Novice Looking for Tactical Advice

So I'm 45, never raced before, but jumped in this year and am trying
to learn the game. Have raced in 1 TT, 4 crits and 5 RR, mostly in a
local weekly series. Have spent most of my time on the back just
trying not to get dropped. Until tonight . . . when I was able to be
part of a 3 man break. The three consisted of myself and a fellow
team member (also a novice) and a guy from another team (experienced
racer).

Well, for the first few miles he was sharing the work, but then told
us he couldn't help us anymore. It was a windy day and he refused to
do any work. My teamate and I tried to slow enough to force him to
the front, but he wouldn't go. We tried a break, but he was just as
strong and able to hang. He ended up winning the sprint and we took
2-3. He won the sprint because his sprint tactics were obviously far
superior because of his experience.

That doesn't bother me because sprints are a whole deal in themselves
that take time to learn. Neither does his sitting back - it was the
smart thing for him to do. What does bother me is that it never
should have come down to the sprint. I think 2 team members should be
able to figure out a way to drop one guy from another team long before
the end of the race, but we had no idea how to do it. To his credit,
he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
would have worn him out. Does this sound right? I'm not sure because
as windy as it was, I'm not sure anyone could have lasted long out
front by themselves. Any other ideas on how we could have handled
this? I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
out what the lesson is that I should have learned!

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

On Jun 6, 8:47 am, Frank Taco wrote:
To his credit,
he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
would have worn him out. Does this sound right?

To his credit, he told you the truth.

I've always liked this story:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...dab914edba3a2f

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 06:47:17 -0000, Frank Taco
wrote:

So I'm 45, never raced before, but jumped in this year and am trying
to learn the game. Have raced in 1 TT, 4 crits and 5 RR, mostly in a
local weekly series. Have spent most of my time on the back just
trying not to get dropped. Until tonight . . . when I was able to be
part of a 3 man break. The three consisted of myself and a fellow
team member (also a novice) and a guy from another team (experienced
racer).

Well, for the first few miles he was sharing the work, but then told
us he couldn't help us anymore. It was a windy day and he refused to
do any work. My teamate and I tried to slow enough to force him to
the front, but he wouldn't go. We tried a break, but he was just as
strong and able to hang. He ended up winning the sprint and we took
2-3. He won the sprint because his sprint tactics were obviously far
superior because of his experience.

That doesn't bother me because sprints are a whole deal in themselves
that take time to learn. Neither does his sitting back - it was the
smart thing for him to do. What does bother me is that it never
should have come down to the sprint. I think 2 team members should be
able to figure out a way to drop one guy from another team long before
the end of the race, but we had no idea how to do it. To his credit,
he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
would have worn him out. Does this sound right? I'm not sure because
as windy as it was, I'm not sure anyone could have lasted long out
front by themselves. Any other ideas on how we could have handled
this? I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
out what the lesson is that I should have learned!

Attacking him in turn would be the right move, assuming one of you
felt you could stay away alone to the end.

The other possible move would be to really force him to pull by simply
stopping riding unless he did so. But that woudl require you two to
be willing to be caught if he did called your bluff.
--
JT
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On Jun 6, 2:47 am, Frank Taco wrote:
So I'm 45, never raced before, but jumped in this year and am trying
to learn the game. Have raced in 1 TT, 4 crits and 5 RR, mostly in a
local weekly series. Have spent most of my time on the back just
trying not to get dropped. Until tonight . . . when I was able to be
part of a 3 man break. The three consisted of myself and a fellow
team member (also a novice) and a guy from another team (experienced
racer).

Well, for the first few miles he was sharing the work, but then told
us he couldn't help us anymore. It was a windy day and he refused to
do any work. My teamate and I tried to slow enough to force him to
the front, but he wouldn't go. We tried a break, but he was just as
strong and able to hang. He ended up winning the sprint and we took
2-3. He won the sprint because his sprint tactics were obviously far
superior because of his experience.

That doesn't bother me because sprints are a whole deal in themselves
that take time to learn. Neither does his sitting back - it was the
smart thing for him to do. What does bother me is that it never
should have come down to the sprint. I think 2 team members should be
able to figure out a way to drop one guy from another team long before
the end of the race, but we had no idea how to do it. To his credit,
he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
would have worn him out. Does this sound right? I'm not sure because
as windy as it was, I'm not sure anyone could have lasted long out
front by themselves. Any other ideas on how we could have handled
this? I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
out what the lesson is that I should have learned!

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

It's nice that the guy took the time to explain the situation after
the race. When you have two on one, alternating attacks is the way to
go. A little trash talk helps. As your teammate takes off, you
sitting in second, make no move at all, let the distance grow, the guy
in back will get nervous, and you chime in with, "I've always felt
first and third was better for the team than second and third." That
usually shakes something loose. Then you hang on his tail. Repeat as
necessary. It also helps if you and your teammate use the same
language - then it's the team strategy.

R

On Jun 6, 1:47 am, Frank Taco wrote:

Any other ideas on how we could have handled
this?

