what is it about old stuff?

On 09 Mar 2010 02:29:32 GMT, Jobst Brandt wrote:

What I much rather have is at least one Modolo Chronos, the smallest,
lightest brake I have seen but I can't find anywhere. I've searched
the web, but they have vanished. It was the forerunner of the
Campagnolo Delta, having the same mechanism and being to market first.
I can't even find a picture.

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

Possibly Modolo Kronos?

http://picasaweb.google.com/norcalpa...07579543029074
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2q3riar&s=6

http://media.photobucket.com/image/M...per/11a3_3.jpg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Jobst Brandt wrote:
Andrew Muzi wrote:

Latest, man dual pivot brakes exists for more than 2 decades.

More like half a century. IIRC, Gerry Burgess created the first
dual-pivot brakes for bicycles in the late 1950s.

I get confused looking at brakes, but this page may illustrate
what you have in mind with even earlier dates:

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk...s-gbrakes.html

That page shows GB single pivot sidepulls. GB's classic
centerpull is he

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Bri..._teds_brak.htm

I don't believe they ever made a DP style caliper.

We've seen a lot of brakes in this thread, but I am unclear on what
the manufacturers had in mind when they chose their design and what
they claimed for it. I know that at the time Mafac and others were
riding high on the market, most riders believed they had a grater
mechanical advantage, even though they were no different from
single pivot side pull brakes.

I think it is important to note that most brakes have a 1:1 caliper
ratio and that the main leverage arises in the hand lever that has
been 4:1 for as long as I can recall. I have not seen other than
4:1.

I always felt these brakes were a fake and at best had more
drawbacks than the ones they were replacing. Most seem to have
rested on a human foible of wanting symmetry, similar to the human
body. The greater braking force ploy seemed to evaporate with
time, but that didn't stop brake manufacturers from offering new
brakes, many with two pivots:

Side-pull caliper brakes (one)
Center-pull caliper brakes
Mathauser caliper brakes (one)
U-brakes
cantilever brakes
V-brakes
Roller cam brakes
Delta brakes (one)
Hydraulic rim brakes

and now the side pull dual pivot brake with equalizing mechanism.
Two pivots are mostly off center so they cause cosine error in the
pad stroke. I was surprised that the Dual Pivot folks did not make
any claims for their brake except that it was better and easier to
use. They never mentioned why it was introduced or that it had
some drawbacks to an off center pivot. So we must wait and see
what the next brake will be.

Mathauser recognized the attraction of a symmetrical caliper so his,
otherwise side pull, was essentially a pair of pliers with the cable
drawing the upward extended handles together. Otherwise it was
expensive and ugly with poor finish (roughly machined). It didn't
last long.

But Matthausers are impressively light!

...were. There are no more of then except rarely second hand. There
weren't enough weight weenies to make the product sustain itself. I
have a set that someone believed I should have and gave me a pair.
They are still in the box.

What I much rather have is at least one Modolo Chronos, the smallest,
lightest brake I have seen but I can't find anywhere. I've searched
the web, but they have vanished. It was the forerunner of the
Campagnolo Delta, having the same mechanism and being to market first.
I can't even find a picture.

Jobst Brandt

In the then-trendy style, Modolo named them "Kronos" because
there is no "K" in Italian. Here you go:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/SSTR15.JPG

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 09 Mar 2010 03:18:54 GMT, Jobst Brandt wrote:

Carl Fogel wrote:

What I much rather have is at least one Modolo Chronos, the
smallest, lightest brake I have seen but I can't find anywhere.
I've searched the web, but they have vanished. It was the
forerunner of the Campagnolo Delta, having the same mechanism and
being to market first. I can't even find a picture.

Possibly Modolo Kronos?

That helps gobs. Thanks.

http://picasaweb.google.com/norcalpa...07579543029074

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2q3riar&s=6

http://media.photobucket.com/image/M...iper/11a3_3.jp
g

OK, one step farther. Where can I purchase at least one of these:

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/ima...lo/ModoK4L.jpg

I admire your search capability.

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

Secret negotiations with Andrew Muzi, who sold 'em all, but might have
a lead?

Keep watching eBay for modolo kronos?

Figure out how to email this guy (probably join?) and see if he still
has his for sale?

