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#71
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Name of screw that holds the rear brake cable
On 8/21/2019 12:45 PM, Tosspot wrote:
On 19/08/2019 12:19, Sir Ridesalot wrote: snip I've seen a LOT of hex-key head bolts that the hex socket was basically stripped on so that even a proper size hex key no longer worked on it. That can happen if a substandard quality bolt has too much torque applied to it or if the wrong size hex key is used. AK has said that he used a U.S. Standard hex key on this bolt and that the head of it is NEARLY stripped to the point where he won't be able to tighten or loosen it. Again, his best bet is to take the bike to a bike shop so that he can get a new undamaged bolt and also the proper size hex key to use on it. Worth noting the next size up torx bit hammered in will sometimes get a rounded hex out. +1 Desperate situations sometimes require desperate measures. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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Name of screw that holds the rear brake cable
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 02:32:03 -0700 (PDT), AK
wrote: On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 2:17:33 AM UTC-5, Chalo wrote: John B. Slocomb wrote: Nope. The "NAS" number has changed but the same old bolt is still available. A NAS 147-53 is now called a MS25007-40 The AN- Army Navy specification series started in the early 1940s NAS- National Aerospace Standards, started in 1941 MS- Military standard started around the 1950s That conveniently ignores the fact that a 1/4"-28 screw isn't an M6x1.0 screw. There is no metric "internal wrenching bolt" so there's no such bolt on a recently manufactured bicycle (even a pretend bicycle like a Huffy). Don't be dissin my bike. :-) For the price, Huffy makes a fine bike. I've also had a fine Raleigh 3 speed that I logged thousands of miles with. Andy You just don't understand, do you? After all if you aren't riding a $3,000 bicycle and wearing at least $200 of special bicycling clothes and, of course, the $200 shoes, you just ain't to be noticed. A Huffy? Just stick some masking tape over the decals and rename it something like a "SUPER PESO LEGGERO LAMBREHINI" and tell people that the 5 speed gears are to build a super lightweight bike and you can join right in the game :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
#73
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Name of screw that holds the rear brake cable
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 13:04:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 8/21/2019 11:39 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 7:05:22 PM UTC-7, Chalo wrote: Tom Kunich wrote: By the way - It is NOT a "cap screw". It is as I said, and Internal Wrenching Bolt. Now they are often mislabeled and you'd find a Cap Screw in the wrong bin. I had to look up your laughable term to see if anybody else had heard of it. It turns out that an "internal wrenching bolt" is a Jim Crow-era NAS (US aviation industry) designation for a certain kind of cadmium-plated fastener which is by definition not metric. While the decorative head on a craptastic linear-pull brake cable fixing screw is superficially kind of similar, it's not an inch-sized, cadmium-plated, ludicrously expensive airplane part. So it's not what you say it is. But feel free to keep doubling down. You are perfectly welcome to invent any name you like for a common head shape. You can even tell everyone that because some have metric hex interiors instead of English size hex that it is a completely different head shape. Is there something wrong in your head for which you simply cannot agree on a commonly available part? Tom, the point is: many of us are very familiar with bike hardware. Only one of us seems to think we should call that thing an "internally wrenching bolt." That's true whether or not you can find it on a page devoted to aircraft hardware. Using that moniker is a failure to communicate. This reminds me of another tempest-in-a-teapot in the bicycling world. Back in the 1980s, perhaps, some manufacturers organization tried to change the words used for different types of bike tires. IIRC, they were happy enough with "tubulars" but they said almost all "clinchers" didn't really meet _their_ official definition of what a "clincher" tire was. So they said the name "tubular" could remain, but the proper name for what we call "clincher" was ... wait for it! ... "TIRE"! We all know how well that effort worked out. Many years ago I was working in the USAF Machine shop on a Sunday - doing a "home project" - and a guy from the fire department came in with an old rusty, maybe 3/8"-16 bolt, and says, "Can I give him one like this except but with "skinny" threads?" We spent some time with one idiot trying to explain to the other idiot what a skinny thread was and the "penny finally dropped". I found him a 3/8"-24 thread bolt in the junk box an he went away happy and I was left to ponder on whether the whole "outside world" measured threads as fat and skinny :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
