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#21
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Bicycle Parts in the News
On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 9:59:55 PM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 21:12:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich wrote: Today in the Senate we heard Adam Schiff do what he does best - lie. He did everything from straight out lying to misrepresentation of things that others said by taking them completely out of context. This was the Democrat Party in its finest hour. I expect you could find a case of a Republican doing that but it is unusual. Still suffering from that irony deficiency, I see. That is why the Democrats have been playing them like harps for the last dozen years - the Republicans continue to bend over backwards in the attempt to be reasonable and fair when the Democrats are using it to be unreasonable and unfair. May God save the souls of the Democrats because I will not. I thank God that he presented President Trump at the correct time. Oh my. Your sense of reality is so twisted and warped that it's really quite astonishing. well, with my twisted sense of reality why don't you tell me how long Democrats have been in power in Chicago? |
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#22
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Bicycle Parts in the News
On Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 7:04:02 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/22/2020 11:43 PM, Tim McNamara wrote: On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 06:08:46 +0700, John B wrote: On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:25:10 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote: On Tue, 21 Jan 2020 12:06:06 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich wrote: On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:04:05 PM UTC-8, Chalo wrote: Tom Kunich wrote: Murder by cop. Not at all infrequent. Fixed that for you. The fact that you don't like cops doesn't change in the least that people directly with police guns trained on them will make threatening moves purposely having themselves killed. Whether you like cops or not that is not murder. Would it be murder if it was a police officer with gang member guns trained on him, who then made a move perceived as threatening and got shot? You bet it would. Prosecuted, signed, sealed, delivered to jail. Most people wouldn't ask any questions (at least most people who are white and middle class). Cops get a pass on shooting people unnecessarily. The "fog of war," needing to make a "split second decision," "warrior" training, etc., etc. Not sure what the threat is when it's a kid who's unarmed, 50 feet away and facing away from the cop. Or when it's a black guy seated in his car who lawfully informs the officer that he has a conceal and carry permit and is armed, but is shot multiple times within 30 seconds of that (with the victim's wife and child in the car). Or when a woman calls the police about a neighborhood disturbance that sounds like a person being harmed and is shot and killed when she approaches the police car that responded to her call. Or when it's a cop who tells his partner he's going to shoot and kill the guy as they drive up in their cruiser, caught on the dash cam, and then does so *and* plants a gun to implicate the victim as the cause of the shooting. I guess those are acceptable losses in an increasingly totalitarian America. Well, of course, the answer is to disarm the police. No. It might work in London (are bobbies still unarmed?) but America is one of the most violent societies on the planet, except for those engaged in actual war. Disarming seems unwise and too "one size fits all." Better training including resources to understand and cope with problems like mental illness in the community they serve would be a better choice. Learn to ask questions before shooting. In our area there are social workers paired with police officers for calls where the suspect is known to be or is thought likely to be mentally ill. This seems to have reduced these incidents, although it's early days and whether or not the program works and is sustainable is yet to be seen, but it's promising. "America is one of the most violent societies on the planet" Your premise is greatly overstated. US rate is lower than Greenland for example: https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/ind...RC.P5/rankings -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 What most people don't know that in the "civilized" world the rates of crime are very nearly identical. Germany, for instance, doesn't put many of them in prison because of the cost and hence the same people commit crime after crime. In the US we imprison a FAR greater number of criminals. But then what in the hell do they do when they get out? They've lost a large part of their lives, they are in financially an untenable position and usually with no job prospects. In short - neither case works. What does work is: 1. Imprison people and treat them psychologically while drying them out since most are alcoholics or drug users. These inevitably are treatable conditions. Now you have someone that doesn't want to use drugs or alcohol and doesn't want to commit crimes. 2. TEACH THEM A TRADE. Since the largest cause of crime and drug use is the feeling of total helplessness and anger because of that, you have to teach them how to take care of themselves. This actually works and small programs that used this method had less than a tenth of a percent recidivism. The problem was that they could only teach people computer skills and most people don't really have an aptitude for that. So other work training programs would have to be used. |
#23
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Bicycle Parts in the News
On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:04:13 +0700, John B
wrote: Back in the day the police walked a beat and the cop knew all about who should be there and what they should be doing and everybody knew him. I suspect that law enforcement was a totally different thing then today where the average citizen's only contact with the police is seeing them ride by in their "cruiser". I think the majority of cops, especially urban cops, would agree that policing is a very different thing than when I was young 50 years ago. There were no beat cops as such in my home town, instead they were all in suqd cars driving around, but they still knew a lot of people and what should be going on where. My Dad knew every cop in town through his business, so it was made clear to me that I had to fly pretty straight as a result- and I did. I was a boring kid and grew up to be a boring adult, which doesn't seem like a bad thing now. At least here, the police seem more like a paramilitary organization than police as I once understood them. They drive SUV battlewagons, wear body armor, dark eyewear, have buzz cuts, survey but make as little contact as possible with the populace. And around here, the "worst" neighborhoods seem on par than the good neighborhoods in Chicago. Maybe it is a different world now, I wouldn't know. But it seems like the "warrior" training mentality for cops results in quick triggers. Years back a different president came up with some money for neighborhood policing initiatives, based on the old beat cop model. It worked well in many parts of the country, but it didn't stick. |
