"No sports mistake is supposed to be fatal"

"One thing I know for sure is that no sports mistake is supposed to lead to
a death. No sports mistake is supposed to be fatal," President Mikheil
Saakashvili told reporters Saturday.

As tragic as the death of the luger was, and as seemingly-obvious the
dangers of that track were, it's still hard to believe someone making that
statement, and have it embraced by so many others.

Cycling, *all* motorsports, and (rarely but sometimes) high school football,
both American and European, and many others, have had their share of
"mistakes" that lead to death. We are, in our daily lives, presented with
endless possibility for mistakes that could lead to our demise. We are
expected to learn how to drive safely, how to ride safely, learn & respect
the limits of the equipment we use.

In sport, the game is to push those limits to the edge, and the penalties
for going beyond that edge have always been harsh. What would we have to do
to remove those penalties? Neutralize descents in cycling? Where do we draw
the line? How long before we see a reasonable dialog on the terrible Luge
accident as opposed to "shocked" sports writers who relish the spectacle but
not the potential outcome?

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
"One thing I know for sure is that no sports mistake is supposed to
lead to a death. No sports mistake is supposed to be fatal,"
President Mikheil Saakashvili told reporters Saturday.

As tragic as the death of the luger was, and as seemingly-obvious the
dangers of that track were, it's still hard to believe someone making
that statement, and have it embraced by so many others.

Cycling, *all* motorsports, and (rarely but sometimes) high school
football, both American and European, and many others, have had their
share of "mistakes" that lead to death. We are, in our daily lives,
presented with endless possibility for mistakes that could lead to
our demise. We are expected to learn how to drive safely, how to ride
safely, learn & respect the limits of the equipment we use.

In sport, the game is to push those limits to the edge, and the
penalties for going beyond that edge have always been harsh. What
would we have to do to remove those penalties? Neutralize descents in
cycling? Where do we draw the line? How long before we see a
reasonable dialog on the terrible Luge accident as opposed to
"shocked" sports writers who relish the spectacle but not the
potential outcome?

Shorter Mike Jacoubowsky: "A sports mistake *is* supposed to lead to a
death."

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
In sport, the game is to push those limits to the edge, and the
penalties for going beyond that edge have always been harsh. What would
we have to do to remove those penalties? Neutralize descents in cycling?
Where do we draw the line? How long before we see a reasonable dialog on
the terrible Luge accident as opposed to "shocked" sports writers who
relish the spectacle but not the potential outcome?

Just curious Mike, have you seen the video?

In cycling it is very common to put haybales in front of
stuff like what killed the luger. In facilities that are
purpose built for cycling, stuff like that doesn't exist.

Preventing that death wasn't a particularly difficult or
expensive task. It was totally unnecessary.

Bob Schwartz

"Bob Schwartz" wrote in message
...
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
In sport, the game is to push those limits to the edge, and the penalties
for going beyond that edge have always been harsh. What would we have to
do to remove those penalties? Neutralize descents in cycling? Where do we
draw the line? How long before we see a reasonable dialog on the terrible
Luge accident as opposed to "shocked" sports writers who relish the
spectacle but not the potential outcome?

Just curious Mike, have you seen the video?

In cycling it is very common to put haybales in front of
stuff like what killed the luger. In facilities that are
purpose built for cycling, stuff like that doesn't exist.

Preventing that death wasn't a particularly difficult or
expensive task. It was totally unnecessary.

Bob Schwartz

Bob: I agree that the death was preventable. Padding poles is no different
from placing hay bales around parking meters on a crit course. It's so
obvious you just do it without much thought. Why wasn't it done? I don't
know.But I disagree with the idea that all sports have to be so safe that
the possibility of death can be removed completely.

The basic concept of competitive sledding, luge or otherwise, is inherently
dangerous. The Georgian President's quote, and all those who have seized
upon it, is a reactionary response to something that goes a lot deeper than
the safety of a luge course.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Bob Schwartz wrote:
In cycling it is very common to put haybales in front of
stuff like what killed the luger. In facilities that are
purpose built for cycling, stuff like that doesn't exist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fge-LJw_iII

On Feb 14, 11:22*am, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:
"One thing I know for sure is that no sports mistake is supposed to lead to
a death. No sports mistake is supposed to be fatal," President Mikheil
Saakashvili told reporters Saturday.

As tragic as the death of the luger was, and as seemingly-obvious the
dangers of that track were, it's still hard to believe someone making that
statement, and have it embraced by so many others.

Mike,

No sports mistake is supposed to be fatal.
A sports mistake may accidentally lead to fatality,
but it isn't _supposed_ to be fatal. That would be
gladiatorism, not sports.

The Georgian president's statement is perhaps
overly broad, but in the heat of the moment it is
understandable.

The luge track situation looks like a clusterf*k and
after reading this article
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/sp...14longman.html
the officials aren't exactly behaving with distinction.

Ben

On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 11:19:00 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

No sports mistake is supposed to be fatal.
A sports mistake may accidentally lead to fatality,
but it isn't _supposed_ to be fatal. That would be
gladiatorism, not sports.

