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#901
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Trikki Beltran's bad concussion and his helmet
On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:56:11 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
wrote: wrote: Wow, _that's_ charitable! And a major non-sequitur! Did I say your brain-injured acquaintances are a waste of time? No, not even close. But let me ask: Of the brain injured and dead people you've known, how many were injured by cycling, and how many by other activities? I'm curious whether your group fits the national profile. All of them (save one) suffered their brain injuries in cycling accidents (and he suffered his in a mugging, coming to the aid of his brother). There were other serious accidents deaths from cycling, other than brain injury. I don't know that ANY of them would have been prevented by better helmets--not the point anymore. That is the point. Deaths in cycling are rare. And when someone gets slammed big-time be a car they will understandably have many other injuries too. Helmets can help in a small fraction of those rare incidents. They can probably help with some minor injuries too. So you're so strongly in favor of something that helps a small slice of very race events -- accidents wear the blow to the head is not too severe as to overwhelm these thin foam things on our heads but not so severe as to crack someones next or push in their face or cause other serios problems. Fine. But to think helmets are very important or nearly essential to safe cycling is just fooling yourself. JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
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#902
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Trikki Beltran's bad concussion and his helmet
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:56:11 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote: wrote: Wow, _that's_ charitable! And a major non-sequitur! Did I say your brain-injured acquaintances are a waste of time? No, not even close. But let me ask: Of the brain injured and dead people you've known, how many were injured by cycling, and how many by other activities? I'm curious whether your group fits the national profile. All of them (save one) suffered their brain injuries in cycling accidents (and he suffered his in a mugging, coming to the aid of his brother). There were other serious accidents deaths from cycling, other than brain injury. I don't know that ANY of them would have been prevented by better helmets--not the point anymore. That is the point. Deaths in cycling are rare. And when someone gets slammed big-time be a car they will understandably have many other injuries too. Helmets can help in a small fraction of those rare incidents. They can probably help with some minor injuries too. So you're so strongly in favor of something that helps a small slice of very race events -- accidents wear the blow to the head is not too severe as to overwhelm these thin foam things on our heads but not so severe as to crack someones next or push in their face or cause other serios problems. Fine. But to think helmets are very important or nearly essential to safe cycling is just fooling yourself. Now YOU'RE missing my point JT. I'll outline it again for you, and then I've said all I'm going to. Frank said a safer cycling helmet could be made, but it would have to look like a motorcycle helmet. I merely said that there's no way he could know that was the only way, given his apparent disinterest in acknowledging there is even a problem with cycling head injuries. He went on to say (as he has so often) that cycling is safe, implying broadly that special safety measures and devices were unnecessary--he would not in fact interest himself in safety devices--mainly because their promotion would discourage cycling. I told him that, having known much more than a few people seriously injured in cycling accidents (including myself), that avoiding the issue of cycling safety so as not to give the appearance that cycling is dangerous was more than a little callous. In fact, many of these head injuries occured while wearing a helmet (including my own). It is very much an open issue to me whether the helmet helped me at all in this case; Frank's answer is that he's a mechanical engineer (for crying out loud!) and how dare I call him on his disinterest in this issue. So for ME it's about more than helmets. For Frank, who knows--maybe the freedom to feel the wind in his hair, maybe the freedom to say these very, very, very few dead and maimed cyclists are insufficient cause to advocate safety--whether through better traffic management, law enforcement, or improved safety devices. Steve JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** -- Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 |
#903
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Trikki Beltran's bad concussion and his helmet
On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 14:12:23 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
wrote: Now YOU'RE missing my point JT. I'll outline it again for you, and then I've said all I'm going to. You're missing the most meta-point of all -- you're deeply, emotionally invested in the importance of helmets and unfortunately the reality you experience does not support that attachment. So you dance around. Among other things, Franks assertions should be forcing you to strip away the biases that cloud your thinking, but you can't seem to deal with that. JT **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** |
#904
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Trikki Beltran's bad concussion and his helmet
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
