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#201
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about f'ing time (bike rule enforcement)
On 2008-09-05, Bob wrote:
Theft is theft not because there is some physical law of nature that defines theft but because society has agreed to and lawmakers have codified a definition of theft. The rulers don't get to redefine the meaning in a 1984 sense. That is how all crimes are defined. No. The rulers decide what they want to be a crime for a variety of purposes. Various things are crimes simply to preserve the power of rulers. The laws you try to use to support your argument became law by virtue of the very same authority I didn't use any laws to support my argument. I used the common definition of words. Even if I did use some basic common law that does not undermine my argument in the least because it does not flow from "authority". Authority isn't needed to figure out that stealing your neighbor's car is a crime. that you now argue is a wrongful usurpation of people's rights, in this case some imagined "right" to drive. *sigh* Where did I argue driving was a right? I argued that government should not be a grantor of privilege. That by making driving a government granted privilege it gives government a huge amount of power to do things that undermine our liberty. In short, your alleged argument is nothing but a lot of hot air. I'll leave it at that. In short, your counter argument boils down to declarations like that. You don't have anything else but 'well that's what we are told, so it is'. Try thinking things through independently instead of just accepting what you were told and getting in a huff because someone doesn't accept it. |
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#202
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about f'ing time (bike rule enforcement)
On 2008-09-05, Bob wrote:
On Sep 4, 9:21*am, Brent P wrote: Again, I'll bring up writing a check that is against an account that does not exist and writing a check that overdraws your account. The former is theft, the later is a breach of contract. The former is crime, the later has mere privately imposed penalties (by the merchant and the bank). You are mistaken. If it is done intentionally, the latter is also a crime. That banks don't generally demand prosecution doesn't decriminalize it. Um, intent is exactly the difference I highlighted. Duh. No, actually you didn't highlight any difference in intent. You merely assumed that any overdrafts would of course be unintentional. Are you saying then- returning to the context of this sub thread- that habitual non-payment of child support is always, usually, or even occasionally unintentional? If so, you live in a dream world. If not, then why should it *not* be criminalized? Geebus. No Mr. strawman, 'did you stop beating your wife?' question asker who pulls things out his imagination. As to assuming unintentional overdrafts, if one overdraws HIS OWN VALID ACCOUNT with the intent of THEFT, he's got to be the STUPIDEST CRIMINAL the world has EVER seen. Because he just gave the people he stole from his name, address, bank info, and countless other information. That's got to be like robbing someone's home and INTENTIONALLY leaving one's wallet with ALL THE USUAL CONTENTS in it on the dining room table. |
#203
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about focking time (bike rule enforcement)
In chi.general Kristian M Zoerhoff wrote:
On 2008-09-03, Tom Sherman wrote: Brent P wrote: On 2008-09-03, Tom Keats wrote: argument rests on the case that driving on publicly financed roads amounts to a privilege, and in that case, I agree, but only because there are no pragmatic alternatives. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sure there are. Like bicycling, and public transit. Or taxicabs. Or having stuff delivered. I arrange my life to be as bike and walking friendly as possible short of taking a way lesser paying job in chicago proper but there is quite a lot I'd have to give up if I were to go 'car free'. And $20 cab rides are more than my cars cost me to do those things. (but I have the advantage of paid for cars and doing all my own work) It is about $60 to take a cab from Aurora to downtown. It's $5.65 to take Metra from Aurora to downtown. :-) It's even cheaper to go from Chicago to Schaumburg via the L to pace 600 (even faster if you catch the 606)... Course it takes a while... but where else can you get hours of entertainment for that price? -- John Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org (A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell) |
#204
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OT - Overpopulation (about f'ockng time (bike rule enforcement))
In chi.general Brent P wrote:
