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#1
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Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice
I've done it and most likely everyone else on this group has also: Bought a component ill suited for the purpose because you "must have it." This despite knowing better or receiving advice urging otherwise. In this case the component in question is a rear wheel. (One half of a Ritchie Design wheelset whose exact designation escapes me) It has 28 bladed DT spokes laced to a semi-aero rim (the one with off center spoke holes calculated to reduce drive and non-drive side spoke tension differences.) I can't recall whether it was laced 2X or 3X. And the glutton for punishment was a 210 pound friend of mine who used this wheel on his Specialized Sirrus for commuting. Just the sort of riding that would benefit from bladed spokes Against good advice (mine:-) he persisted. First week: Broken spoke. Third week: Another broken spoke. 1 Month or so: Another broken spoke. Most likely a poor initial wheel build contributed to the spoke failures. Perhaps the wheel was never stress relieved or tensioned properly to begin with. Even so, I thought it foolish using a wheel with a such a low spoke count. Upon the first spoke failure, the repair was performed by the LBS that sold him the wheelset. The two following failures were attended to by a wrench at a second LBS. On both occasions the second LBS recommended that the Ritchie wheel not be used. (i.e. Offered sage advice, which my friend disregarded) Then following the third failure and under recommendation by a wrench at a third LBS, the wheel was rebuilt using straight (15) gauge stainless spokes. This was a surprise. It was a mystery to me why the LBS would undertake to relace the wheel rather than recommend a more robust alternative. Fifty kilometers following the rebuild the wheel was well on it's way to failing. Four spokes were so loose I could tighten their nipples without the aid of a wrench. Obviously it wasn't tensioned and/or stress relieved properly. Shoddy work. My advice ; a) Return the wheel to the LBS so the wrench who rebuilt it could explain how his 'guaranteed' work came undone in 50 KM. b) Get a wheel with a higher spoke count; 36 preferably. This has since been heeded. Most of the aggravation - on both the buyer's and seller's part - could've been avoided if the initial LBS that sold him the wheel, steered him to a more suitable choice. A LBS *should* attempt to educate a prospective buyer about a purchase and buyer should consider the info when deciding. (In a perfect world of course) The educated buyer that disregards sound advice and persists in his folly is free to squander his money and complicate his life as he sees fit. I'm curious. To those r.b.t participants who operate bicycle shops: I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a prosperous business relationship. It's to your benefit to have him riding and enjoying his bicycle as much as possible. And to that end, the right equipment and good service are requisite. But at what point do you continue to serve an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his wants is at cross purposes to serving his needs? Have you patently refused to entertain a customer's request in order to, in effect, protect him from himself? luke |
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#2
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Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice
Luca- I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a prosperous business
relationship. It's to your benefit to have him riding and enjoying his bicycle as much as possible. And to that end, the right equipment and good service are requisite BRBR But at what point do you continue to serve an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his wants is at cross purposes to serving his needs? BRBR Since a poor choice by a customer in the end ends up taking more of our time to stand behind what we sold, which means it costs us money, we generally don't do it/sell it. If a 250 pound rider wants a light/low number/thin spoke wheel, we say-sorry...try Excel. Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302 (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene" |
#3
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Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice
Luke wrote in message ...
SCHNIP I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a prosperous business relationship. It's to your benefit to have him riding and enjoying his bicycle as much as possible. And to that end, the right equipment and good service are requisite. But at what point do you continue to serve an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his wants is at cross purposes to serving his needs? Have you patently refused to entertain a customer's request in order to, in effect, protect him from himself? luke It's a wonderful "Catch - 22" situation... If the customer KNOWS what he needs he or she is often VERY resistant to any suggestion the they may be wrong. Often either you are calling them stupid or trying to sell them something different because you make more money... even if it is totally inappropriate. As an aside (and no refrence to you or your post) one of the funniest things in retail is the "expert friend" ... this is the guy who comes along with the buyer to make sure he gets what he really needs. So you