UPGRADING AN OLDER BIKE

"Dan Daniel" wrote:

"biker bob" wrote:
it's a seven speed, with all components being
SUNTOUR GPX. Are they still in business? Will it make a difference that
they aren't SHIMANO?

Alas, SunTour is no more. You can try using your SunTour rear der with the
STI levers. Creative attachment of the shift cable to the der may allow it
to work.

But if not, ANY modern Shimano derailleur such as the inexpensive Sora or
Tiagra will work fine.

Art Harris


Will this require a new rear wheel to hold a Shimano cassette if he is
switching to STI? Maybe his wheel is for a freewheel. Are 7-speed
Shimano freewheels still around? Or by 1989, was Suntour compatible
with Shimano indexing?

His existing wheel and freewheel (7 speed) with work fine with the 7-speed
STI levers. Yes, Shimano 7-speed freewheels are still around, but even a
SunTour freewheel should work.

Art Harris

Thanks again, Art, Dan, Sheldon and the others for your comments. I
went for a short ride yesterday after making minor adjustments to the
rear brakes and front derailer. I was amazed at how well everything
worked. I'm thinking now about taking it back to the dealer where I
bought it and just getting it cleaned up and serviced and tuned up,
etc., and riding it that way for a while until I decide exactly what to
do. I will inquire about a longer handlebar stem and do that now if
they have something in stock, but was wondering what all I should have
them do now as far a maintenance goes. I would think that with
everything stock and original, (tires, tubes, grease, cables, etc, )
that all that should be serviced. 'The tires don't even appear to be
cracked.
What are your thoughts on the maintenance for now?

Thanks again,
Bob

Biker Bob wrote:

What are your thoughts on the maintenance for now?

New brake cables and pads. Modern housings have a lot less friction,
giving more braking power. And the inexpensive Kool Stop Salmon
"Continental" pads are a favorite of many here for their immunity to
picking up grit.
http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/brake...ml#continental

If the tires aren't worn or cracked, no need to replace them. Tubes
last forever.

If the seat post and stem haven't been moved in 12 years, they may be
stuck. I'd check and grease both.

Hubs and BB may need to be re-packed with grease.

Check wheel tightness and true.
New cushioned handlebar tape (I like Profile).

Art Harris

On 2 Jan 2005 06:20:34 -0800, "biker bob"
wrote:

Thanks again, Art, Dan, Sheldon and the others for your comments. I
went for a short ride yesterday after making minor adjustments to the
rear brakes and front derailer. I was amazed at how well everything
worked. I'm thinking now about taking it back to the dealer where I
bought it and just getting it cleaned up and serviced and tuned up,
etc., and riding it that way for a while until I decide exactly what to
do. I will inquire about a longer handlebar stem and do that now if
they have something in stock, but was wondering what all I should have
them do now as far a maintenance goes. I would think that with
everything stock and original, (tires, tubes, grease, cables, etc, )
that all that should be serviced. 'The tires don't even appear to be
cracked.
What are your thoughts on the maintenance for now?

Thanks again,
Bob

Along with Art's recommendations-

Make sure the headset is properly adjusted. Might be good to have it
cleaned out. When I have acquired old steel bikes, half of the time
the headset is beat because of lack of maintenance and bad adjustment.
The other half have had fine headsets that I just cleaned and
regreased.

Considering what you are planning to do- ride for a bit and then
decide how you want to upgrade- *do not* let them put on a new chain.
The chain, chainwheels, and rear cogs form a matched set over time
from wear, and changing one part can mean having to change all the
parts. Wait until you are sure what is going to happen to your drive
train before you change any parts.

I'll repeat what Art said on the brakes- new cables, housing, and
pads. Don't even think twice about getting this done.

Will this require a new rear wheel to hold a Shimano cassette if he is
switching to STI? Maybe his wheel is for a freewheel. Are 7-speed
Shimano freewheels still around? Or by 1989, was Suntour compatible
with Shimano indexing?

Boy, I'm really sounding like the party-pooper here!

