Global Cycling News

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 01:05:05 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:09:49 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 08:43:51 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

The country with probably the longest history of slavery making comments
like that? Those that they didn't sell into slavery or enslave in foreign
countries, they shipped of to Australian to die.

White Cargo
The Forgotten History of Britain?s White Slaves in America
https://nyupress.org/9780814742969/white-cargo/

Snopes gives that meme a grade of ?Well, not quite true?.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ir...early-america/

As usual, reality lives between the extremes. The consensus seems to
be that Snopes is generally correct, but I prefer to read (skim) the
available literature and make up my own mind about a topic I know
little. So far, the only thing I've read worth debating is whether
indentured servitude or volunteer slavery is bad, evil, illegal, etc
with plenty of opinions at each extreme.


Right. And there are still a lot of legal ways to be “indentured”. Just
listen to Ernest Tubb’s song Sixteen Tons or talk to somebody working
multiple minimum wage jobs to barely pay for food and rent.


Seriously now, isn't it possible in the U.S. today to get along on
minimum salary? I don't mean to have the 40" TV in the toilet and all,
but to get along? Maybe only one bicycle (I know how scary that is)
and a second hand car, pay the rent and eat?

I know that some states have an extremely low minimum but California,
for example, it is $13.00/hour - $104/8 hour day, $520/5 day week.
Cheers,
John B.

On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 22:49:13 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/27/2020 12:30 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 01:05:05 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:09:49 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 08:43:51 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

The country with probably the longest history of slavery making comments
like that? Those that they didn't sell into slavery or enslave in foreign
countries, they shipped of to Australian to die.

White Cargo
The Forgotten History of Britain?s White Slaves in America
https://nyupress.org/9780814742969/white-cargo/

Snopes gives that meme a grade of ?Well, not quite true?.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ir...early-america/

As usual, reality lives between the extremes. The consensus seems to
be that Snopes is generally correct, but I prefer to read (skim) the
available literature and make up my own mind about a topic I know
little. So far, the only thing I've read worth debating is whether
indentured servitude or volunteer slavery is bad, evil, illegal, etc
with plenty of opinions at each extreme.


Right. And there are still a lot of legal ways to be “indentured”. Just
listen to Ernest Tubb’s song Sixteen Tons or talk to somebody working
multiple minimum wage jobs to barely pay for food and rent.


Seriously now, isn't it possible in the U.S. today to get along on
minimum salary? I don't mean to have the 40" TV in the toilet and all,
but to get along? Maybe only one bicycle (I know how scary that is)
and a second hand car, pay the rent and eat?

I know that some states have an extremely low minimum but California,
for example, it is $13.00/hour - $104/8 hour day, $520/5 day week.
Cheers,
John B.

At the start of our marriage, I felt fairly poor. Our bank account was
scarily low. I didn't see how we would ever afford a house.

I read a book called _Champagne Living on a Beer Budget_ or something
like that. It seemed intended for people living in a big city apartment,
which was not us; but it had tons of tips, like "Why do you think your
four kitchen chairs have to match? Buy whatever's at Goodwill and paint
them. Why do you think your toaster needs to be chrome? Paint a rusty
one. Why do you need two cars, or even one? Ride your bike!" And "Good
old stuff is GOOD!"

We kind of followed that advice for a while. (Except we did buy the
tandem.) In a few years, we had our down payment for a house. A few
years later, we were paying cash to buy cars. We didn't have fancy
furniture, the world's best stereo, the fanciest bikes. But we didn't
have debt, except for the house - and we paid that off early.

I now know a young couple in our neighborhood who spend thousands of
dollars at the drop of a hat, while complaining about not having money.
Heck, their boat probably cost as much as our finest car.

You was probably raised wrong.

After all I've read you talking about having to work - paper route -
as a child. In a more modern time your folks would probably be taken
to court over child abuse.
Cheers,
John B.

On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 18:57:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/26/2020 4:42 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, July 26, 2020 at 1:09:57 PM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 08:43:51 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

The country with probably the longest history of slavery making comments
like that? Those that they didn't sell into slavery or enslave in foreign
countries, they shipped of to Australian to die.

White Cargo
The Forgotten History of Britain’s White Slaves in America
https://nyupress.org/9780814742969/white-cargo/


Snopes gives that meme a grade of “Well, not quite true”.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ir...early-america/

Snopes and Answers are entirely politicized and misleading. Don't believe one single thing they "rule" on.

OK, give us your alternative.

https://www.factcheck.org
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fact-checking_websites#United_States
I use the first two mostly for double checking political claims.
For urban legends, I use Snopes. In all cases, I try to find the
source and only cite the fact checking web pile or Wikipedia when I'm
busy, lazy, hit a paywall, or can't find anything better.

