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#41
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which torque wrench?
"Rob Morley" wrote in message
t... In article Clive George wrote: "Rob Morley" wrote in message t... In article Simon Brooke wrote: in message , Anthony Jones ') wrote: snip 3) grease/don't grease the tapers (tried both). Grease. Definitely. You're kidding, aren't you? Nope. Of course I imagine he's aware that this is a matter of some debate, which to me implies that either way works. I've never seen any debate about it - who says the taper should be greased? Blimey, you've had your eyes shut a long time! :-) Google groups for "grease crank taper" should give you a hint that there are people on both sides of this argument. cheers, clive |
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#42
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which torque wrench?
Anthony Jones wrote:
[square taper cranks] 1) get it tighter (I've always tightened them to *really* tight, honest). How tight is "really tight" in Nm? If you don't know, maybe that's because you didn't use a torque wrench, and maybe the cranks weren't really tight enough. ~PB |
#43
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which torque wrench?
Rob Morley wrote:
I've never seen any debate about it - who says the taper should be greased? Jobst Brandt - http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/i...ng-cranks.html I've had no problems whatsoever since doing this, although to be fair the few before (a long time ago) might not have been anything to do with lack of grease. ~PB |
#44
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which torque wrench?
Simon Brooke wrote:
in message , Anthony Jones ') wrote: 1) get it tighter (I've always tightened them to *really* tight, honest). Don't. Do! Really tight is not needed. I have had cranks come loose - twice in my life, I think - and this isn't good for them. But that's in what must by now be getting on for quarter of a million miles. Good and snug is all I ever do; I don't like to use force when doing things up, because if you do, how will you undo them? You're not just tightening a bolt. A good amount of force is needed to wedge the cranks on the spindle properly. The hole in the aluminium crank is designed to expand. The compression (combined with the bolt) is what makes it work well. Undoing is no problem with a long spanner or wrench, IME. ~PB |
#45
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which torque wrench?
In article
Pete Biggs wrote: Rob Morley wrote: I've never seen any debate about it - who says the taper should be greased? Jobst Brandt - http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/i...ng-cranks.html I've had no problems whatsoever since doing this, although to be fair the few before (a long time ago) might not have been anything to do with lack of grease. I've never had a problem with my own cranks loosening in over 25 years of using square-taper cotterless cranks. After ten years in the bike trade I'm only aware of one loosening problem with a crank I fitted - that had grease on the taper. I've not seen any evidence of crank bolts routinely working loose when properly tightened. I've never split a crank. And I don't use dustcaps on my bikes, because they only trap water. I wonder why JB has had such a different experience. |
#46
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which torque wrench?
Pete Biggs wrote:
How tight is "really tight" in Nm? If you don't know, maybe that's because you didn't use a torque wrench, and maybe the cranks weren't really tight enough. Since I'm obviously struggling to convince people, here's my full unabridged story of square-taper woe complete with estimated torque figures. Enjoy. The first time it happened it was with a bike I bought complete, and I'd never touched the cranks. After about 6 months of off-road riding, something started creaking. Not being able to work out what it was, I ignored it for a while, until I realised that the cranks were noticeably floppy (not massively so: this was a mountain bike, and I could feel them occasionally shift slightly if I'd been standing one foot forward, and then I switched feet). So, I tightened them as tight as I could get using all my weight and an allen key of similar length to the crank itself. I make that about 65Nm (I weigh ~75kg, and half of my weight would have been on the crank, half on the allen key). Which is a fair bit tighter than the suggested torque, so I'd be surprised if that was the problem. The cranks were obviously mangled, because they'd just come loose again within a couple of weeks of tightening. So I replaced them, and knowing what could happen if they came loose, I tightened the new cranks as tight as I could possibly get them. Again, they started making the distinctive creak after a few months, but this time I knew to re-tighten them immediately. They