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Name of screw that holds the rear brake cable
On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 11:22:40 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/21/2019 1:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 10:04:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/21/2019 11:39 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 7:05:22 PM UTC-7, Chalo wrote: Tom Kunich wrote: By the way - It is NOT a "cap screw". It is as I said, and Internal Wrenching Bolt. Now they are often mislabeled and you'd find a Cap Screw in the wrong bin. I had to look up your laughable term to see if anybody else had heard of it. It turns out that an "internal wrenching bolt" is a Jim Crow-era NAS (US aviation industry) designation for a certain kind of cadmium-plated fastener which is by definition not metric. While the decorative head on a craptastic linear-pull brake cable fixing screw is superficially kind of similar, it's not an inch-sized, cadmium-plated, ludicrously expensive airplane part. So it's not what you say it is. But feel free to keep doubling down. You are perfectly welcome to invent any name you like for a common head shape. You can even tell everyone that because some have metric hex interiors instead of English size hex that it is a completely different head shape. Is there something wrong in your head for which you simply cannot agree on a commonly available part? Tom, the point is: many of us are very familiar with bike hardware. Only one of us seems to think we should call that thing an "internally wrenching bolt." That's true whether or not you can find it on a page devoted to aircraft hardware. Using that moniker is a failure to communicate. This reminds me of another tempest-in-a-teapot in the bicycling world. Back in the 1980s, perhaps, some manufacturers organization tried to change the words used for different types of bike tires. IIRC, they were happy enough with "tubulars" but they said almost all "clinchers" didn't really meet _their_ official definition of what a "clincher" tire was. So they said the name "tubular" could remain, but the proper name for what we call "clincher" was ... wait for it! ... "TIRE"! We all know how well that effort worked out. -- - Frank Krygowski Frank, as a past teacher I am very surprised that you think you could call it "one of those things" or a "cap screw" which is a completely different shaped head. As a supposed mechanical engineer I am also surprised that you wouldn't know WHY that head has the specific shape. You continually surprise me with the mechanical engineering education of a 1st grader. Excuse me but if you don't think that things should be called by their correct designation you are pretty silly. You can join Chalo who thinks that it is a "Jim Crow Era" designation of an English threaded component. Here are the relevant questions: Have you tried walking into a bike shop and asking for an "Internally Wrenched Bolt" in the appropriate size (which is probably 5mm x 0.8, or maybe 6mm x 1.0)? Have you tried that at a hardware store? If so, what were the responses? If not, why don't you try those and report back? I maintain that it's silly to insist on an "official name" that is almost universally unrecognized. -- - Frank Krygowski I asked you a question: As a teacher did you recommend to your students to put any name they felt like on a component? Second - are you even AWARE that the design of that head was very specific for a purpose? For someone that claims to have been a mechanical engineer this should have been right down your alley and instead it appears that your head is up your ass. |
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Name of screw that holds the rear brake cable
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 13:09:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 8/21/2019 12:19 PM, jbeattie wrote: Having looked through the fasteners at my local Ace many, many times, I can guaranty you there there is no drawer, box or fastener labeled "Internal Wrenching Bolt." Maybe such a bolt exists, but what I use on my bike is labeled as a socket head cap screw. Go to Grainger: https://tinyurl.com/y4y89fww Type in "internal Wrenching Bolt" and see what comes up. Nada. An internal wrenching bolt is some odd-ball aircraft/military fastener with inch dimensions. It's not a metric fastener. Now go to the internet and type in "internal wrenching bolt" -- and get a bunch of military crap. https://military-fasteners.com/bolts...renching+bolts The military has a long history of unusual names. For example: ================================================= ========== "'I understand,'' the Maine Republican said, ''that there is a story coming out about a $600 toilet seat.'' ''I think that gives new meaning to the word throne,'' Cohen added before casually dropping the subject and moving on to weightier issues, such as space defense and NATO burden sharing. Within