Easy. Have one guy sneak up in back of him and stick a tire pump
through his rear wheel.

You've probably seen that one in the movies, if you think for a
second.

I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
out what the lesson is that I should have learned!

(but seriously, folks): Yup, attack in turn. Don't let the enemy
shelter on your wheel(s) before, during, after exchanges.
--D-y

On Jun 6, 6:55 am, " wrote:
On Jun 6, 1:47 am, Frank Taco wrote:

Any other ideas on how we could have handled
this?

I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
out what the lesson is that I should have learned!

(but seriously, folks): Yup, attack in turn. Don't let the enemy
shelter on your wheel(s) before, during, after exchanges.

Here's the problem - Frank and his teammate simply weren't experienced
enough to have the confidence to stage attack and counter. What's
more, one attacks, the other then sits on the wheel of the experienced
guy and then when the attacker is caught and the teammate now counter
attacks IMMEDIATELY which is the only way this strategy works, the now
tired teammate is dropped.

In any case the two guys that are simply hanging on cannot beat a
stronger rider. That's the real truth behind racing.

Frank and his teammate are still building strength, endurance and
speed. This will continue for 5 years before you hit pretty much your
peak. I think that Frank should be proud of his accomplishments and
not worry too much about missed opportunities.

On Jun 6, 8:47 am, Frank Taco wrote:
So I'm 45, never raced before, but jumped in this year and am trying
to learn the game. Have raced in 1 TT, 4 crits and 5 RR, mostly in a
local weekly series. Have spent most of my time on the back just
trying not to get dropped. Until tonight . . . when I was able to be
part of a 3 man break. The three consisted of myself and a fellow
team member (also a novice) and a guy from another team (experienced
racer).

Well, for the first few miles he was sharing the work, but then told
us he couldn't help us anymore. It was a windy day and he refused to
do any work. My teamate and I tried to slow enough to force him to
the front, but he wouldn't go. We tried a break, but he was just as
strong and able to hang. He ended up winning the sprint and we took
2-3. He won the sprint because his sprint tactics were obviously far
superior because of his experience.

That doesn't bother me because sprints are a whole deal in themselves
that take time to learn. Neither does his sitting back - it was the
smart thing for him to do. What does bother me is that it never
should have come down to the sprint. I think 2 team members should be
able to figure out a way to drop one guy from another team long before
the end of the race, but we had no idea how to do it. To his credit,
he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
would have worn him out. Does this sound right? I'm not sure because
as windy as it was, I'm not sure anyone could have lasted long out
front by themselves. Any other ideas on how we could have handled
this? I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
out what the lesson is that I should have learned!

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

As others have said, sounds like he told the truth (after the race).
Another thing to do since it was a windy day was to ride all the way
to one side of the road in a crosswind to deprive him of a good draft.
You can also wait til the last minute and each of you break to either
side of the road and do a half-hearted early sprint. He'll have to
chose one wheel, and once he does, that guy goes all out and the other
guy hangs back and jumps on the other guys wheel into 3rd position,
then nips him at the line.

Sounds like you had fun nonetheless, and progress too!

Joseph

On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 06:47:17 -0000, Frank Taco wrote:

So I'm 45, never raced before, but jumped in this year and am trying
to learn the game. Have raced in 1 TT, 4 crits and 5 RR, mostly in a
local weekly series. Have spent most of my time on the back just
trying not to get dropped. Until tonight . . . when I was able to be
part of a 3 man break. The three consisted of myself and a fellow
team member (also a novice) and a guy from another team (experienced
racer).

Well, for the first few miles he was sharing the work, but then told
us he couldn't help us anymore. It was a windy day and he refused to
do any work. My teamate and I tried to slow enough to force him to
the front, but he wouldn't go. We tried a break, but he was just as
strong and able to hang. He ended up winning the sprint and we took
2-3. He won the sprint because his sprint tactics were obviously far
superior because of his experience.

That doesn't bother me because sprints are a whole deal in themselves
that take time to learn. Neither does his sitting back - it was the
smart thing for him to do. What does bother me is that it never
should have come down to the sprint. I think 2 team members should be
able to figure out a way to drop one guy from another team long before
the end of the race, but we had no idea how to do it. To his credit,
he came by after the race and told us that what we should have done is
take turns attacking and he would have had to chase and eventually we
would have worn him out. Does this sound right? I'm not sure because
as windy as it was, I'm not sure anyone could have lasted long out
front by themselves. Any other ideas on how we could have handled
this? I'd be happy to chalk this up to experience if I could figure
out what the lesson is that I should have learned!

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

Yep, he told you the truth. One of you takes off and the other just sits on HIS
tire. Rinse and repeat.

The other thing is that you're a fresh minted newb and you got to stand on a box
after a race, which ain't bad.

Ron

wrote:
As others have said, sounds like he told the truth (after the race).
Another thing to do since it was a windy day was to ride all the way
to one side of the road in a crosswind to deprive him of a good draft.

If they're beginners they would probably lack the bike handling confidence
to ride in the gutter, but skilled exponents in windy areas can make a
wheelsuckers life pretty tough.