question of weight on a bike

wrote:
On Feb 24, 3:45 pm, Peter Cole wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Feb 24, 9:56 am, semi-ambivalent wrote:
I remember riding behind a stranger using aero bars and he *was* fast.
He was also sooo crooked that I let him go just to protect life and
limb in case he wiped out on the downhill, where he continued
synchronizing random bar movement with his punchy pedal strokes.
Yep, you've got to be careful with them. That riding position is
certainly twitchier on my bike. When mine were brand new and I first
tried to use them in a time trial, I nearly hit a mailbox about 20
feet from the start!
I slapped mine on for the first time and rode a 300K. No big deal, no
change in handling to speak of. As in riding no-hands, it probably adds
a second to my braking response time, so I don't ride them in the city
or in a pace line unless I'm pulling, where I almost always use them.

I've since gotten a lot better with them. But I'd never use them in
traffic, in a tight group of riders, where the road was twisty, etc.
But I have used them for long periods of time in bad headwinds with my
wife and/or daughter drafting me.
They're handy in headwinds, but I mostly like just having another
position. They are quite effective at reducing drag though. I found that
I could often catch a group on the flats after being dropped on a climb.

Noting, these bars evolved from armrests which were meant to enable
long hours in the saddle at RAAM (Recline Across America?) although I
think the aero advantage was recognized early on.

http://www.adventurecorps.com/when/raam/raambikes.html
(blast from the past, there)
--D-y

I have one relatively new pair with flip-up arm pads, and a similar
model without the pads from the 80's. The position is pretty much the
same, it's just much nicer to have a padded and conformal surface to
rest your forearms. Neither looks much like your picture.

On Feb 24, 6:27*pm, Jobst Brandt wrote:
I think I'm well off with my Cinelli drop bars with round hooks and
straight extension. *They last a long time because they are steel.
I've seen enough bars crack at the stem clamp to appreciate that.
Here they are in use, where aluminum bars have bent:

*http://tinyurl.com/y8njamq

Filbert St. SF 47t-21t gear on tubulars yet.

Straps, cleats, cages, bedroom slippers. Some things have come a long,
long ways.
--D-y

On Feb 24, 5:57*pm, Peter Cole wrote:
wrote:
On Feb 24, 3:45 pm, Peter Cole wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Feb 24, 9:56 am, semi-ambivalent wrote:
I remember riding behind a stranger using aero bars and he *was* fast.

On Feb 24, 2:56*pm, thirty-six wrote:
On 24 Feb, 03:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:

In any case, there can be no question they really work - unless, I
suppose, you've never tried them or ridden with somone else who used
them. *And if they work, they can work by reducing frontal area, by
reducing drag coefficient, r both. *I've read that it's primarily the
former.

In your use, you have your elbows in front of your shoulders, yes?

My elbows are forward of my shoulders (of course), and inboard of my
shoulders.

My shoulders are roughly 20" wide. My handlebars are roughly 15"
wide. The elbow pads for the aero bars are 8.5" wide overall.

- Frank Krygowski

On Feb 24, 2:05*pm, "Gennaro" wrote:
"Frank Krygowski" wrote...

[...]

Yep, you've got to be careful with them. *That riding position is
certainly twitchier on my bike. *When mine were brand new and I first
tried to use them in a time trial, I nearly hit a mailbox about 20
feet from the start!

I've since gotten a lot better with them. *

How do you brake? Aren't they dangerous?

I don't use them when there's any possibility I might need to brake.
But that applies to lots of things I do on a bike: drinking from water
bottles, searching for something in my handlebar bag, eating, glancing
at maps, etc.

The mailbox incident was my only problem, and that was probably a
combination of unfamiliarity, getting on to them while I was still
trying to accelerate strongly, and the excitement of the competition.

- Frank Krygowski

On Feb 24, 4:45*pm, Peter Cole wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

I've since gotten a lot better with them. *But I'd never use them in
traffic, in a tight group of riders, where the road was twisty, etc.

But I have used them for long periods of time in bad headwinds with my
wife and/or daughter drafting me.