hours, the Defense Department publicists had cranked out a statement challenging the senator`s characterization of the transaction. Actually, the statement said, the Pentagon didn`t pay more than $600 for a toilet seat. ''We believe the senator was referring to a lavatory cover which we have recently learned has been priced at more than $600 by the contractor, the Lockheed Corp.,'' the statement said. According to Nick Duretta of Lockheed`s public information office, there is a difference between a toilet seat and the lavatory cover purchased for P-3 patrol planes that are now out of production. ''It (the lavatory cover) is more complex than a toilet seat,'' Duretta said." ================================================= ========= That was pretty common knowledge in the sections that were in the business of trying to keep experimental airplanes flying) The story was that the A.F. had ordered a toilet "can" cover for an experimental aircraft for which there was no spares in the supply system, or manufacturer's stocks. What is the correct price to set up and manufacture a cover, probably dimensioned in tenths of thousands and made of some erotic material? At the same time the F111B had some nose wheel landing gear bushings that were called "fabroid bushings" that did not require lubrication. They also failed very frequently, sometimes a frequently as every flight and depending on the bushing they might cost $100 each and we usually changed them as a full set so several hundred dollars per set. And there were 3 experimental aircraft in the fleet. What to do? -- Cheers, John B. |
#76
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Name of screw that holds the rear brake cable
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 11:42:06 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/20/2019 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/20/2019 8:11 PM, AMuzi wrote: That just happened to me Saturday. "I've looked everywhere for..." "Simplex 503. $1.95" Or $199.00 elsewhere, I see: https://www.ebay.com/i/113775529548 Maybe it wasn't exactly the same? Aha! We have several libraries here. Found it! http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/simplex1.jpg See penultimate item near bottom of page. Look what I found in one of my junk boxes. Simplex 637P and 637NI front derailleurs: http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Simplex-derailleur.jpg Notice that the two derailleurs are slight different. They were probably left-over from upgrading 1960's Peugeot bicycles in the distant past. I have no idea why I saved them. Make me rich and they're both yours. No extra charge for the dirt and rust. https://www.bikeboompeugeot.com/Parts%20and%20Accessories/Parts%20&%20Accessories.htm Methinks if I dig deeper into the junk box, I might find the original Simplex front derailleurs and other parts and pieces. I didn't think anyone would pay $200 for Simplex parts, but apparently there is a demand and some sales. Sold Simplex derailleurs on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=simple+derailleur&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complet e=1 I guess I should upgrade the name of my junk box to "unsorted vintage components". -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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Name of screw that holds the rear brake cable
On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 6:25:43 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 11:42:06 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 8/20/2019 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/20/2019 8:11 PM, AMuzi wrote: That just happened to me Saturday. "I've looked everywhere for..." "Simplex 503. $1.95" Or $199.00 elsewhere, I see: https://www.ebay.com/i/113775529548 Maybe it wasn't exactly the same? Aha! We have several libraries here. Found it! http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/simplex1.jpg See penultimate item near bottom of page. Look what I found in one of my junk boxes. Simplex 637P and 637NI front derailleurs: http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Simplex-derailleur.jpg Notice that the two derailleurs are slight different. They were probably left-over from upgrading 1960's Peugeot bicycles in the distant past. I have no idea why I saved them. Make me rich and they're both yours. No extra charge for the dirt and rust. https://www.bikeboompeugeot.com/Parts%20and%20Accessories/Parts%20&%20Accessories.htm Methinks if I dig deeper into the junk box, I might find the original Simplex front derailleurs and other parts and pieces. I didn't think anyone would pay $200 for Simplex parts, but apparently there is a demand and some sales. Sold Simplex derailleurs on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=simple+derailleur&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complet e=1 I guess I should upgrade the name of my junk box to "unsorted vintage components". -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 I find it quite humorous that a few here start an argument over what a part is called. :-) Andy |