usually end up with two people who don't know what they are talking about trying to decide what to buy. Often the only thing you can do is point out the problems he "may" have and the things he may need to Worry about, then suggest the option where he wont have to worry.. In the whole features vs. benefits discussion often the greatest benefit you can sell a customer is "you wont have to worry..." (Hell nobody wants to buy something they'll have to worry about ) I only once had to refuse a customers request... He wanted his bar ends mounted backwards ... pointing back towards him .. and slighly down towards his knees. I told him why it was a bad idea and told him that I would install them the correct way but would not do what he wanted.. sombody in town did though. Finally .. I agree that the wheel he purchased was definately not the best choice but the problems he's having sound far more serious than I would have expected... Unfortunatly since he is on to shop three with the same wheel there is bugger all that can be done now. |
#4
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Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice
So he buys a fairly conventional ritchey wheel with 28 spokes, and has
problems with trueness. breaking spokes, loosening spokes, etc. Sounds like a problem with the initial build. If that wheel was disassembled and put back together again by a "master wheelbuilder" then I am very confident that same 28 spoke wheel would have held up just fine. As a former 200 pounder I have a lot of experience with unreliable OEM wheels that need truing and maintentance all the time and LIGHTER aftermarket wheels (with fewer spokes even) assembled by good builders: Joe Young, and my favorite Dave Thomas. He's 210 pounds, only commutes to work on it, that ritchey wheel would have been fine had it been put together right. In other words, the wheel WAS a suitable choice. Sure not the best choice, but there is no excuse for the kind of problems you described. If I bought a shoddily constructed steel frame, I wouldn't get on a soapbox and declare that steel frames are a bad choice for me. Luke wrote: I've done it and most likely everyone else on this group has also: Bought a component ill suited for the purpose because you "must have it." This despite knowing better or receiving advice urging otherwise. In this case the component in question is a rear wheel. (One half of a Ritchie Design wheelset whose exact designation escapes me) It has 28 bladed DT spokes laced to a semi-aero rim (the one with off center spoke holes calculated to reduce drive and non-drive side spoke tension differences.) I can't recall whether it was laced 2X or 3X. And the glutton for punishment was a 210 pound friend of mine who used this wheel on his Specialized Sirrus for commuting. Just the sort of riding that would benefit from bladed spokes Against good advice (mine:-) he persisted. First week: Broken spoke. Third week: Another broken spoke. 1 Month or so: Another broken spoke. Most likely a poor initial wheel build contributed to the spoke failures. Perhaps the wheel was never stress relieved or tensioned properly to begin with. Even so, I thought it foolish using a wheel with a such a low spoke count. Upon the first spoke failure, the repair was performed by the LBS that sold him the wheelset. The two following failures were attended to by a wrench at a second LBS. On both occasions the second LBS recommended that the Ritchie wheel not be used. (i.e. Offered sage advice, which my friend disregarded) Then following the third failure and under recommendation by a wrench at a third LBS, the wheel was rebuilt using straight (15) gauge stainless spokes. This was a surprise. It was a mystery to me why the LBS would undertake to relace the wheel rather than recommend a more robust alternative. Fifty kilometers following the rebuild the wheel was well on it's way to failing. Four spokes were so loose I could tighten their nipples without the aid of a wrench. Obviously it wasn't tensioned and/or stress relieved properly. Shoddy work. My advice ; a) Return the wheel to the LBS so the wrench who rebuilt it could explain how his 'guaranteed' work came undone in 50 KM. b) Get a wheel with a higher spoke count; 36 preferably. This has since been heeded. Most of the aggravation - on both the buyer's and seller's part - could've been avoided if the initial LBS that sold him the wheel, steered him to a more suitable choice. A LBS *should* attempt to educate a prospective buyer about a purchase and buyer should consider the info when deciding. (In a perfect world of course) The educated buyer that disregards sound advice and persists in his folly is free to squander his money and complicate his life as he sees fit. I'm curious. To those r.b.t participants who operate bicycle shops: I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a prosperous business relationship. It's to your benefit to have him riding and enjoying his bicycle as much as possible. And to that end, the right equipment and good service are requisite. But at what point do you continue to serve an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his wants is at cross purposes to serving his needs? Have you patently refused to entertain a customer's request in order to, in effect, protect him from himself? luke |
#5
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Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice
Luke wrote in message ...