snip Not really overpopulation but the conditions they live under due to economic and government systems. (oddly enough though, those conditions are what encourages large familes) I don't think the government encourages a large family... remember the child tax credit cuts out at 16... 16!!!! Worse yet is AMT!!! http://www.themoneyalert.com/AMT.html "...The problem with the AMT lies not in its tax rate - 28 percent compared to the 35 percent top bracket of the regular tax system - but in the deductions it disallows. You can still take mortgage interest and charitable donations, but the AMT excludes state and local income taxes and property taxes, unreimbursed business expenses, child tax credits, tax preparation fees, legal fees and home-equity loan interest. Without those exemptions, you end up with higher taxable income. Simply living in a state with high property taxes or having a large family can trigger the AMT ..." AMT is the governments child tax cut subterfuge... you start out taking all these deductions but AMT adds back more than half by the time your done... -- John Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org (A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell) |
#205
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about f'ing time (bike rule enforcement)
In chi.general Tom Sherman wrote:
Bob Hunt wrote: [...] It is treated as theft because the Illinois legislature passed laws making that particular "breach of contract" a criminal offense. That is, of course, exactly my point. You apparently don't like it that elected lawmakers can do that or, at least, you don't like the laws making non-payment of child support a criminal offense. If it is the former, there's nothing left to say. If the latter, you have three obvious choices.[...] I think "elected lawbreakers" is more accurate than "elected lawmakers". Here's an article you might enjoy; http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/bells/ "...It's all wink wink, nod nod..." -- John Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org (A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell) |
#206
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about f'ing time (bike rule enforcement)
On 2008-09-05, Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:
In chi.general Tom Sherman wrote: Bob Hunt wrote: [...] It is treated as theft because the Illinois legislature passed laws making that particular "breach of contract" a criminal offense. That is, of course, exactly my point. You apparently don't like it that elected lawmakers can do that or, at least, you don't like the laws making non-payment of child support a criminal offense. If it is the former, there's nothing left to say. If the latter, you have three obvious choices.[...] I think "elected lawbreakers" is more accurate than "elected lawmakers". Here's an article you might enjoy; http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/bells/ "...It's all wink wink, nod nod..." No mention of jesse? |
#207
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OT - Overpopulation (about f'ockng time (bike rule enforcement))
On 2008-09-05, Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:
In chi.general Brent P wrote: snip Not really overpopulation but the conditions they live under due to economic and government systems. (oddly enough though, those conditions are what encourages large familes) I don't think the government encourages a large family... remember the child tax credit cuts out at 16... 16!!!! *sigh* not the US government, not yet anyway, governments in the third world. AMT is the governments child tax cut subterfuge... you start out taking all these deductions but AMT adds back more than half by the time your done... The AMT is the game of inflation. Here's the game plan. The government goes and taxes the rich because well lots of people like such class warfare. They define the 'rich' as a dollar amount and don't index it to any sort of inflation. The government through the privately owned federal reserve inflates. They devalue the money. Time goes by, now the average person is 'rich' and heavily taxed. |
#208
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OT - Overpopulation (about f'ockng time (bike rule enforcement))
In chi.general Brent P wrote:
On 2008-09-05, Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote: In chi.general Brent P wrote: snip Not really overpopulation but the conditions they live under due to economic and government systems. (oddly enough though, those conditions are what encourages large familes) I don't think the government encourages a large family... remember the child tax credit cuts out at 16... 16!!!! *sigh* not the US government, not yet anyway, governments in the third world. I don't think governments in the third world encourage overpopulation, the people need 10 children to work their farm to survive... A co-worker of mine from India always said the government would give you a pail and a brush as payment if you'd allow them to sterilize you... "India's state of emergency between 1975 and 1977 included an infamous family planning initiative beginning April 1976, which involved the vasectomy of thousands of men and tubal ligation of women, either for payment or under coercive conditions. The son of then-Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, Sanjay Gandhi, was largely blamed for what turned out to be a failed program.[20] A strong backlash against any initiative associated with family planning followed the highly controversial program, which continues into the 21st century.[21]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_sterilization AMT is the governments child tax cut subterfuge... you start out taking all these deductions but AMT adds back more than half by the time your done... The AMT is the game of inflation. Here's the game plan. The government goes and taxes the rich because well lots of people like such class warfare. They define the 'rich' as a dollar amount and don't index it to any sort of inflation. The government through the privately owned federal reserve inflates. They devalue the money. Time goes by, now the average person is 'rich' and heavily taxed. AMT disallows deductions your employer uses to calculate your withholding... That sort of messes up any additional credits they give because they only offset the new tax amount... -- John Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chicago Area Paddling/Fishing Page http://www.chicagopaddling.org http://www.chicagofishing.org (A Non-Commercial Web Site: No Sponsors, No Paid Ads and Nothing to Sell) |