#78
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Name of screw that holds the rear brake cable
On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 6:25:43 PM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 11:42:06 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 8/20/2019 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/20/2019 8:11 PM, AMuzi wrote: That just happened to me Saturday. "I've looked everywhere for..." "Simplex 503. $1.95" Or $199.00 elsewhere, I see: https://www.ebay.com/i/113775529548 Maybe it wasn't exactly the same? Aha! We have several libraries here. Found it! http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/simplex1.jpg See penultimate item near bottom of page. Look what I found in one of my junk boxes. Simplex 637P and 637NI front derailleurs: http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/Simplex-derailleur.jpg Notice that the two derailleurs are slight different. They were probably left-over from upgrading 1960's Peugeot bicycles in the distant past. I have no idea why I saved them. Make me rich and they're both yours. No extra charge for the dirt and rust. https://www.bikeboompeugeot.com/Parts%20and%20Accessories/Parts%20&%20Accessories.htm Methinks if I dig deeper into the junk box, I might find the original Simplex front derailleurs and other parts and pieces. I didn't think anyone would pay $200 for Simplex parts, but apparently there is a demand and some sales. Sold Simplex derailleurs on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=simple+derailleur&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complet e=1 I guess I should upgrade the name of my junk box to "unsorted vintage components". -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 Is the picture P1010012 a TV antenna? Andy |
#79
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Name of screw that holds the rear brake cable
On 8/21/2019 6:50 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 11:22:40 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/21/2019 1:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 10:04:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/21/2019 11:39 AM, Tom Kunich wrote: On Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 7:05:22 PM UTC-7, Chalo wrote: Tom Kunich wrote: By the way - It is NOT a "cap screw". It is as I said, and Internal Wrenching Bolt. Now they are often mislabeled and you'd find a Cap Screw in the wrong bin. I had to look up your laughable term to see if anybody else had heard of it. It turns out that an "internal wrenching bolt" is a Jim Crow-era NAS (US aviation industry) designation for a certain kind of cadmium-plated fastener which is by definition not metric. While the decorative head on a craptastic linear-pull brake cable fixing screw is superficially kind of similar, it's not an inch-sized, cadmium-plated, ludicrously expensive airplane part. So it's not what you say it is. But feel free to keep doubling down. You are perfectly welcome to invent any name you like for a common head shape. You can even tell everyone that because some have metric hex interiors instead of English size hex that it is a completely different head shape. Is there something wrong in your head for which you simply cannot agree on a commonly available part? Tom, the point is: many of us are very familiar with bike hardware. Only one of us seems to think we should call that thing an "internally wrenching bolt." That's true whether or not you can find it on a page devoted to aircraft hardware. Using that moniker is a failure to communicate. This reminds me of another tempest-in-a-teapot in the bicycling world. Back in the 1980s, perhaps, some manufacturers organization tried to change the words used for different types of bike tires. IIRC, they were happy enough with "tubulars" but they said almost all "clinchers" didn't really meet _their_ official definition of what a "clincher" tire was. So they said the name "tubular" could remain, but the proper name for what we call "clincher" was ... wait for it! ... "TIRE"! We all know how well that effort worked out. -- - Frank Krygowski Frank, as a past teacher I am very surprised that you think you could call it "one of those things" or a "cap screw" which is a completely different shaped head. As a supposed mechanical engineer I am also surprised that you wouldn't know WHY that head has the specific shape. You continually surprise me with the mechanical engineering education of a 1st grader. Excuse me but if you don't think that things should be called by their correct designation you are pretty silly. You can join Chalo who thinks that it is a "Jim Crow Era" designation of an English threaded component. Here are the relevant questions: Have you tried walking into a bike shop and asking for an "Internally Wrenched Bolt" in the appropriate size (which is probably 5mm x 0.8, or maybe 6mm x 1.0)? Have you tried that at a hardware store? If so, what were the responses? If not, why don't you try those and report back? I maintain that