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Bicycle Parts in the News
On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 09:07:44 -0800 (PST), Chalo
wrote: Places where cops don't usually have guns exhibit much lower crime rates than places where they do. Of course, those places also have sane ideas about permitting real people to have guns in public, not just cops. In which direction are you positing cause and effect? Do cops carrying guns increase the crime rate, or are cops less likely to carry guns in places where the crime rate is lower? |
#25
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Bicycle Parts in the News
On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:57:04 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote: 1. Imprison people and treat them psychologically while drying them out since most are alcoholics or drug users. These inevitably are treatable conditions. Now you have someone that doesn't want to use drugs or alcohol and doesn't want to commit crimes. While you oversimplify a bit, it is true that a large percentage of convicts in the have psychological and/or substance abuse problems. Treating those does result in lower recidivism rates. 2. TEACH THEM A TRADE. Since the largest cause of crime and drug use is the feeling of total helplessness and anger because of that, you have to teach them how to take care of themselves. A good idea. I remember reading about one well-known convict who learned jewelry making in prison and did make a substantial part of his living that way for the rest of his days rather than returning to the drug manufacturing that put him in prison. Granted that is anecdote rather than data. But even a bit broader than trade is reintegrating parolees into society. Work and economic self-support is hugely important, but many perhaps most employers simply will not hire people who have been incarcerated. So even if they have a trade they've learned, they can't get a job. In some states parolled felons can't vote, another bar to being an accepted member of society. Another piece is creating civility in jails, which are often savage places rife with internal crime, gang activity, ready access to drugs, rape and intimidation, etc. Dehumanizing people and training them to be better criminals probably doesn't help. This actually works and small programs that used this method had less than a tenth of a percent recidivism. The problem was that they could only teach people computer skills and most people don't really have an aptitude for that. So other work training programs would have to be used. Oh yeah. There is a diversity of aptitudes in prisons just like anywhere else, and one size doesn't fit all. |
#26
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Bicycle Parts in the News
On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:43:36 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote: On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 9:59:55 PM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote: On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 21:12:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich wrote: Today in the Senate we heard Adam Schiff do what he does best - lie. He did everything from straight out lying to misrepresentation of things that others said by taking them completely out of context. This was the Democrat Party in its finest hour. I expect you could find a case of a Republican doing that but it is unusual. Still suffering from that irony deficiency, I see. That is why the Democrats have been playing them like harps for the last dozen years - the Republicans continue to bend over backwards in the attempt to be reasonable and fair when the Democrats are using it to be unreasonable and unfair. May God save the souls of the Democrats because I will not. I thank God that he presented President Trump at the correct time. Oh my. Your sense of reality is so twisted and warped that it's really quite astonishing. well, with my twisted sense of reality why don't you tell me how long Democrats have been in power in Chicago? LOL! Ah, good old Richard J. Daley. He was so popular that people voted for him three or four times in every election, and even dead people voted for him. I was in high school when he died and when I left to go to college stopped paying any attention to Chicago politics. I don't even know if there's been a Republican mayor there in the past 45 years. If I recall correctly, Daley was succeeded by Harold Washington- who was black- and whites fled to the suburbs in droves. Who was next- Michael Bilandic or something like that? Wasn't he the guy who got voted out because of utter incompetence in managing snowplowing after a major storm (I recall the city not being able to afford fuel or something like that). Traditionally the mayor of Chicago has way more political clout than the governor of Illinois. Speaking of which, Illinois has a spectacular record of putting former governors in jail- four of the last seven or something like that! Two Democrats and two Republicans. Not bad for a state that practically has junk bond status... |
#27
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Bicycle Parts in the News
On 1/23/2020 3:45 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 09:07:44 -0800 (PST), Chalo wrote: Places where cops don't usually have guns exhibit much lower crime rates than places where they do. Of course, those places also have sane ideas about permitting real people to have guns in public, not just cops. In which direction are you positing cause and effect? Do cops carrying guns increase the crime rate, or are cops less likely to carry guns in places where the crime rate is lower? +1 for logic -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#28
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Bicycle Parts in the News
