Helmet saves life of bike store owner hit by car......

mrbubl Wrote:
...If not wearing a helmet on your head is safer for you and yours, more
power to yah and hope you are an organ donor so your choices may help
others.

mrbubl

Well there you go then... finish it off with a question begging howler.
What moronic drivel - obviously you don't even have enough intelligence
to realise that your petitio principii argument is fatally flawed.

Looks like a compound fallacy - ad bacalum and petitio principii. Look
them up and learn something.
I'd guess you're a brainless dipstick trying to appear intelligent -
you blew it.


--
RogerDodger

In article , says...

And none of it addressed what I said. If a cyclist has a bad fall and hits
his head and the helmet does its job and he/she gets up and rides happily on
his/her merry way, they don't end up in any statistics. But they were quite
possibly saved from serious injury by a helmet.

I can't believe I'm getting involved in a helmet thread....

Your argument would work if helmets and bicycles had been invented at the
same time. But they weren't -- we have more than a hundred years of data
on cycling without helmets. So it should be easy to detect a significant
reduction in head injuries from cycling when helmets came along. Except
that cycling head injuries were never very numerous to begin with, and
they haven't shown the sort of dramatic declines that helmet advocates
suggest we should.

So, in your hypothetical, as long as the injury to a helmetless rider was
so minor that no medical attention would have been sought, then no, the
statistics won't include that accident. But if the helmet was really a
dramatic improvement, then when we compared cycling head injury rates
from 20 years ago with those of today, we'd see those non-reported
incidents as a reduction in head injury rates.

Feel free to try to find evidence that this has actually happened at
anything like the rates helmet zealots purport it would.

Now, of course, I do wear a helmet when I ride. They're very good at
reducing the minor injuries from the light impacts they're designed for.

I have no expectation that this magical foam talisman will protect me
from a fatal accident, but it will keep me from getting road rash on my
scalp again, like I did when I was hit by a car, thrown through the air,
and dragged my head down a curb without a helmet. (No serious injuries,
thank goodness, though if I'd been wearing a helmet I'm sure someone
would insist it had saved my life.)

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Updated Bicycle Touring Books List:
http://www.phred.org/~josh/bike/tourbooks.html

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 16:34:51 +1100, RogerDodger wrote:


psycholist Wrote:
...You're free to believe whatever foolish thing you want to believe.
I'm not
arguing for mandatory helmet laws. I just know that I'm very glad I
had my
helmet on when I was hit. And it's my opinion that any serious cyclist
who
logs serious mileage is playing a foolish game of roulette if they
believe
they'll never get hit. And let me ask you something. If you knew you
were
going to get hit, would you rather be wearing a helmet or not?

Bob C.



Bob, feel free to believe whatever foolish thing you want to believe -
and believe me your beliefs are unbelievably foolish. I for one would
argue that I am in fact safer riding without a helmet (as I do) for the
good reason that wearing a helmet compromises the innate and unconscious
reflex actions that tend to avoid head impacts. The awareness of an
exposed head is has a sort of subconscious programming effect and
ensures that the natural reflexes of avoidance of head impact will
continue to be the priority reaction response in an accident.

What amazes me is how people can be so lacking in psychological acuity
- so foolish as to delude themselves as you do.

Roger

I totally agree. I feel much safer riding without a helmet, as I am more
conscious of the fact that I should be riding alertly and safely to avoid
accidents in the first place. (As all bicycle riders, helmetted or not,
should be!) Unfortunately, here in NZ riding without a helmet is not
really an option, as the police here are utterly savage and ferocious in
enforcing this stupid counterproductive law. I simply gave up after
several episodes of starting any encounter with the police from the big
disadvantage that I had already broken the law. But at least I am still
riding, not like many of my countrypeople. The numbers of child bike
riders have reduced by about 80% since this draconian law was passed and
enforced; and the number of lady bike riders by about 90%. It is rare now
to see bicycling commuters less than 35 years old.
I am fortunate to be married to a non-New Zealander, which gives me an
instant emigration possibility which I will probably take up rather soon.

Peter

--
If you are careful enough in life, nothing bad -- or
good -- will ever happen to you.