it's silly to insist on an "official name" that is almost universally unrecognized. -- - Frank Krygowski I asked you a question: I think you should go first. Why didn't you answer the above? As a teacher did you recommend to your students to put any name they felt like on a component? One thing I taught was not to obfuscate using weird jargon. Correct names for parts? Certainly. Obscure names used in communication with non-specialists? Not a good idea, unless one first defines the terms. And I did counsel them to define obscure terms. Now, if you went into a bike shop and said "This stripped bolt is called an Internal Wrenching Bolt. Can I buy one?" I'm sure they would say "Um, yes sir, we've got those." But when you left, they'd be laughing about "internal wrenching." Second - are you even AWARE that the design of that head was very specific for a purpose? I'm aware of a larger than normal radius between the body and the head, to reduce stress concentration in tension. But that doesn't seem to be what you're imagining. So what, precisely, _are_ you imagining? You haven't explained it sufficiently. (And if, on a test, you gave me the vague answer you gave here previously, you'd lose points.) -- - Frank Krygowski |
#80
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Name of screw that holds the rear brake cable
On 8/21/2019 6:54 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 21 Aug 2019 13:09:30 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 8/21/2019 12:19 PM, jbeattie wrote: Having looked through the fasteners at my local Ace many, many times, I can guaranty you there there is no drawer, box or fastener labeled "Internal Wrenching Bolt." Maybe such a bolt exists, but what I use on my bike is labeled as a socket head cap screw. Go to Grainger: https://tinyurl.com/y4y89fww Type in "internal Wrenching Bolt" and see what comes up. Nada. An internal wrenching bolt is some odd-ball aircraft/military fastener with inch dimensions. It's not a metric fastener. Now go to the internet and type in "internal wrenching bolt" -- and get a bunch of military crap. https://military-fasteners.com/bolts...renching+bolts The military has a long history of unusual names. For example: ================================================== ========= "'I understand,'' the Maine Republican said, ''that there is a story coming out about a $600 toilet seat.'' ''I think that gives new meaning to the word throne,'' Cohen added before casually dropping the subject and moving on to weightier issues, such as space defense and NATO burden sharing. Within hours, the Defense Department publicists had cranked out a statement challenging the senator`s characterization of the transaction. Actually, the statement said, the Pentagon didn`t pay more than $600 for a toilet seat. ''We believe the senator was referring to a lavatory cover which we have recently learned has been priced at more than $600 by the contractor, the Lockheed Corp.,'' the statement said. According to Nick Duretta of Lockheed`s public information office, there is a difference between a toilet seat and the lavatory cover purchased for P-3 patrol planes that are now out of production. ''It (the lavatory cover) is more complex than a toilet seat,'' Duretta said." ================================================== ======== That was pretty common knowledge in the sections that were in the business of trying to keep experimental airplanes flying) The story was that the A.F. had ordered a toilet "can" cover for an experimental aircraft for which there was no spares in the supply system, or manufacturer's stocks. What is the correct price to set up and manufacture a cover, probably dimensioned in tenths of thousands and made of some erotic material? Hmm. I'd first do away with the "erotic" material. You don't want flyboys getting hot, bothered and distracted. Secondly, find a way to avoid tolerances as small as tenths. One reason our students went through some machine shop fundamentals was so they would realize how much work and expense is involved in "plus or minus one thousandth," let alone one tenth. But I once worked with a guy who had done design work for a company producing military helicopters. (Sorry, I forget which.) He said that in the engineering drawing room (back in the days of drafting boards) there was a big display up on one wall, a selection of tools. The sign said something like "They have to repair it with THESE." The idea, supposedly, was to avoid exotic requirements in tools. One would think the same idea should apply to toilet seats. At the same time the F111B had some nose wheel landing gear bushings that were called "fabroid bushings" that did not require lubrication. They also failed very frequently, sometimes a frequently as every flight and depending on the bushing they might cost $100 each and we usually changed them as a full set so several hundred dollars per set. And there were 3 experimental aircraft in the fleet. What to do? That sounds like a terrible design flaw. -- - Frank Krygowski |
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