They're handy in headwinds, but I mostly like just having another
position.

Agreed. In fact, they've added a couple hand positions for me. I
sometimes ride with my hands on the elbow pads. Variety is
comfortable.

- Frank Krygowski

On 25 Feb, 01:27, Jobst Brandt wrote:
I've seen enough bars crack at the stem clamp to appreciate that.
Here they are in use, where aluminum bars have bent:
http://tinyurl.com/y8njamq
Filbert St. SF 47t-21t gear on tubulars yet.

Hi Jobst,
do you always 'ankle' as in this picture?

Sergio
Pisa

On 25 Feb, 04:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Feb 24, 2:56*pm, thirty-six wrote:

On 24 Feb, 03:56, Frank Krygowski wrote:

In any case, there can be no question they really work - unless, I
suppose, you've never tried them or ridden with somone else who used
them. *And if they work, they can work by reducing frontal area, by
reducing drag coefficient, r both. *I've read that it's primarily the
former.

In your use, you have your elbows in front of your shoulders, yes?

My elbows are forward of my shoulders (of course), and inboard of my
shoulders.

I think the advantage you see is due to the larger radius formed over
your shoulders. It may be that suitable padding here and in front of
the upper arm would see similar time benefits without reduced steering
control. He, he, cycle cape becomes the new aerodynamic aid. An
apron from the shoulders to the wrists may serve well. When I used
to do my fast downhill runs, I did use newspaper under my jersey to
protect my chest and the paper got ruffled about my shoulders so did
change my shape slightly. Not a drastic deformation but the mere
sticking out of a couple of fingers at speeds over 64mph creates
obvious differences in speed when measured against fellow riders. I
was quicker downhill on the road and it was not due to excess weight
nor bravado. I accelerated fast to an excess of 200rpm and tweaked my
position when I had reached top rev's. I got to 218rpm which equated
to 68.5mph IIRC. I could not get this speed to hold IIRC and take up
revs were around 205. The aerodynamics were a significant part and I
even rode with both hands bhind my back but found that with one hand
back (also taking the shoulder back) and the other resting by
fingertips on the stem I could achieve faster speeds for it allowed me
to go from full aero to pedalling (hands on bar top) in a moment (and
back again). The other thing about my positon was that I closed the
gap between upper arm and chest. I'm pretty sure that all this can
be done with clothing without resort to gymnastics. I ride over rough
surfaces and so stretch bars are not appropriate in my eyes.

On Feb 25, 7:49*am, thirty-six wrote:
On 25 Feb, 04:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[When riding on aero bars] My elbows are forward of my shoulders (of course), and inboard of my
shoulders.

I think the advantage you see is due to the larger radius formed over
your shoulders. *

I think if you actually tried using similar bars, or actually reading
accounts of drag measurements and frontal area measurements with such
bars, your opinion would change.

But I know your thought processes don't work that way. So I encourage
you to keep experimenting with newspaper as an aerodynamic aid, and
with the "non-gymnastic" technique of riding with fingertips on the
stem and one hand behind your back. Perhaps one day the hour record
will be broken with a riding position named after you, and fame and
fortune will be yours!

- Frank Krygowski

On 25 Feb, 17:29, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Feb 25, 7:49*am, thirty-six wrote:

On 25 Feb, 04:15, Frank Krygowski wrote:

[When riding on aero bars] My elbows are forward of my shoulders (of course), and inboard of my
shoulders.

I think the advantage you see is due to the larger radius formed over
your shoulders. *

I think if you actually tried using similar bars, or actually reading
accounts of drag measurements and frontal area measurements with such
bars, your opinion would change.

But I know your thought processes don't work that way. *

So when does a stretched position help riding over stony surfaces?
Good steering control is paramount.

So I encourage
you to keep experimenting with newspaper as an aerodynamic aid, and
with the "non-gymnastic" technique of riding with fingertips on the
stem and one hand behind your back.

Silly.

Perhaps one day the hour record
will be broken with a riding position named after you, and fame and
fortune will be yours!

Not under UCI regs, didn't the commi block get outlawed due to
clothing in early 80's?