RogerDodger wrote:
mrbubl Wrote:

...If not wearing a helmet on your head is safer for you and yours, more
power to yah and hope you are an organ donor so your choices may help
others.

mrbubl


Well there you go then... finish it off with a question begging howler.
What moronic drivel - obviously you don't even have enough intelligence
to realise that your petitio principii argument is fatally flawed.

Fatally flawed........you crack me up! Must be from the brain injury
suffered from lack of head protection.


Looks like a compound fallacy - ad bacalum and petitio principii. Look
them up and learn something.

thank you professori!

I'd guess you're a brainless dipstick trying to appear intelligent -
you blew it.

No, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night........

mrbubl

How about those taking a shower without a helmet? Again, many times as
many people receiving head injuries from shower use than bicycle use.


Doesn't everyone put their helmet on when they take a shower?
Is it only me?
http://hometown.aol.com/lbuset/

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
mrbubl wrote:


If not wearing a helmet on your head is safer for you and yours, more
power to yah and hope you are an organ donor so your choices may help
others.

The "organ donor" line is common, tiresome, and flat out wrong.

One of my best friends is an organ recipient. After his transplant, he
became an educator for a transplant organization.

He assures me that cyclists never have, and never will, be significant
sources of organ donations. First, there are FAR too few cyclist deaths.
In the US, only about 750 cyclists get killed each year.

Compare with about 40,000 motorists;
roughly 15,000 people who die from falls;
about 6000 pedestrians hit by cars;
perhaps 5000 drowning victims;
not to mention about over 700,000 heart attack victims and 150,000 stroke
victims (the main sources of organ donors, he claims).

Furthermore, he pointed out that (contrary to the hype) most cyclist
fatalities are _not_ nice clean corpses that regrettably died from a light
tap on the head. Instead, almost all have been hit by cars and suffered
the sorts of multiple internal injuries that ruin organs.

So, as usual, another trite piece of pro-helmet propaganda is worthless
when examined seriously.


--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com, replace
with cc.ysu dot edu]


And equally as usual, another case of COMPLETELY misleading statistics. Of
course cyclists aren't a significant source of organ donations. There
aren't that many of us. What's relevant is to look at the number of organ
donations relative to the number of cyclists. What would also be more
relevant to this newsgroup is to toss out all the incidents involving people
who ride once a decade and focus on those of us who spend hours and hours
training on the road. How many of us, because of all of our hours of
exposure to traffic and all the miles we log, end up having a serious
incident at one time or another?

If I merely consider our cycling club, I can think of dozens of incidents in
the past couple of years where people were hit by cars, dogs ran into the
road and took them out, they went down in a paceline touch of wheels, etc.
I can also recall dozens of statements like, "were it not for my helmet, I'd
have been way more seriously hurt."

Can I cite statistics to back this up? No. Has anyone produced any
relevant statistics that apply to this population of serious cyclists who
log many hours on the roads? NO!

Am I pro helmet law? NO! Am I pro helmet? YES! Above all, I'm anti
statistics. I know statistics quite well and I know they can be quite
limited, quite biased and quite inaccurate.

Bob C.

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
Dan wrote:


I've seen these arguments so many times and always wanted to say

something but never have. It's so simple, if you don't care about your
safety, then don't wear a helmet. If you hit your noggin', you're gonna
be a vegetable or die more than likely.

People have been hitting their heads since prehistory. Cyclists have been
riding without helmets, by the hundreds of millions, for well over 100
years. The idea that every fall off a bike or every bump on the head is a
likely fatality is absolute nonsense.

Cycling isn't even on the map for fatal head injuries! HI fatalities in
the US are estimated to be between 56,000 and 115,000 per year, depending
who's doing the estimating. (The lower figure is probably more reliable.)
Cycling fatalities from _all_ injuries are only about 750 per year.
Cycling head injury fatalities are less than 1% of the country's total HI
fatalities!


Here in Texas, you have the option, I don't care
what others do to look cool, but I look pretty cool as a walking,talking
Texan that wears a helmet.

When you're walking, keep that helmet on. There are far more fatal HIs
from simple falls than from cycling.

Keep it on when you're driving, too. Motorists are roughly 50% of the
fatal HIs in the US. Again, cyclists are less than 1%.