"There are so many coronavirus myths that even Snopes can’t keep up"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/media/2020/04/15/coronavirus-misinformation-snopes/


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 7/27/2020 2:16 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 18:57:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/26/2020 4:42 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, July 26, 2020 at 1:09:57 PM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 08:43:51 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

The country with probably the longest history of slavery making comments
like that? Those that they didn't sell into slavery or enslave in foreign
countries, they shipped of to Australian to die.

White Cargo
The Forgotten History of Britain’s White Slaves in America
https://nyupress.org/9780814742969/white-cargo/


Snopes gives that meme a grade of “Well, not quite true�.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ir...early-america/

Snopes and Answers are entirely politicized and misleading. Don't believe one single thing they "rule" on.

OK, give us your alternative.

https://www.factcheck.org
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fact-checking_websites#United_States
I use the first two mostly for double checking political claims.
For urban legends, I use Snopes. In all cases, I try to find the
source and only cite the fact checking web pile or Wikipedia when I'm
busy, lazy, hit a paywall, or can't find anything better.

"There are so many coronavirus myths that even Snopes can’t keep up"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/media/2020/04/15/coronavirus-misinformation-snopes/

Thanks, Jeff.

Tom? Your turn!


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, July 27, 2020 at 12:37:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/27/2020 2:16 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 18:57:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/26/2020 4:42 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, July 26, 2020 at 1:09:57 PM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 08:43:51 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

The country with probably the longest history of slavery making comments
like that? Those that they didn't sell into slavery or enslave in foreign
countries, they shipped of to Australian to die.

White Cargo
The Forgotten History of Britain’s White Slaves in America
https://nyupress.org/9780814742969/white-cargo/


Snopes gives that meme a grade of “Well, not quite true�.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ir...early-america/

Snopes and Answers are entirely politicized and misleading. Don't believe one single thing they "rule" on.

OK, give us your alternative.

https://www.factcheck.org
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fact-checking_websites#United_States
I use the first two mostly for double checking political claims.
For urban legends, I use Snopes. In all cases, I try to find the
source and only cite the fact checking web pile or Wikipedia when I'm
busy, lazy, hit a paywall, or can't find anything better.

"There are so many coronavirus myths that even Snopes can’t keep up"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/media/2020/04/15/coronavirus-misinformation-snopes/

Thanks, Jeff.

Tom? Your turn!


--
- Frank Krygowski

http://www.aohflorida.org/the-irish-slave-trade/

On Monday, July 27, 2020 at 12:37:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/27/2020 2:16 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 18:57:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/26/2020 4:42 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, July 26, 2020 at 1:09:57 PM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 08:43:51 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

The country with probably the longest history of slavery making comments
like that? Those that they didn't sell into slavery or enslave in foreign
countries, they shipped of to Australian to die.

White Cargo
The Forgotten History of Britain’s White Slaves in America
https://nyupress.org/9780814742969/white-cargo/


Snopes gives that meme a grade of “Well, not quite true�.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ir...early-america/

Snopes and Answers are entirely politicized and misleading. Don't believe one single thing they "rule" on.

OK, give us your alternative.

https://www.factcheck.org
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fact-checking_websites#United_States
I use the first two mostly for double checking political claims.
For urban legends, I use Snopes. In all cases, I try to find the
source and only cite the fact checking web pile or Wikipedia when I'm
busy, lazy, hit a paywall, or can't find anything better.

"There are so many coronavirus myths that even Snopes can’t keep up"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/media/2020/04/15/coronavirus-misinformation-snopes/

Thanks, Jeff.

Tom? Your turn!


--
- Frank Krygowski

Let's remember Frank that I didn't hit my head on an overhead branch in the bike lane because there isn't anything you won't say.

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 01:14:11 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
wrote:

On Monday, July 27, 2020 at 4:49:21 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/27/2020 12:30 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 01:05:05 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:09:49 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 08:43:51 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

The country with probably the longest history of slavery making comments
like that? Those that they didn't sell into slavery or enslave in foreign
countries, they shipped of to Australian to die.

White Cargo
The Forgotten History of Britain?s White Slaves in America
https://nyupress.org/9780814742969/white-cargo/

Snopes gives that meme a grade of ?Well, not quite true?.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ir...early-america/

As usual, reality lives between the extremes. The consensus seems to
be that Snopes is generally correct, but I prefer to read (skim) the
available literature and make up my own mind about a topic I know
little. So far, the only thing I've read worth debating is whether
indentured servitude or volunteer slavery is bad, evil, illegal, etc
with plenty of opinions at each extreme.


Right. And there are still a lot of legal ways to be “indentured”. Just
listen to Ernest Tubb’s song Sixteen Tons or talk to somebody working
multiple minimum wage jobs to barely pay for food and rent.


Seriously now, isn't it possible in the U.S. today to get along on
minimum salary? I don't mean to have the 40" TV in the toilet and all,
but to get along? Maybe only one bicycle (I know how scary that is)
and a second hand car, pay the rent and eat?