I've done it and most likely everyone else on this group has also: Bought a component ill suited for the purpose because you "must have it." This despite knowing better or receiving advice urging otherwise. In this case the component in question is a rear wheel. (One half of a Ritchie Design wheelset whose exact designation escapes me) It has 28 bladed DT spokes laced to a semi-aero rim (the one with off center spoke holes calculated to reduce drive and non-drive side spoke tension differences.) I can't recall whether it was laced 2X or 3X. And the glutton for punishment was a 210 pound friend of mine who used this wheel on his Specialized Sirrus for commuting. Just the sort of riding that would benefit from bladed spokes Against good advice (mine:-) he persisted. First week: Broken spoke. Third week: Another broken spoke. 1 Month or so: Another broken spoke. Most likely a poor initial wheel build contributed to the spoke failures. Perhaps the wheel was never stress relieved or tensioned properly to begin with. Even so, I thought it foolish using a wheel with a such a low spoke count. Upon the first spoke failure, the repair was performed by the LBS that sold him the wheelset. The two following failures were attended to by a wrench at a second LBS. On both occasions the second LBS recommended that the Ritchie wheel not be used. (i.e. Offered sage advice, which my friend disregarded) Then following the third failure and under recommendation by a wrench at a third LBS, the wheel was rebuilt using straight (15) gauge stainless spokes. This was a surprise. It was a mystery to me why the LBS would undertake to relace the wheel rather than recommend a more robust alternative. Fifty kilometers following the rebuild the wheel was well on it's way to failing. Four spokes were so loose I could tighten their nipples without the aid of a wrench. Obviously it wasn't tensioned and/or stress relieved properly. Shoddy work. My advice ; a) Return the wheel to the LBS so the wrench who rebuilt it could explain how his 'guaranteed' work came undone in 50 KM. b) Get a wheel with a higher spoke count; 36 preferably. This has since been heeded. Most of the aggravation - on both the buyer's and seller's part - could've been avoided if the initial LBS that sold him the wheel, steered him to a more suitable choice. A LBS *should* attempt to educate a prospective buyer about a purchase and buyer should consider the info when deciding. (In a perfect world of course) The educated buyer that disregards sound advice and persists in his folly is free to squander his money and complicate his life as he sees fit. I'm curious. To those r.b.t participants who operate bicycle shops: I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a prosperous business relationship. It's to your benefit to have him riding and enjoying his bicycle as much as possible. And to that end, the right equipment and good service are requisite. But at what point do you continue to serve an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his wants is at cross purposes to serving his needs? Have you patently refused to entertain a customer's request in order to, in effect, protect him from himself? luke I have a similar set of Ritchey wheels that had spoke breakage problems. I called Ritchey and they said they said some of the wheels were manufactured with defective spokes. I sent the wheel back per their instructions, it was rebuilt and I haven't broken a spoke since. |
#6
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Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice
"Luke" wrote in message ... I've done it and most likely everyone else on this group has also: Bought a component ill suited for the purpose because you "must have it." This despite knowing better or receiving advice urging otherwise. In this case the component in question is a rear wheel. (One half of a Ritchie Design wheelset whose exact designation escapes me) It has 28 bladed DT spokes laced to a semi-aero rim (the one with off center spoke holes calculated to reduce drive and non-drive side spoke tension differences.) I can't recall whether it was laced 2X or 3X. And the glutton for punishment was a 210 pound friend of mine who used this wheel on his Specialized Sirrus for commuting. Just the sort of riding that would benefit from bladed spokes Against good advice (mine:-) he persisted. First week: Broken spoke. Third week: Another broken spoke. 1 Month or so: Another broken spoke. Most likely a poor initial wheel build contributed to the spoke failures. Perhaps the wheel was never stress relieved or tensioned properly to begin with. Even so, I thought it foolish using a wheel with a such a low spoke count. Upon the first spoke failure, the repair was performed by the LBS that sold him the wheelset. The two following failures were attended to by a wrench at a second LBS. On both occasions the second LBS recommended that the Ritchie wheel not be used. (i.e. Offered sage advice, which my friend disregarded) Then following the third failure and under recommendation by a wrench at a third LBS, the wheel was rebuilt using straight (15) gauge stainless spokes. This was a surprise. It was a mystery to me why the LBS would undertake to relace the wheel rather than recommend a more robust alternative. Fifty kilometers following the rebuild the wheel was well on it's way to failing. Four spokes were so loose I could tighten their nipples without the aid of a wrench. Obviously it wasn't tensioned and/or stress relieved properly. Shoddy work. My advice ; a) Return the wheel to the LBS so the wrench who rebuilt it could explain how his 'guaranteed' work came undone in 50 KM. b) Get a wheel with a higher spoke count; 36 preferably. This has since been heeded. Most of the aggravation - on both the buyer's and seller's part - could've been avoided if the initial LBS that sold him the wheel, steered him to a more suitable choice. A LBS *should* attempt to educate a prospective buyer about a purchase and buyer should consider the info when deciding. (In a perfect world of course) The educated buyer that disregards sound advice and persists in his folly is free to squander his money and complicate his life as he sees fit. I'm curious. To those r.b.t participants who operate bicycle shops: I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a prosperous business relationship. It's to your benefit to have him riding and enjoying his bicycle as much as possible. And to that end, the right equipment and good service are requisite. But at what point do you continue to serve an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his wants is at cross purposes to serving his needs? Have you patently refused to entertain a customer's request in order to, in effect, protect him from himself? luke Unsound advice aside (I agree that some of us often buy what don't need or even need to use) - Ritchey has had a problem with some of their pre-built wheelsets a year or two ago. It had to do with exactly this, continued spoke failure. And the problem apparently had something to do with the hubs (bad finish at the drill-holes?) This has been fixed since, and even the one you mentioned is a lower-spoke wheel, should not present such a continued problem... Jan |