#1: Suntour & Shimano cogs had different spacing, with Shimano basically
running the same spacing from top-to-bottom, while Suntour used wider
spacing for the first couple of cogs. They do not interchange nicely; this
was a common issue in the way-back days when people thought they would. You
can make them sorta work, but not very well.

Suntour later on came out with a series of cassettes (not freewheels, to the
best of my recollection) with Shimano-like spacing, which meant that
Suntour now had equipment that wasn't compatible with itself. Sigh.

#1b: But... if you've got a freehweel, not cassette, you're in luck. Because
you can still get a (limited) selection of 7-speed Shimano freewheels. Well,
it might be that all you can get is a 14-28, but that isn't bad. So if
you've got a Suntour *freehweel* wheel, you're much better off and won't
have to replace the wheel. You may have to respace it though, as I don't
think you can fit a standard 7-speed freewheel onto your present setup (it
was probably a "narrow" Suntour freewheel).

#2: Sheldon doesn't think you need to change your brakes, but my experience
is that the Soras, which are made for the leverage of a dual-pivot brake,
will definitely work better with the proper brakes than with the
single-pivot models that Suntour used back in the day.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Dan Daniel" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 09:50:49 -0500, "Arthur Harris"
wrote:

"biker bob" wrote:
it's a seven speed, with all components being
SUNTOUR GPX. Are they still in business? Will it make a difference that
they aren't SHIMANO?

Alas, SunTour is no more. You can try using your SunTour rear der with the
STI levers. Creative attachment of the shift cable to the der may allow it
to work.

But if not, ANY modern Shimano derailleur such as the inexpensive Sora or
Tiagra will work fine.

Art Harris


Will this require a new rear wheel to hold a Shimano cassette if he is
switching to STI? Maybe his wheel is for a freewheel. Are 7-speed
Shimano freewheels still around? Or by 1989, was Suntour compatible
with Shimano indexing?

... if you want to upgrade to the STI shifting, where you have the
shifting & braking integrated into the same lever, you may need to make
more changes to your bike than is really practical, cost-wise (STI
levers, dual-pivot brakes if you don't have them already, possible new
rear wheel if it won't accommodate at least a 7-speed index-compatible
cassette, and, if front shifting is a priority, either new chainrings or
a crankset... in addition to front & rear derailleurs).

That's not reasonable. A 1989 bike is already gonna be 7-speed, and I'm
pretty sure it was Shimano equipped.

If so, all he needs is a new handlebar stem, such as a Nitto Technomic,
($40); a Sora 7-speed STI kit ($130) and new handlebar tape.

Sheldon: The brakes are, in all likelihood, single-pivot. Yes, they'll sorta
work, but the Soras are made for the leverage of the currently-common
dual-pivot brakes. And I'll stick by my recommendation that, with Shimano
STI, front shifting will definitely be better with ramped & pinned
chainrings. Will it sorta work? Sure, maybe. Will it work as well as stuff
that's made to work together? Absolutely not. Even the front derailleur has
changed significantly vs pre-STI, with most (not all) of the older ones
pushing out and forward (the arm is at an angle not perpendicular to the
bike).

So I'll respectfully disagree with your statement-

There's no earthly reason to replace the brake calipers, rear wheel,
cassette, chainrings or either derailer unless these parts are worn out or
otherwise damaged.

It all depends upon what the customer is looking for. In my book, what he's
got isn't so terribly bad, but the "improvements" you're suggesting don't
bring it up to modern standards, so he still might be that far away from
something he'd really like. Or not. It depends upon what he might like to
spend his money on. In any event, he should try one of the new-fangled
machines to see what's happened over the years, and figure out if it makes
sense for him to spend the money.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Sheldon Brown" wrote in message
...
An anonymous poster wrote:

I'm 60 years old and haven't ridden in about 12 years. I have a 1989
Specialized Allez that is in excellent shape and instead of buying
something new, I'm thinking about upgrading this bike. I would like a
more upright sitting position, brakes and shifters easier to reach
without moving your hands everytime you want to shift or brake, and
possibly a new saddle. I've really lost knowledge of what's out there
now days or what the feasibility is of doing this. Hate to give up a
good bike that fits me and that I really like, but don't want to spent
big bucks and then really be uncomfortable on it anyway.