Think you parsed the statement wrong. At the very least, some sports
mistakes are by their nature probably fatal. If the probability is
over 50%, IMO the statement is simple sophism. Having watched a few of
the new snowmobile sports where taking air is just the beginning of
the spectacle, I don't believe that the possibility of serious injury
and death is not part of why people watch. Flipping snowmobiles in the
air and say, "Gee, nobody expected him to die when he only made 180
degrees of the 360?"

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

On Feb 14, 12:34*pm, wrote:
On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 11:19:00 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
No sports mistake is supposed to be fatal.
A sports mistake may accidentally lead to fatality,
but it isn't _supposed_ to be fatal. *That would be
gladiatorism, not sports.

Think you parsed the statement wrong. At the very least, some sports
mistakes are by their nature probably fatal. If the probability is
over 50%, IMO the statement is simple sophism. Having watched a few of
the new snowmobile sports where taking air is just the beginning of
the spectacle, I don't believe that the possibility of serious injury
and death is not part of why people watch. Flipping snowmobiles in the
air and say, "Gee, nobody expected him to die when he only made 180
degrees of the 360?"

First, let's agree that parsing the Georgian president's
statement very closely is probably silly because it was
almost certainly translated. That said I'll do it anyway.
Yes, I chose one of two ways to parse it, to make a point.
"Supposed" is ambiguous because it implies intentionality
but doesn't make clear whose intention. One obvious
way is the way Mike parsed it, essentially "I don't suppose
that any sports mistake should ever be fatal." Another
is suppose as in the implication of an action, like
"You were supposed to take out the trash" or
"When you press the Prius brake pedal, the car is
supposed to stop." One does not enter an Olympic
event with the supposition that a mistake will _necessarily_
lead to death.

It's all about probabilities of risk. Course designers are
supposed to design a course such that the consequences
of a mistake are highly unlikely to be fatal, but, I admit, not
zero. There have been fatalities in Olympic-type events before,
if not at the Olympics (World cup skiing is the example I can
think of), but they aren't common.

If the probability of somebody getting killed is really high
(IMO it doesn't have to be 50%, even 5% is extremely high)
than I don't think it's sports, it's gladiatorial exhibitionism.
Snowmobile jumping, for me, falls in that category, even
more so than motocross.
Motorsports are clearly a lot more dangerous than most
other events. However, there are no motorsports events
at the Olympics.

Ben

On Feb 14, 1:44*pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:

.But I disagree with the idea that all sports have to be so safe that
the possibility of death can be removed completely.

dumbass,

no one is saying that.

we had a person from our insurer come talk to us (group of organizers)
and they agreed, the riskiness makes the sport exciting so you can't
eliminate it, but there has be proper care of participants and
spectators (proper course design, safety equipment, medics, etc.).

On Feb 14, 2:15*pm, "
wrote:
On Feb 14, 12:34*pm, wrote:



On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 11:19:00 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
No sports mistake is supposed to be fatal.
A sports mistake may accidentally lead to fatality,
but it isn't _supposed_ to be fatal. *That would be
gladiatorism, not sports.

Think you parsed the statement wrong. At the very least, some sports
mistakes are by their nature probably fatal. If the probability is
over 50%, IMO the statement is simple sophism. Having watched a few of
the new snowmobile sports where taking air is just the beginning of
the spectacle, I don't believe that the possibility of serious injury
and death is not part of why people watch. Flipping snowmobiles in the
air and say, "Gee, nobody expected him to die when he only made 180
degrees of the 360?"

First, let's agree that parsing the Georgian president's
statement very closely is probably silly because it was
almost certainly translated. *That said I'll do it anyway.
Yes, I chose one of two ways to parse it, to make a point.
"Supposed" is ambiguous because it implies intentionality
but doesn't make clear whose intention. *One obvious
way is the way Mike parsed it, essentially *"I don't suppose
that any sports mistake should ever be fatal." *Another
is suppose as in the implication of an action, like
"You were supposed to take out the trash" or
"When you press the Prius brake pedal, the car is
supposed to stop." *One does not enter an Olympic
event with the supposition that a mistake will _necessarily_
lead to death.

It's all about probabilities of risk. *Course designers are
supposed to design a course such that the consequences
of a mistake are highly unlikely to be fatal, but, I admit, not
zero. *There have been fatalities in Olympic-type events before,
if not at the Olympics (World cup skiing is the example I can
think of), but they aren't common.

If the probability of somebody getting killed is really high
(IMO it doesn't have to be 50%, even 5% is extremely high)
than I don't think it's sports, it's gladiatorial exhibitionism.
Snowmobile jumping, for me, falls in that category, even
more so than motocross.
Motorsports are clearly a lot more dangerous than most
other events. *However, there are no motorsports events
at the Olympics.

Ben

The Olympics ask for faster, higher, and stronger. Great aspirations
for all of us, but the TV networks also want speed, danger, and
glamor. They regale us with back stories on the athletes, hype the
darlings of the various sports, and then go all mealy mouth when a
hyped athlete crashes and burns. Is Lindsey Vonn a sociopath because
she hid a (possibly) performance-limiting injury? No. She's a high-
visibility skier, with sponsors to satisfy, as well as records to
pursue. The Olympic ideal(s) were sold out decades ago; the Olympics
and their respective organizations are deeply corrupt, and not likely
to change when billions change hands around venues, TV networks, and
vendors/sponsors. It's a racket. People will get killed - either by
having construction trucks crush them, or by smacking into obstacles
on a course.
Tom