continued on a cycle of a few months creak free, followed by creaking, followed by immediate re-tightening. I had to replace the second set of cranks, because I snapped one (Shimano later recalled that model). Exactly the same creaking-tightening cycle happened with the third set. Then I managed to snap the chainstay/dropout weld on that frame, and I treated myself to an entirely new bike (another MTB). Again, creaking after a few months. Eventually I thought "I've had enough of this", and bought a XT Hollowtech-2 crank. That must have been about 2 years ago, and the Hollowtech-2 crank has been perfectly behaved since day one. I've never tried square-taper on a road bike, since I got my road bike shortly after giving up on square-taper completely. So, that's 4 cranksets: 2 shop-tightened, and 2 tightened by me to ~65Nm, and all re-tightened numerous times (including removing to try things such as greasing/degreasing the tapers and putting Loctite on the crank bolt). All were mid-range Shimano MTB cranks (Alivio/STX level), on Shimano UN-53/73 BBs. As I mentioned previously, nothing else on any bike has given me any repeated trouble, so I'd like to think it's not just that I'm completely mechanically inept. Given that all these problems occurred on MTBs, and that I do admittedly give my MTBs a fair bit of abuse, I suspect it's more likely a riding style issue rather than an installation one. I also notice that Jobst Brandt claims being goofy-footed (which I am) can be related to cranks coming loose, although I've never quite understood why. Anthony |
#47
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which torque wrench?
Simon Brooke wrote:
I don't like to use force when doing things up, because if you do, how will you undo them? How would I undo the crank bolt? I'd just ride the bike around for a bit, and my legs would magically loosen it. I'd rather have to cut my cranks of with an angle grinder (when the BB gives up) instead of re-tightening them all the time, but the cranks evidently don't like that idea. Anthony |
#48
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which torque wrench?
Rob Morley wrote:
In article Pete Biggs wrote: Rob Morley wrote: I've never seen any debate about it - who says the taper should be greased? Jobst Brandt - http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/i...ng-cranks.html I've had no problems whatsoever since doing this, although to be fair the few before (a long time ago) might not have been anything to do with lack of grease. I've never had a problem with my own cranks loosening in over 25 years of using square-taper cotterless cranks. After ten years in the bike trade I'm only aware of one loosening problem with a crank I fitted - that had grease on the taper. Which proves nothing, of course. I've not seen any evidence of crank bolts routinely working loose when properly tightened. I've never split a crank. And I don't use dustcaps on my bikes, because they only trap water. I wonder why JB has had such a different experience. Maybe he rides his bikes in an unusual way??? Monster gears up mountains, for a start. Anyway, I think the grease question is a red herring. I'm not suggesting that it is necessary, personally. The important thing is to make sure the cranks are properly tight -- then they won't come loose whether grease was used or not. ~PB |
#49
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which torque wrench?
I wrote:
Anyway, I think the grease question is a red herring. I'm not suggesting that it is necessary, personally. The important thing is to make sure the cranks are properly tight -- then they won't come loose whether grease was used or not. .....except in Anthony's case! :-) ~PB |
#50
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which torque wrench?
in message , Pete Biggs
c') wrote: Simon Brooke wrote: in message , Anthony Jones ') wrote: 1) get it tighter (I've always tightened them to *really* tight, honest). Don't. Do! Really tight is not needed. I have had cranks come loose - twice in my life, I think - and this isn't good for them. But that's in what must by now be getting on for quarter of a million miles. Good and snug is all I ever do; I don't like to use force when doing things up, because if you do, how will you undo them? You're not just tightening a bolt. A good amount of force is needed to wedge the cranks on the spindle properly. The hole in the aluminium crank is designed to expand. The compression (combined with the bolt) is what makes it work well. I know. But, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. As you know, the crank tends to squirm up the taper in use anyway, so preloading it excessively with the bolt is not necessary. And, in my opinion, one failure every hundred thousand miles ain't broke. -- (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ ;; part time troll. |
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