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/Slowtwit...d%29_P2636508/

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Mar 8, 6:59*pm, AMuzi wrote:
Jobst Brandt wrote:
Andrew Muzi wrote:

Latest, man dual pivot brakes exists for more than 2 decades.

More like half a century. *IIRC, Gerry Burgess created the first
dual-pivot brakes for bicycles in the late 1950s.

I get confused looking at brakes, but this page may illustrate
what you have in mind with even earlier dates:

*http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk...s-gbrakes.html

That page shows GB single pivot sidepulls. *GB's classic
centerpull is he

*http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Bri...alcon_teds_bra...

I don't believe they ever made a DP style caliper.

We've seen a lot of brakes in this thread, but I am unclear on what
the manufacturers had in mind when they chose their design and what
they claimed for it. *I know that at the time Mafac and others were
riding high on the market, most riders believed they had a grater
mechanical advantage, even though they were no different from
single pivot side pull brakes.

I think it is important to note that most brakes have a 1:1 caliper
ratio and that the main leverage arises in the hand lever that has
been 4:1 for as long as I can recall. *I have not seen other than
4:1.

I always felt these brakes were a fake and at best had more
drawbacks than the ones they were replacing. *Most seem to have
rested on a human foible of wanting symmetry, similar to the human
body. *The greater braking force ploy seemed to evaporate with
time, but that didn't stop brake manufacturers from offering new
brakes, many with two pivots:

Side-pull caliper brakes (one)
Center-pull caliper brakes
Mathauser caliper brakes (one)
U-brakes
cantilever brakes
V-brakes
Roller cam brakes
Delta brakes (one)
Hydraulic rim brakes

and now the side pull dual pivot brake with equalizing mechanism.
Two pivots are mostly off center so they cause cosine error in the
pad stroke. *I was surprised that the Dual Pivot folks did not make
any claims for their brake except that it was better and easier to
use. *They never mentioned why it was introduced or that it had
some drawbacks to an off center pivot. *So we must wait and see
what the next brake will be.

Mathauser recognized the attraction of a symmetrical caliper so his,
otherwise side pull, was essentially a pair of pliers with the cable
drawing the upward extended handles together. *Otherwise it was
expensive and ugly with poor finish (roughly machined). *It didn't
last long.

But Matthausers are impressively light!

...were. *There are no more of then except rarely second hand. *There
weren't enough weight weenies to make the product sustain itself. *I
have a set that someone believed I should have and gave me a pair.
They are still in the box.

What I much rather have is at least one Modolo Chronos, the smallest,
lightest brake I have seen but I can't find anywhere. *I've searched
the web, but they have vanished. *It was the forerunner of the
Campagnolo Delta, having the same mechanism and being to market first.
I can't even find a picture.

Jobst Brandt

In the then-trendy style, Modolo named them "Kronos" because
there is no "K" in Italian. Here you go:http://www.yellowjersey.org/SSTR15.JPG

IIRC, these things barely stopped. Was your experience any
different? These hit the market at about the same time as the super-
light CLB and Galli. There was this short-lived brake war in the late
'70s early 80's. Maybe I am dreaming, but it seems that a lot of
weird stuff hit the market about that time. I actually owned one of
these: http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/...5-filtered.jpg
-- in black, not pink. Worked like crap. Avicet was coming on the
market with all its Ofmega knock off stuff, too. And then Shimano and
SunTour really dropped the hammer, and all the off brand Euro trash
disappeared.-- Jay Beattie.

On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 20:54:38 -0700, wrote:

On 09 Mar 2010 03:18:54 GMT, Jobst Brandt wrote:

Carl Fogel wrote:

What I much rather have is at least one Modolo Chronos, the
smallest, lightest brake I have seen but I can't find anywhere.
I've searched the web, but they have vanished. It was the
forerunner of the Campagnolo Delta, having the same mechanism and
being to market first. I can't even find a picture.

Possibly Modolo Kronos?

That helps gobs. Thanks.

http://picasaweb.google.com/norcalpa...07579543029074

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2q3riar&s=6

http://media.photobucket.com/image/M...iper/11a3_3.jp
g

OK, one step farther. Where can I purchase at least one of these:

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/ima...lo/ModoK4L.jpg

I admire your search capability.