The older lugged steel Specialized bikes such as the Allez were absolutely
gorgeous frames, definitely a keeper!

A usually reliable source replied.

... if you want to upgrade to the STI shifting, where you have the
shifting & braking integrated into the same lever, you may need to make
more changes to your bike than is really practical, cost-wise (STI
levers, dual-pivot brakes if you don't have them already, possible new
rear wheel if it won't accommodate at least a 7-speed index-compatible
cassette, and, if front shifting is a priority, either new chainrings or
a crankset... in addition to front & rear derailleurs).

That's not reasonable. A 1989 bike is already gonna be 7-speed, and I'm
pretty sure it was Shimano equipped.

If so, all he needs is a new handlebar stem, such as a Nitto Technomic,
($40); a Sora 7-speed STI kit ($130) and new handlebar tape.

There's no earthly reason to replace the brake calipers, rear wheel,
cassette, chainrings or either derailer unless these parts are worn out or
otherwise damaged.

Sheldon "Not That Expensive" Brown
+-----------------------------------------+
| Immigration is not a problem to solve, |
| but a sign of a successful nation. |
| --George W. Bush |
+-----------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Sheldon Brown wrote:

An anonymous poster wrote:

I'm 60 years old and haven't ridden in about 12 years. I have a 1989
Specialized Allez that is in excellent shape and instead of buying
something new, I'm thinking about upgrading this bike. I would like
a more upright sitting position, brakes and shifters easier to reach
without moving your hands everytime you want to shift or brake, and
possibly a new saddle. I've really lost knowledge of what's out
there now days or what the feasibility is of doing this. Hate to
give up a good bike that fits me and that I really like, but don't
want to spent big bucks and then really be uncomfortable on it
anyway.

The older lugged steel Specialized bikes such as the Allez were
absolutely gorgeous frames, definitely a keeper!

Indeed they were, and many people feel the same way about them. I've seen a
couple fetch prices on eBay that would easily fund a fancy new hybrid plus some
change. So if you *do* feel inclined to buy new, you're in a good position.

I'd just upgrade the trusty old steed though. Then if you get fitter and faster
and want something racier again, you can just switch everything back.

Matt O.

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 01:45:24 GMT, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote:

Will this require a new rear wheel to hold a Shimano cassette if he is
switching to STI? Maybe his wheel is for a freewheel. Are 7-speed
Shimano freewheels still around? Or by 1989, was Suntour compatible
with Shimano indexing?

Boy, I'm really sounding like the party-pooper here!

#1: Suntour & Shimano cogs had different spacing, with Shimano basically
running the same spacing from top-to-bottom, while Suntour used wider
spacing for the first couple of cogs. They do not interchange nicely; this
was a common issue in the way-back days when people thought they would. You
can make them sorta work, but not very well.

Suntour later on came out with a series of cassettes (not freewheels, to the
best of my recollection) with Shimano-like spacing, which meant that
Suntour now had equipment that wasn't compatible with itself. Sigh.

#1b: But... if you've got a freehweel, not cassette, you're in luck. Because
you can still get a (limited) selection of 7-speed Shimano freewheels. Well,
it might be that all you can get is a 14-28, but that isn't bad. So if
you've got a Suntour *freehweel* wheel, you're much better off and won't
have to replace the wheel. You may have to respace it though, as I don't
think you can fit a standard 7-speed freewheel onto your present setup (it
was probably a "narrow" Suntour freewheel).


Why I even asked was because of my own experience that Shimano and
Suntour are basically incompatible. I read and hear of exceptions all
the time, but I also have seen and heard (and had to do myself) people
simply throwing out the Suntour or Shimano side in order to get things
to work because they flat-out would not work together. I think it is
best to assume that they *won't* work together. Try new parts one step
at a time nd maybe he'll be lucky. But he should go into it with a
budget that assumes a full change-over.