You're missing the most meta-point of all -- you're deeply, emotionally invested in the importance of helmets and unfortunately the reality you experience does not support that attachment. So you dance around. Among other things, Franks assertions should be forcing you to strip away the biases that cloud your thinking, but you can't seem to deal with that. JT Wow, John--years of therapy and no one's ever come to the root of my problem as you just have! I don't think you understand me at all. I agree that the newer helmets are likely of little significance in major trauma. The reality I have experienced is that protection against both head and other trauma while cycling is in fact a real issue. Meanwhile, Frank says it is not an issue, which is fine with me. Just don't lecture me about my "biases", and don't tell me that the dead and maimed shouldn't be important enough for me to be concerned about. Steve **************************** Remove "remove" to reply Visit http://www.jt10000.com **************************** -- Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS http://www.dentaltwins.com Brooklyn, NY 718-258-5001 |
#905
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Trikki Beltran's bad concussion and his helmet
In article bTGNe.221$Ck2.4@trndny04,
Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote: John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 12:56:11 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote: wrote: Wow, _that's_ charitable! And a major non-sequitur! Did I say your brain-injured acquaintances are a waste of time? No, not even close. But let me ask: Of the brain injured and dead people you've known, how many were injured by cycling, and how many by other activities? I'm curious whether your group fits the national profile. All of them (save one) suffered their brain injuries in cycling accidents (and he suffered his in a mugging, coming to the aid of his brother). There were other serious accidents deaths from cycling, other than brain injury. I don't know that ANY of them would have been prevented by better helmets--not the point anymore. That is the point. Deaths in cycling are rare. And when someone gets slammed big-time be a car they will understandably have many other injuries too. Helmets can help in a small fraction of those rare incidents. They can probably help with some minor injuries too. So you're so strongly in favor of something that helps a small slice of very race events -- accidents wear the blow to the head is not too severe as to overwhelm these thin foam things on our heads but not so severe as to crack someones next or push in their face or cause other serios problems. Fine. But to think helmets are very important or nearly essential to safe cycling is just fooling yourself. Now YOU'RE missing my point JT. I'll outline it again for you, and then I've said all I'm going to. Frank said a safer cycling helmet could be made, but it would have to look like a motorcycle helmet. I merely said that there's no way he could know that was the only way, given his apparent disinterest in acknowledging there is even a problem with cycling head injuries. He went on to say (as he has so often) that cycling is safe, implying broadly that special safety measures and devices were unnecessary--he would not in fact interest himself in safety devices--mainly because their promotion would discourage cycling. I told him that, having known much more than a few people seriously injured in cycling accidents (including myself), that avoiding the issue of cycling safety so as not to give the appearance that cycling is dangerous was more than a little callous. In fact, many of these head injuries occured while wearing a helmet (including my own). It is very much an open issue to me whether the helmet helped me at all in this case; Frank's answer is that he's a mechanical engineer (for crying out loud!) and how dare I call him on his disinterest in this issue. So for ME it's about more than helmets. For Frank, who knows--maybe the freedom to feel the wind in his hair, maybe the freedom to say these very, very, very few dead and maimed cyclists are insufficient cause to advocate safety--whether through better traffic management, law enforcement, or improved safety devices. The cost/benefit ratio for helmet promotion is very much greater than the cost/benefit ratio for informational programs aimed at cyclists and motorists. Who has denied that drawing attention to dangerous behaviors of cyclists and motorists is important? You falsely accuse Frank. Much good can be accomplished telling cyclists which of their behaviors are dangerous, such as riding the wrong side of the road. Much good could be accomplished by the Department of Motor Vehicles if they started adding test questions based on sections of the vehicle code that apply to cyclists. -- Michael Press |
#906
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Trikki Beltran's bad concussion and his helmet
RonSonic wrote:
Ahh, but he _could._ Ron As you well know, I've provided considerable detail, and citiations, regarding lighting systems. Many people appreciate the detailed responses, as well as the content on the web site (http://bicyclelighting.com). There are a few people for whom such detail has not served even to broaden their perspective, much less change their mind. If someone is actually interested in learning something, rather than just being a jerk, I am happy to provide citations. To some people, it's all about defending their faith, rather than looking objectively at the facts, so responding in detail is a waste of time. They know full well where to look for the details that they claim to need. |
#907
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Trikki Beltran's bad concussion and his helmet
Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote: Frank said a safer cycling helmet could be made, but it would have to look like a motorcycle helmet. I merely said that there's no way he could know that was the only way, given his apparent disinterest in acknowledging there is even a problem with cycling head injuries. Which is, of course, absolutely false. First: I listed at least four ways in which bike helmets could be made more protective. Not all of them required the helmet looking like a motorcycle helmet. Yes, it's true that current full-face motorcycle helmets would have those features; but that does NOT mean every helmet with those features would look like a motorcycle helmet. If that difference isn't apparent to you, I suggest some training in logic. Second: There are _many_ ways I know about helmet design, and what it would take to make helmets more protective. First, I've got degrees in Mechanical Engineering. I'm a licensed Professional Engineer (just as, I assume, you are a licensed dentist). I've studied the issue of bike helmets intensely for well over ten years. In fact, I first started learning about helmet design at a conference in 1970, where I attended a presentation on that topic. At one point, I even did comparative tests on a wide variety of foams used for impact protection. I'll admit I don't know much about teeth. But there's no way I'd say _you_ (a licensed dentist) don't know about teeth. Similarly, it's ludicrous for you to say I don't know about helmets. You don't have the knowledge or background to judge. He went on to say (as he has so often) that cycling is safe, implying broadly that special safety measures and devices were unnecessary--he would not in fact interest himself in safety devices--mainly because their promotion would discourage cycling. And this is true. In fact, I would not be interested in developing safer bike helmets for the same reason I would not be interested in developing safer pedestrian helmets. For both ordinary cycling and ordinary walking, the level of danger is low enough that special headgear is unnecessary. And we don't need people pretending otherwise. I told him that, having known much more than a few people seriously injured in cycling accidents (including myself), that avoiding the issue of cycling safety so as not to give the appearance that cycling is dangerous was more than a little callous. Yes, and I've known people that have been badly injured by walking. Worse, I've lost count of the friends I've lost to driving fatalities. Fact is, for every activity this side of knitting, you can list examples of tragic injuries. But your accusation that I avoid the issue of cycling safety simply shows that' you're speaking in ignorance. Read the safety articles at http://www.bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/index.html That's a website I helped found. I also wrote many of the articles posted there. And, BTW, I've been Safety Chairman of my fairly large bike club for many years. I've put on many presentations related to bike safety and taught many classes on bike safety, as well as other aspects of cycling. I'm a certified League Cycling Instructor. Have you done as much? But I'm very interested in your attitude that if someone is skeptical of helmets, they must not care about safety. IOW, your mind confuses "Safety" and "Helmet," as if helmets are all there is to bike safety. It's a common mistake since helmet promotion hit high gear - but it's (sorry) quite stupid. For Frank, who knows--maybe the freedom to feel the wind in his hair, maybe the freedom to say these very, very, very few dead and maimed cyclists are insufficient cause to advocate safety--whether through better traffic management, law enforcement, or improved safety devices. You've proven you know nothing about my background, the causes I advocate, my knowledge or my skills. When a person knows as little as you do about a subject, they really should stop talking. It's the only way to prevent looking foolish. - Frank Krygowski |
#908
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Trikki Beltran's bad concussion and his helmet
I submit that on or about Sun, 21 Aug 2005 00:24:12 GMT, the person
known to the court as SMS made a statement in Your Honour's bundle) to the following effect: As you well know, I've provided considerable detail, and citiations, regarding lighting systems. Albeit they fall short of actually supporting your dogmatic assertion that dynamo lighting is less "inadequate". Comparative per-mile casualty data would do. Indeed, that would seem to be the very minimum required for such a strongly-stated position. "Don't trust the generator lighting systems on these bikes!" - to set your own view above that of the manufacturers and owners of these bikes definitely needs some real, externally verifiable evidence. Many people appreciate the detailed responses, as well as the content on the web site (http://bicyclelighting.com). There are a few people for whom such detail has not served even to broaden their perspective, much less change their mind. Incredible, isn't it? People should be grateful for your taking time out of your busy schedule to tell them their experience counts for nothing, their judgment is worthless and their assessment of the benefits of different types of system is necessarily wrong! They should realise: you are one of Earth's greatest authorities on bicycle lighting! We know it's true because it's on a website somewhere... In reality, of course, you are once again accusing others of your own worst fault. The clue here is that those with whom you argue support *both* choices - dynamo or rechargeable - whereas you dismiss one out of hand, and killfile those who ask you for evidence to back that up. The crap about "broadening their perspective" is particularly ironic, since what you are doing is actually to /narrow/ perspective by dismissing dynamo lighting out of hand! Guy -- May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk 85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound |
#909
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Trikki Beltran's bad concussion and his helmet
I submit that on or about Mon, 08 Aug 2005 15:44:28 GMT, the person
known to the court as RonSonic made a statement in Your Honour's bundle) to the following effect: Ahh, but he _could._ As we see, Steven restricts himself to alluding to other times when he says he has cited relevant evidence. How dare we disagree with on of Earth's greatest experts? If he says something it is up to us to go and find the citations to back him up! If you keep pressing him for evidence you're asking to be killfiled, my friend! Guy -- May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk 85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound |
#910
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Trikki Beltran's bad concussion and his helmet
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