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

Secret negotiations with Andrew Muzi, who sold 'em all, but might have
a lead?

Keep watching eBay for modolo kronos?

Figure out how to email this guy (probably join?) and see if he still
has his for sale?

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/Slowtwit...d%29_P2636508/

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Aha! Some photos of the brakes and his name and so on:
http://www.westwoodvelo.com/showthread.php?t=2570

A page to click on and send him a private message to find out if he
still has the brakes:

http://www.westwoodvelo.com/member.p...c6984669c1&u=1

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On 8 Mar, 06:55, Jobst Brandt wrote:
Phil Lee wrote:
snipped for brevity
Having used a motorcycle on which the braking system and pad
compound stayed the same but on which the discs were replaced by
drilled ones of the same material part-way through my ownership of
it, I can confirm that it makes a considerable difference, but
only in the wet. *Brake fade wasn't a problem, but delayed
application in the wet certainly was, on the un-drilled discs.
How do you explain that nearly all passenger cars, SUV, and trucks,
as well as do railway trains have no holes. *If cross drilled holes
in disks make such a noticeable improvement, how do all these
manufacturers manage to sell vehicles with no such holes? *In my
work with Dunlop and Girling disks, there was no interest in such
holes except for sports cars where users requested them.
I suspect that the pressure between pad and disc is lower on the
motorcycle than on trucks, cars, and railway trains, and that this
means that some kind of irregularity in the surface assists the
dispersal of a water film, which higher pad pressures can break
through without aid.
That's just my theory based on observed results, but I can't see
anything wrong with it.

That doesn't explain how common car brakes work equally well in wet or
dry conditions with the excessive pressure they apply to wet use.

I did find some pads (sintered metal) that worked better in the wet
on the un-drilled discs, but they were less effective in the dry and
caused greater wear on the discs (which is why I had to change the
discs).
The fact that sintered metal gave predictable wet braking on the
un-drilled discs, but were not necessary on the drilled ones, seems
to support my theory.

All the cars, mine my friends, and rental cars that I have used braked
equally well in wet and dry weather. *I suspect your results were
affected by your expectations.

Drive across a ford deep enough to cover the axle then try braking
with your smooth discs. Er, vastly diminished braking capacity. A
good reason to continue to use drums on the rear (except they get wet
as well, but a gravity pressure valve can compensate for that and give
the rear full hydraulic pressure). The rim and tyre usually surrounds
the disc so protecting it from rain. Flood water doesn't.



This was on a much modified Kawasaki Z650 B/C/F - good parts
interchangeability on that series
If you look at the pad area on a car, truck, train and then at the
force available to drive it, you can derive the pad pressure
capability of the system to a fair degree of accuracy - all the
larger systems use servo assisted or power brakes, so MUCH higher
forces are available, not just the advantage of using the leg
instead of a few fingers to supply power.
You also get a pretty good idea from the calipers - motorcycle ones
are tiny compared to the others, so it's reasonable to expect that
the extra size is there to cope with higher forces.

Al the motorcycling I did had mechanical brakes and performed well in
all weather. *However, these were drum brakes but hand pressure was
enough to make them work well.

Jobst Brandt

On 8 Mar, 06:01, Jobst Brandt wrote:
Andrew Muzi wrote:
There are several reasons for using Kool-Stop salmon colored
pads, such as no generation of grit that rapidly wears aluminum
rims (something Campagnolo pads do with road grit in the slots)
and that they have better wet performance than most other brake
pads.
I always used Campy pads. The wet performance is very good, they
don't wear your rims out because of embedded aluminum particles as
some Shimano pads do and they last a long time. I tried Salmon
pads once and I thought they were not better, especially in the
wet. Good pads though. *The only bad pads I ever used are Shimano
pads. You could dig half of your rim out of them after every wet
curvy descent. Terrible.
I got to Koo-Stop after having grit problems with all the other
pads, including Campagnolo. *I became suspect also because the
black material left black streaks on my rims, something the
Kool-Stop pads don't. *The streaks suggest that, in hard use, the
pads reach melting temperature, an impression I also got from
diminishing braking on steep descents.
Also, with single pivot (sidepull) calipers they can be ridden
through to the metal, so to speak, with no change in performance.
Dual pivots brakes have benefits too. *Some people appreciate
them, but nothing comes for free. *I agree with you on that.
Why do Campagnolo pads need replacement when 3mm are worn away?
4 mm. *I don't know. *Good question. *At that mark the groves are
gone. *Maybe they think the groves are necessary.
Not to worry, tribology is a greatly misunderstood science, and I
think the present Campagnolo people are not as good as in the days
of yore. *Slots in brake pads are like holes drilled in in the
faces of some automotive disk brakes... useless. *The idea behind
that was to let gas escape to prevent gas-bearing brake fade,
something left over from drum brake days.
Grooves are almost universally added as a wear indicator.