I know that some states have an extremely low minimum but California,
for example, it is $13.00/hour - $104/8 hour day, $520/5 day week.
Cheers,
John B.

At the start of our marriage, I felt fairly poor. Our bank account was
scarily low. I didn't see how we would ever afford a house.

I read a book called _Champagne Living on a Beer Budget_ or something
like that. It seemed intended for people living in a big city apartment,
which was not us; but it had tons of tips, like "Why do you think your
four kitchen chairs have to match? Buy whatever's at Goodwill and paint
them. Why do you think your toaster needs to be chrome? Paint a rusty
one. Why do you need two cars, or even one? Ride your bike!" And "Good
old stuff is GOOD!"

We kind of followed that advice for a while. (Except we did buy the
tandem.) In a few years, we had our down payment for a house. A few
years later, we were paying cash to buy cars. We didn't have fancy
furniture, the world's best stereo, the fanciest bikes. But we didn't
have debt, except for the house - and we paid that off early.

I now know a young couple in our neighborhood who spend thousands of
dollars at the drop of a hat, while complaining about not having money.
Heck, their boat probably cost as much as our finest car.


--
- Frank Krygowski

It is all about choices. I'm from a generation brought up with 'save up first, then buy'. Followed that rule my whole life except for my house which I also paid off early. It took me a while to understand the credit card concept because it didn't fit into my mindset, still doesn't.

Lou

When I lived in Riverside Calif. I had to get a credit card as most
fuel stations were "Exact change or credit card only". So I got one.
On Payday I'd take my check into the bank, deposit it and go right
across the office to the credit card guys and pay my last month's
charges.

One payday the credit card guy says, "You know you don't have to pay
this all in one month" and I told him that according to the contract
if I paid within one month of getting my bill there was no interest
charge.

The guy replied, "Yup, a few of you have figured that out".

Cheers,
John B.

On 7/27/2020 4:05 PM, wrote:
On Monday, July 27, 2020 at 12:37:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 7/27/2020 2:16 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 18:57:17 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 7/26/2020 4:42 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, July 26, 2020 at 1:09:57 PM UTC-7, Ralph Barone wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 08:43:51 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

The country with probably the longest history of slavery making comments
like that? Those that they didn't sell into slavery or enslave in foreign
countries, they shipped of to Australian to die.

White Cargo
The Forgotten History of Britain’s White Slaves in America
https://nyupress.org/9780814742969/white-cargo/


Snopes gives that meme a grade of “Well, not quite true�.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ir...early-america/

Snopes and Answers are entirely politicized and misleading. Don't believe one single thing they "rule" on.

OK, give us your alternative.

https://www.factcheck.org
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fact-checking_websites#United_States
I use the first two mostly for double checking political claims.
For urban legends, I use Snopes. In all cases, I try to find the
source and only cite the fact checking web pile or Wikipedia when I'm
busy, lazy, hit a paywall, or can't find anything better.

"There are so many coronavirus myths that even Snopes can’t keep up"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/media/2020/04/15/coronavirus-misinformation-snopes/

Thanks, Jeff.

Tom? Your turn!


--
- Frank Krygowski

http://www.aohflorida.org/the-irish-slave-trade/

No, Tom, you seem to have lost track of the conversation again. Please
try to pay attention.

You mocked Snopes and Answers as fact checking sites. I asked for
alternatives. Jeff gave some alternative fact checking sites. You still
haven't.

I'm sure the Hibernians are fine people. (I know quite a few in certain
chapters.) But that's hardly a general fact checking site.

So what general fact checking sites do you recommend?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 13:05:20 -0700, cyclintom wrote:


http://www.aohflorida.org/the-irish-slave-trade/

Oh dear. Obviously the writer nows nothing of the fuller history of
Ireland. Well before the English, there was the Roman Catholic church and
the Vikings.

On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 10:50:33 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 7/27/2020 7:13 AM, news18 wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jul 2020 03:26:21 -0700, Andre Jute wrote:

On Sunday, July 26, 2020 at 10:28:25 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

I suggest a simple test for the morality of the situation. If you
lived in Ireland during the 1740 famine, and were offered a free ride
to America in trade for some vaguely non-specific work situation,
would you take it when the only alternatives were starvation or
cannibalism? No need to answer, just think about it.

--
Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060
http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

It's not quite that simple, Jeff. For instance you make the assumption
that all these starving families could be reached to make the offer of
indenture equitably to all of them. It just doesn't answer to the
realities. But it is an easy and common error, widely also made by
professionals:

Snipping AJs story and to cut to the point, many Irish people were
seasonal labourers in England for centuries before the years of the
famine.

FWIW, that continued long after the famine. From what I've read, it was
still happening in the 1950s and 1960s, at least. I don't know if it
still happens today.

It was 'before the famines' that interested my for family history and its
existence isn't widely known.