#2: Sheldon doesn't think you need to change your brakes, but my experience
is that the Soras, which are made for the leverage of a dual-pivot brake,
will definitely work better with the proper brakes than with the
single-pivot models that Suntour used back in the day.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


I don't know the geometry of the Allez, but many steel bikes from the
'80s were designed for 'standard' or long reach brakes. If he does
switch to newer ones he'll have to figure this out.

Local bike mechanics have saved me so many headaches and so much money
when I have dealt with these '80s transitional bikes. A quick look, a
measurement or two, and they send me down the right path.

Thanks again for all the info. The brakes are dual-pivot sidepull
caliper by SunTour. Have pretty well decided to take the bike back to
my dealer for a complete service and cleanup and maybe a longer
handlebar stem. Then ride for a while a see how things go. Will also
ride some of the new stuff, as mentioned above, and see what it's
really like. They sell Trek and Specialized. One interesting model is
the Globe from Specialized. A bike actually set up for touring. Don't
see that very much anymore. Don't know if Trek has anything similar or
not. If you know anything about these, pass it on.
Thanks again for all the help,
Bob

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

... if you want to upgrade to the STI shifting, where you have the
shifting & braking integrated into the same lever, you may need to make
more changes to your bike than is really practical, cost-wise (STI
levers, dual-pivot brakes if you don't have them already, possible new
rear wheel if it won't accommodate at least a 7-speed index-compatible
cassette, and, if front shifting is a priority, either new chainrings or
a crankset... in addition to front & rear derailleurs).

I replied:

That's not reasonable. A 1989 bike is already gonna be 7-speed, and I'm
pretty sure it was Shimano equipped.

If so, all he needs is a new handlebar stem, such as a Nitto Technomic,
($40); a Sora 7-speed STI kit ($130) and new handlebar tape.


Sheldon: The brakes are, in all likelihood, single-pivot. Yes, they'll sorta
work, but the Soras are made for the leverage of the currently-common
dual-pivot brakes.

Modern "aero-type" brake levers, whether with or without shifters,
actually provide slightly _more_ mechanical advantage than the old
exposed-cable levers. If that's what he's got, the braking will be
notably _improved_ by using modern levers.

And I'll stick by my recommendation that, with Shimano
STI, front shifting will definitely be better with ramped & pinned
chainrings. Will it sorta work? Sure, maybe. Will it work as well as stuff
that's made to work together? Absolutely not. Even the front derailleur has
changed significantly vs pre-STI, with most (not all) of the older ones
pushing out and forward (the arm is at an angle not perpendicular to the
bike).

STI conversion can be quite tricky on a bike with a triple chainwheel,
but if memory serves this bike has a double. Doubles are WAY less
finicky about that sort of thing.

If he really feels the needs for pins and ramps, we have ramped/pinned
52 tooth 130 BCD chainrings starting at $14.95, so that's hardly a deal
breaker. (There are no ramps/pins, nor any use for them, on the inner
chainring.)

A suitable front derailer can be had for $22, but I very much doubt that
he'll need one.

So I'll respectfully disagree with your statement-

There's no earthly reason to replace the brake calipers, rear wheel,
cassette, chainrings or either derailer unless these parts are worn out or
otherwise damaged.


It all depends upon what the customer is looking for. In my book, what he's
got isn't so terribly bad,

If it's one of those lugged steel Allezes, that's a major understatment
in my book, those were super frames.

but the "improvements" you're suggesting don't
bring it up to modern standards, so he still might be that far away from
something he'd really like. Or not.

He liked it in 1989, why wouldn't he like it today?

It depends upon what he might like to
spend his money on. In any event, he should try one of the new-fangled
machines to see what's happened over the years, and figure out if it makes
sense for him to spend the money.

Sure, trying things is good, but he should make an informed choice based
on a realistic cost estimate. A new _frame_ as nice as the one he has
is gonna cost him a grand...

Sheldon "Not Even A Specialized Dealer" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| It is good to learn from your mistakes; |
| It is better to learn from the mistakes of others. |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com