However, that they have an effect on wet braking has been erroneously
stated in this thread.

Jobst Brandt

However, that they have an effect on wet braking (IT's TRUE) has been
erroneously stated as erroneous in this thread. I've done it with
Fibrax 369. Two cross cuts work. This came after observing how
effective the hard black Weinmann X pattern blocks were and wishing to
improve on it. A problem with production blocks is that they are
generally unidirectional as a compromise so that the assemb;er does
not get them the wrong way round.

On 8 Mar, 05:58, Jobst Brandt wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote:
It's not a matter of what we believe in. *The fact is that dual
pivots do not require pad adjustment -- at least not mine. *I
just replaced a pair of salmon Kool-Stops that were worn
practically to the shoe. *I put them on and never touched
them. If there was pad dive, it was so subtle as to not
matter. I much prefer the feel to single pivots, although I
could live with either. *My hard braking in wet weather is
usually on mechanical discs anyway, but the dual pivots with
Salmon Kool-Stops do have good wet weather performance -- not
perfect, but good.
There's still nothing inherently wrong with non dual-pivot
designs. Do they require less maintenance? Probably. Is that a
requirement for a bike? No. Is it a good idea for anyone to
ignore maintenance on their bike? No. Does everyone have to have
the latest in designs and technology (some better and some worse)
to make them happy? No.
Latest, man dual pivot brakes exists for more than 2 decades.
Everybody who bought a new bike the last 20 year have them
installed. *Boy, you guys would make a really funny subset of
cyclists here in Europe.
The dual pivot was to be an improvement over previous new
discoveries, such as centerpull, delta, cantilever and
direct-pull. *So they came up with their own "feet of clay" in
stead of designing a new main spring for the caliper that didn't
have a separate friction point one each arm... therefore, causing
the perpetual one-side-dragging sidepull which it emulates in
appearance. *So why all these brake designs, that fade with time,
some of which are gone?
It is a better brake if better means lighter action and more
positive stopping. *And I used the term "shoe" to mean "carrier" or
brake pad holder. *Most of us in the modern era are using some sort
of pad holder and slide in pad. *You really need to buy a set and
try them out -- but then again, you would have to buy the evil
levers, too (STI or not). *They are not failed Deltas or cantilevers
-- and the pads don't drag. *With the mechanical advantage, they do
run close to the rim, which is the only disadvantage -- but the QR
opens far enough to accommodate a broken spoke on a 32 spoke wheel.
Maybe not on a 12 spoke wheel.

Say what you mean instead of vague terms "down to the shoe" when you
mean pad holder. *It is not the lubricant that causes off center break
pad retraction, but rather road grit entering the spring tap on brake
arms. *You'll note that the sliding motion of the dual pivot is
greater than any previous brake but it has forced centering and one
plastic sleeve in which the return spring slides... with dirt.

A single pivot spring could easily be made to have no sliding motion
by having its coil around the center post, bot no one noticed that
because they believed the old dual elephant ear return spring was
perfect, so they went elsewhere fore their solution.