#209
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OT - Overpopulation (about f'ockng time (bike rule enforcement))
On 2008-09-05, Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote:
In chi.general Brent P wrote: On 2008-09-05, Chicago Paddling-Fishing wrote: In chi.general Brent P wrote: snip Not really overpopulation but the conditions they live under due to economic and government systems. (oddly enough though, those conditions are what encourages large familes) I don't think the government encourages a large family... remember the child tax credit cuts out at 16... 16!!!! *sigh* not the US government, not yet anyway, governments in the third world. I don't think governments in the third world encourage overpopulation, the people need 10 children to work their farm to survive... Those governments create the conditions where they need ten kids to get by. Remove the corruption, the centralized power, etc and so forth and the standard of living would advance and people would lose the need for larger families. this has been seen everywhere it has been tried. A co-worker of mine from India always said the government would give you a pail and a brush as payment if you'd allow them to sterilize you... Yes, sponsored by eugenists but that's another story. AMT is the governments child tax cut subterfuge... you start out taking all these deductions but AMT adds back more than half by the time your done... The AMT is the game of inflation. Here's the game plan. The government goes and taxes the rich because well lots of people like such class warfare. They define the 'rich' as a dollar amount and don't index it to any sort of inflation. The government through the privately owned federal reserve inflates. They devalue the money. Time goes by, now the average person is 'rich' and heavily taxed. AMT disallows deductions your employer uses to calculate your withholding... That sort of messes up any additional credits they give because they only offset the new tax amount... *sigh* you're too caught up in the details. |
#210
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about f'ing time (bike rule enforcement)
In article ,
Brent P writes: On 2008-09-03, Tom Keats wrote: argument rests on the case that driving on publicly financed roads amounts to a privilege, and in that case, I agree, but only because there are no pragmatic alternatives. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Sure there are. Like bicycling, and public transit. Or taxicabs. Or having stuff delivered. I arrange my life to be as bike and walking friendly as possible short of taking a way lesser paying job in chicago proper but there is quite a lot I'd have to give up if I were to go 'car free'. And $20 cab rides are more than my cars cost me to do those things. (but I have the advantage of paid for cars and doing all my own work) I'm not saying /everybody/ can go car-free. But I'm sure a lot of people believe they can't, when they actually can (and should, if only to save $$$.) They just haven't their respective epiphanies about it yet. I leave it to individuals to make their own educated and thought-out choices. So I'm not downright ~advocating~ freedom from POV stewardship; I'm just vocally hoping people keep open minds, and consider they may have options of which they've heretofore been unaware, or have too summarily dismissed. I observe the trouble with POV stewardship is that it insidiously entails foot-in-the-door syndrome: if a POV is required for a certain application, it becomes too easy to "require" it for less pressing applications. In many cases there comes a point where the "need" to own a POV (and all the stressful baggage that comes with it) becomes phony. Same as when a junkie or alcoholic or crackhead "needs" more of their drug of choice: not for any real purpose, but just to get by and make it through another day, thereby rationalizing their "need." I find it so antithetical and irrational to seek freedom by complicating one's life with phony "needs." For the record, my current job relies on IC-engine'd vehicles -- especially semis, yard trucks and trans-ocean freighters, and I have to drive propane powered forky lifts, so North American consumers can buy cheap, cheesy, Made-In-China, dollar store junk. Sometimes I'd rather be mfg'ing & selling organically made bike trailers. Jump onto the "green" bandwagon. The more freedom people have, the more they can think clearly. Freedom is my goodwill wish for everybody in the world. (Except for incarcerated violent people.) cheers, Tom -- Nothing is safe from me. I'm really at: tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca |
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