On 1/23/2020 3:57 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:57:04 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich wrote: 1. Imprison people and treat them psychologically while drying them out since most are alcoholics or drug users. These inevitably are treatable conditions. Now you have someone that doesn't want to use drugs or alcohol and doesn't want to commit crimes. While you oversimplify a bit, it is true that a large percentage of convicts in the have psychological and/or substance abuse problems. Treating those does result in lower recidivism rates. 2. TEACH THEM A TRADE. Since the largest cause of crime and drug use is the feeling of total helplessness and anger because of that, you have to teach them how to take care of themselves. A good idea. I remember reading about one well-known convict who learned jewelry making in prison and did make a substantial part of his living that way for the rest of his days rather than returning to the drug manufacturing that put him in prison. Granted that is anecdote rather than data. But even a bit broader than trade is reintegrating parolees into society. Work and economic self-support is hugely important, but many perhaps most employers simply will not hire people who have been incarcerated. So even if they have a trade they've learned, they can't get a job. In some states parolled felons can't vote, another bar to being an accepted member of society. Another piece is creating civility in jails, which are often savage places rife with internal crime, gang activity, ready access to drugs, rape and intimidation, etc. Dehumanizing people and training them to be better criminals probably doesn't help. This actually works and small programs that used this method had less than a tenth of a percent recidivism. The problem was that they could only teach people computer skills and most people don't really have an aptitude for that. So other work training programs would have to be used. Oh yeah. There is a diversity of aptitudes in prisons just like anywhere else, and one size doesn't fit all. I'm with you generally but voting rights and 'being an accepted member of society' are unrelated. Hell, literally half the people you know are qualified to vote but do not. And you don't know who is who. _That_ ought to be unacceptable in polite society[1]. [1] Which should not be construed as support of mandatory voting, a pernicious thing I do not advocate. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#29
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Bicycle Parts in the News
On 1/23/2020 4:20 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:43:36 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich wrote: On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 9:59:55 PM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote: On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 21:12:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich wrote: Today in the Senate we heard Adam Schiff do what he does best - lie. He did everything from straight out lying to misrepresentation of things that others said by taking them completely out of context. This was the Democrat Party in its finest hour. I expect you could find a case of a Republican doing that but it is unusual. Still suffering from that irony deficiency, I see. That is why the Democrats have been playing them like harps for the last dozen years - the Republicans continue to bend over backwards in the attempt to be reasonable and fair when the Democrats are using it to be unreasonable and unfair. May God save the souls of the Democrats because I will not. I thank God that he presented President Trump at the correct time. Oh my. Your sense of reality is so twisted and warped that it's really quite astonishing. well, with my twisted sense of reality why don't you tell me how long Democrats have been in power in Chicago? LOL! Ah, good old Richard J. Daley. He was so popular that people voted for him three or four times in every election, and even dead people voted for him. I was in high school when he died and when I left to go to college stopped paying any attention to Chicago politics. I don't even know if there's been a Republican mayor there in the past 45 years. If I recall correctly, Daley was succeeded by Harold Washington- who was black- and whites fled to the suburbs in droves. Who was next- Michael Bilandic or something like that? Wasn't he the guy who got voted out because of utter incompetence in managing snowplowing after a major storm (I recall the city not being able to afford fuel or something like that). Traditionally the mayor of Chicago has way more political clout than the governor of Illinois. Speaking of which, Illinois has a spectacular record of putting former governors in jail- four of the last seven or something like that! Two Democrats and two Republicans. Not bad for a state that practically has junk bond status... Oh dear you left out the singular Mayor Jane Byrne. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#30
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Bicycle Parts in the News
On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:20:10 -0600, Tim McNamara
wrote: On Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:43:36 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich wrote: On Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 9:59:55 PM UTC-8, Tim McNamara wrote: On Wed, 22 Jan 2020 21:12:21 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich wrote: Today in the Senate we heard Adam Schiff do what he does best - lie. He did everything from straight out lying to misrepresentation of things that others said by taking them completely out of context. This was the Democrat Party in its finest hour. I expect you could find a case of a Republican doing that but it is unusual. Still suffering from that irony deficiency, I see. That is why the Democrats have been playing them like harps for the last dozen years - the Republicans continue to bend over backwards in the attempt to be reasonable and fair when the Democrats are using it to be unreasonable and unfair. May God save the souls of the Democrats because I will not. I thank God that he presented President Trump at the correct time. Oh my. Your sense of reality is so twisted and warped that it's really quite astonishing. well, with my twisted sense of reality why don't you tell me how long Democrats have been in power in Chicago? LOL! Ah, good old Richard J. Daley. He was so popular that people voted for him three or four times in every election, and even dead people voted for him. I was in high school when he died and when I left to go to college stopped paying any attention to Chicago politics. I don't even know if there's been a Republican mayor there in the past 45 years. If I recall correctly, Daley was succeeded by Harold Washington- who was black- and whites fled to the suburbs in droves. Who was next- Michael Bilandic or something like that? Wasn't he the guy who got voted out because of utter incompetence in managing snowplowing after a major storm (I recall the city not being able to afford fuel or something like that). Traditionally the mayor of Chicago has way more political clout than the governor of Illinois. Speaking of which, Illinois has a spectacular record of putting former governors in jail- four of the last seven or something like that! Two Democrats and two Republicans. Not bad for a state that practically has junk bond status... "Mayor" Curley, of Boston, won an election while incarcerated for a fraud conviction and serving a term in prison. In a later case he was elected mayor while under federal indictment for mail fraud, winning with 45% of the vote. He was convicted and served 5 months in prison and when release was met by "a crowd of thousands greeted Curley upon his return to Boston, with a brass band playing "Hail to the Chief". -- cheers, John B. |
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