Jobst Brandt

Technician's answers "OIL IT"

Jay Beattie wrote:
On Mar 8, 6:59 pm, AMuzi wrote:
Jobst Brandt wrote:
Andrew Muzi wrote:
Latest, man dual pivot brakes exists for more than 2 decades.
More like half a century. IIRC, Gerry Burgess created the first
dual-pivot brakes for bicycles in the late 1950s.
I get confused looking at brakes, but this page may illustrate
what you have in mind with even earlier dates:
http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk...s-gbrakes.html
That page shows GB single pivot sidepulls. GB's classic
centerpull is he
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/Bri...alcon_teds_bra...
I don't believe they ever made a DP style caliper.
We've seen a lot of brakes in this thread, but I am unclear on what
the manufacturers had in mind when they chose their design and what
they claimed for it. I know that at the time Mafac and others were
riding high on the market, most riders believed they had a grater
mechanical advantage, even though they were no different from
single pivot side pull brakes.
I think it is important to note that most brakes have a 1:1 caliper
ratio and that the main leverage arises in the hand lever that has
been 4:1 for as long as I can recall. I have not seen other than
4:1.
I always felt these brakes were a fake and at best had more
drawbacks than the ones they were replacing. Most seem to have
rested on a human foible of wanting symmetry, similar to the human
body. The greater braking force ploy seemed to evaporate with
time, but that didn't stop brake manufacturers from offering new
brakes, many with two pivots:
Side-pull caliper brakes (one)
Center-pull caliper brakes
Mathauser caliper brakes (one)
U-brakes
cantilever brakes
V-brakes
Roller cam brakes
Delta brakes (one)
Hydraulic rim brakes
and now the side pull dual pivot brake with equalizing mechanism.
Two pivots are mostly off center so they cause cosine error in the
pad stroke. I was surprised that the Dual Pivot folks did not make
any claims for their brake except that it was better and easier to
use. They never mentioned why it was introduced or that it had
some drawbacks to an off center pivot. So we must wait and see
what the next brake will be.
Mathauser recognized the attraction of a symmetrical caliper so his,
otherwise side pull, was essentially a pair of pliers with the cable
drawing the upward extended handles together. Otherwise it was
expensive and ugly with poor finish (roughly machined). It didn't
last long.
But Matthausers are impressively light!
...were. There are no more of then except rarely second hand. There
weren't enough weight weenies to make the product sustain itself. I
have a set that someone believed I should have and gave me a pair.
They are still in the box.
What I much rather have is at least one Modolo Chronos, the smallest,
lightest brake I have seen but I can't find anywhere. I've searched
the web, but they have vanished. It was the forerunner of the
Campagnolo Delta, having the same mechanism and being to market first.
I can't even find a picture.
Jobst Brandt
In the then-trendy style, Modolo named them "Kronos" because
there is no "K" in Italian. Here you go:http://www.yellowjersey.org/SSTR15.JPG

IIRC, these things barely stopped. Was your experience any
different? These hit the market at about the same time as the super-
light CLB and Galli. There was this short-lived brake war in the late
'70s early 80's. Maybe I am dreaming, but it seems that a lot of
weird stuff hit the market about that time. I actually owned one of
these: http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/...5-filtered.jpg
-- in black, not pink. Worked like crap. Avicet was coming on the
market with all its Ofmega knock off stuff, too. And then Shimano and
SunTour really dropped the hammer, and all the off brand Euro trash
disappeared.-- Jay Beattie.

Good summary but hey we "celebrated diversity" back then!

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 9 Mar, 04:18, Jobst Brandt wrote:
OK, one step farther. *Where can I purchase at least one of these:
*http://www.classicrendezvous.com/ima...lo/ModoK4L.jpg

Too late, Jobst, three years too late.

I owned a Cinelli Laser TT bike, in pristine condition (it had never
seen the road when I acquired it).
It had exactly those Modolo brakes, with the gums rotten out because
of aging.
That was a certainly beautiful machine for which I desperatly looked
for gums to replace the old ones. I contancted the Modolo firm, up in
Veneto, to be reassured that not even spare parts were available any
longer.

Then I was finally able to 'deserve' a gift from a well known guy,
S.M. in N.J., an important contributor to the classicrendezvous group
of enthusiasts.
New gums for free.

But the Laser bike was unpleasant to ride, for me.
I literally got rid of it at Gaiole in Chianti, at the Eroica 2007,
selling it to a happy swiss guy.

More recently I saw it, emerged on the internet, at some international
CInelli inventory.
If you see a Cinelli laser bike with 'Fanini' decals on , that had
been mine.

Again, too bad I didn't find it comfortable to ride.
I hold it that a bike is worth only if ridden.

Sergio
Pisa