#7
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Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice
Luke writes:
I'm curious. To those r.b.t participants who operate bicycle shops: I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a prosperous business relationship. It's to your benefit to have him riding and enjoying his bicycle as much as possible. And to that end, the right equipment and good service are requisite. But at what point do you continue to serve an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his wants is at cross purposes to serving his needs? Have you patently refused to entertain a customer's request in order to, in effect, protect him from himself? As Jesse Ventura observed, "you can't legislate against stupidity." All the shop owner can do is warn the buyer that this product is not well suited to the purpose. Most customers will heed your advice; the ones in Lycra will heed what they read on the Internet or in bike rags. |
#8
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Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice
snip I have a similar set of Ritchey wheels that had spoke breakage problems. I called Ritchey and they said they said some of the wheels were manufactured with defective spokes. I sent the wheel back per their instructions, it was rebuilt and I haven't broken a spoke since. I have a pair of Ritchey Pro wheels (20/28 like the OP's) and have never had a problem with them. I'm running 180-190# right now 'cause my back's jacked. Now if I'd bought the WCS version (20/24), I may have had a few more issues, but I was smarter than that. M |
#9
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Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice
In article SG3pc.47997$Z%5.32617@okepread01, ari wrote:
So he buys a fairly conventional ritchey wheel with 28 spokes, and has problems with trueness. breaking spokes, loosening spokes, etc. Sounds like a problem with the initial build. If that wheel was disassembled and put back together again by a "master wheelbuilder" then I am very confident that same 28 spoke wheel would have held up just fine. As a former 200 pounder I have a lot of experience with unreliable OEM wheels that need truing and maintentance all the time and LIGHTER aftermarket wheels (with fewer spokes even) assembled by good builders: Joe Young, and my favorite Dave Thomas. He's 210 pounds, only commutes to work on it, that ritchey wheel would have been fine had it been put together right. In other words, the wheel WAS a suitable choice. I disagree with the assertion that this wheel is suitable for the purpose and circumstances attending it's use by my friend. With it's bladed spokes and a lower spoke count the Ritchie obviously was not designed with the intent of carting a Clydesdale and his luggage to work over rough city streets. Time trialling or racing is it's enviroment. Why would it be considered appropriate if it's to used in a manner counter to that which it was designed for? That the wheel was initially built - and rebuilt - poorly was alluded to in the original post. No argument there. And yes, you can commute on it. Just as you can - to overstate the case - buy a full suspension MTB equipped with knobbies for the express purpose of riding exclusively on asphalt. (Quite a common sight) Nothing wrong with it. Nothing that much right with it either. Sure not the best choice, Not even a good choice. That option would presume using a component for it's intended purpose. That which it was designed for. but there is no excuse for the kind of problems you described. If I bought a shoddily constructed steel frame, I wouldn't get on a soapbox and declare that steel frames are a bad choice for me. My contention is not so much in the quality of construction, although that was contributory, but rather the quality of use that it's destined for. Accordingly, a more applicable analogy would be if you bought a perfectly constructed steel road frame to ride single track/mountain trails. Regardless of it's meticulous construction the frame would still be bad choice. luke |
#10
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Sounding off: On unsound wheels and sound advice
In article , ajames54
wrote: Luke wrote in message ... SCHNIP I understand a satisfied customer is essential to a prosperous business relationship. It's to your benefit to have him riding and enjoying his bicycle as much as possible. And to that end, the right equipment and good service are requisite. But at what point do you continue to serve an obstinate customer knowing that to satisfy his wants is at cross purposes to serving his needs? Have you patently refused to entertain a customer's request in order to, in effect, protect him from himself? luke It's a wonderful "Catch - 22" situation... If the customer KNOWS what he needs he or she is often VERY resistant to any suggestion the they may be wrong. Often either you are calling them stupid or trying to sell them something different because you make more money... even if it is totally inappropriate. As an aside (and no refrence to you or your post) one of the funniest things in retail is the "expert friend" ... this is the guy who comes along with the buyer to make sure he gets what he really needs. So you usually end up with two people who don't know what they are talking about trying to decide what to buy. snip Yeah, I've been a silent witness in shops when that very situation has arisen. ;-) Shop employees must have the patience of Job. luke |
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