I'm trimming your horror story. If you're really an EMT, don't tell us
about pictures you've seen. Tell us about the last 100 serious (say,
hospitalizable) brain injuries you've hauled in.

If your area is representative of national stats, no more than one of them
would be a cyclist.

So: What's the count?

(Hint: The last 3 EMTs I've asked never responded. They all slunk away.)

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com, replace
with cc.ysu dot edu]


As usual Frank, your statistics are entirely without merit or validity.

You say that cyclists account for less than 1% of fatal HI injuries and
that's your argument why we shouldn't worry about wearing helmets. Well,
Frank, what percent of the entire population do you suppose we represent.
Index that figure ... if you know what that means. THEN you'll have a
relevant analysis. Also, index that figure using only those cyclists who
are dedicated roadies who spend hours a week on the road.

I've heard so many lame arguments from people who say they've never had an
incident, but when you grill them a bit, you find out they ride maybe on
average a couple of hours a month or less. I ride a couple of hours a DAY.
The more you're out there, the more potential for something to happen. I
haven't seen any statistics yet that take that into account.

Bob C.

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
eq2 sux wrote:

Frank Krygowski wrote in
:

Tell us about the last 100 serious
(say, hospitalizable) brain injuries you've hauled in.

If your area is representative of national stats, no more than one of
them would be a cyclist.

So: What's the count?

(Hint: The last 3 EMTs I've asked never responded. They all slunk
away.)


I'll see 100 cars before I see a bicycle. So, we talking percentages or
are you just giving lip service for the sake of argueing.

I've been talking absolute numbers, I've been talking percentages, and
I've been talking risk per hour of exposure. Take your pick. By any of
these measures, cycling is NOT very dangerous.

I'm sorry if this is hard for you to understand. I'm sorry if it
challenges your preconceived notions. But it's fact.

If you don't
want to wear a helmet, then don't.

Why, thank you for your gracious permission!


but if one person does wear it becuz
of my horror story then maybe that's one less i'll see laying in the
road.

Numbers, please! These vague hints of horrors just don't make it. How
many seriously head injured cyclists have you seen lying in the road in
the past ten years? How many seriously head injured motorists have you
pulled out of cars, or off the road?

Nationally, the numbers favor the cyclists. Nationally, the per-hour
figures also favor the cyclists. And if you don't understand "per hour"
let me know, and I'll explain it to you!

No, I'm not really an EMT, I just love saying EMT,jerk.

I have no idea if you are or aren't. I know what's happened with the last
few folks who claimed to be EMTs. When asked for real numbers, they left
in a huff.

Since you're not giving numbers either (and are even changing your screen
name) I assume you're in the same situation: Caught with your data down!


--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com, replace
with cc.ysu dot edu]


No it's not. It's more misleading statistics. See my earlier reply.
Without indexing these figures to the population of cyclists ... and mores
specifically, the population of dedicated roadies (for the sake of relevance
to these cycling newsgroups), your figures are MEANINGLESS!

Bob C.

mrbubl wrote:
RogerDodger wrote:
mrbubl Wrote:
...If not wearing a helmet on your head is safer for you and yours, more
power to yah and hope you are an organ donor so your choices may help
others.

mrbubl


Well there you go then... finish it off with a question begging howler.
What moronic drivel - obviously you don't even have enough intelligence
to realise that your petitio principii argument is fatally flawed.

Fatally flawed........you crack me up! Must be from the brain injury
suffered from lack of head protection.

Another helmet troll more interested in winning the argument than in
learning the truth.

plonk

Austin
--
I'm pedaling as fast as I durn well please!
There are no X characters in my address

Frank Krygowski wrote:
snip
but if one person does wear it becuz
of my horror story then maybe that's one less i'll see laying in the
road.

Numbers, please! These vague hints of horrors just don't make it. How
many seriously head injured cyclists have you seen lying in the road in
the past ten years? How many seriously head injured motorists have you
pulled out of cars, or off the road?

Indeed! It is interesting that he didn't pull an incident from his
experience, but from a photograph as part of his training!

Having received First Responders training myself, I know that almost all of
those photos are faked, and are intended to weed out those who will crawl to
the side of the road and loose their cookies every time they respond to a
gory scene.

Austin
--
I'm pedaling as fast as I durn well please!
There are no X characters in my address