Groupsets

On 6/4/2020 2:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 3:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/4/2020 11:43 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 10:48 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 7:12:54 PM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:

Adjusting pads is sort of a side issue, since I was
talking only about
force on the controls. Although to me, not needing to
adjust hydraulic
disc pads is kind of balanced by needing to prissily
clean things with
cotton swabs when replacing pads.

I don't clean my disc calipers with cotton swabs. I just
drop in a set of pads.

Admittedly, I haven't done it because I don't use those
brakes. But these guys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQXFFgRButo seem to say
it's important to get the Q-tips out. See about 2:20 and
about 3:20 onward.

Is that only for super grungy brakes?


No Q-tips on shop time. We use auto disc brake cleaner
(which is dirt cheap) in refillable sprayers with a clean
wiper, compressed air to finish.

That makes more sense to me. And really, a home mechanic
wouldn't need the compressed air; just wait for the stuff to
evaporate.

I wonder why the Park Took guys took the Q-tip route?



Once any oils are in suspension, compressed air removes the
contaminated solvent from the surface. Air dry leaves the
oils behind, which was the problem.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/4/2020 2:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 3:02 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/4/2020 11:43 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 10:48 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 7:12:54 PM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:

Adjusting pads is sort of a side issue, since I was
talking only about
force on the controls. Although to me, not needing to
adjust hydraulic
disc pads is kind of balanced by needing to prissily
clean things with
cotton swabs when replacing pads.

I don't clean my disc calipers with cotton swabs. I just
drop in a set of pads.

Admittedly, I haven't done it because I don't use those
brakes. But these guys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQXFFgRButo seem to say
it's important to get the Q-tips out. See about 2:20 and
about 3:20 onward.

Is that only for super grungy brakes?


No Q-tips on shop time. We use auto disc brake cleaner
(which is dirt cheap) in refillable sprayers with a clean
wiper, compressed air to finish.

That makes more sense to me. And really, a home mechanic
wouldn't need the compressed air; just wait for the stuff to
evaporate.

I wonder why the Park Took guys took the Q-tip route?


re Q-tips: Maybe to clean the slots? We commonly wash with
(literally, don't laugh) toothbrushes. Very handy around
derailleurs, brakes, disc slots and so on. We also go
through a lot of brake wash, which is dirt cheap as compared
to labor. And moreso for time with Q-tips!

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 4 Jun 2020 09:52:31 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 6:34:48 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 10:31 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 12:30:27 AM UTC-7, Dennis Davis wrote:


Perhaps (6) is better replaced by:

(6) Requires levels of skill not present in modern cyclists.

Really? So one should buy DT shifters to develop a useless skill? At least that should translate into some performance advantage, which it doesn't.

Perhaps the "useless skill" is the ability to ride with (gasp!) only one
hand on the bars?


No you stubborn dinosaur. There are situations (traffic, road conditions or riding in a pack) even you don't want to take one hand of the handlebar and in that case you can't shift with down tube shifters period. That is the deal.

Lou

Here now. I thought that you highly skilled cyclists went swooping
back and forth on the road with no hands at all on the bars? At least
I see small kids doing that, or is it a skill set limited to pre-teens
:-?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P7UpvcqDUE
https://www.instructables.com/id/How...with-No-Hands/
--
cheers,

John B.

On 6/4/2020 5:29 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 12:30:27 AM UTC-7, Dennis Davis wrote:
In article ,
jbeattie wrote:

...

I think that the curmudgeon handbook, chapter six, has a lengthy
discussion of the benefits of DT friction shifters. IIRC,
they a (1) slow and imprecise shifting, (2) missed shifts,
(3) conspicuous contrarianism, (4) longevity like an incurable
skin condition, (5) inconvenient location, and (6) conspicuous
contrarianism. Clearly superior to any STI/Ergo like system.

A double dose of "conspicuous contrarianism" ("3" and "6"). Isn't
that overkill?

Perhaps (6) is better replaced by:

(6) Requires levels of skill not present in modern cyclists.


...I'm planning to put some Simplex Retrofriction downtube levers on
my next bike...
--
Dennis Davis

I think more accurate would be "requires total lack of skills that modern cyclists have." Anyone that rides downtube shifters or centerpull brakes in this day and age is either penniless or stupid or both.


harumph.
I have a Zeus Alfa centerpull on the front of my three speed
to replace the Universal 61 destroyed when a rental truck
ran me down. It's been no trouble at all since installed,
1998 or so.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 6/4/2020 5:45 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 9:58:31 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 9:33:14 PM UTC+2, wrote:
The main groupsets are Campagnolo, Shimano and SRAM.

They all now have electronic groupsets.

Shimano, the originator of the Di2 which forced the others into the business uses a wired system like the Campagnolo EPS.

Shimano is a highly technical design that settled upon a method of powering and communicating with each component over the same two-conductor wire. Originally it used multiple wires and I can just picture an electronics engineer looking at that and asking Shimano management, "Why?" In any case since each part communicates with the others, you absolutely must have interchangeable components. These can be anything from 105 to Dura Ace but everything down to the battery itself much be a component interchangeable with the particular group. Why they would have different groups that are not interchangeable I couldn't say. You can get the 9000 series Di2 or the 9780 (which I have). Of course this might be nothing more than mistaken documentation on the Internet which is famous for that.

Campagnolo EPS is also a wired group and I know very little about it except that it is a 12 speed group and cost slightly less than a Tesla S model with full extras. As I've said before, my opinion of Italian engineering is that they are more artists than engineers and I wouldn't be surprised to discover that they need to go through many iterations to get it to work reliably. Though it would look pretty.

SRAM groupsets are real trash from my point of view. Their cranks for instance, have different size bearings on each side of the bike and the steel of the cranks is relatively soft so that they wear away rapidly leaving the cranks to rattle loosely in the bearings. Their electronic shifting idea became rather strange as well. Whereas Shimano has a single battery that lasts probably too long leaving you to eventually run out of juice a month after the last recharge after you've forgotten you even need to recharge, the SRAM is wireless and everything has its own battery to die on its own. They also have the odd idea that the right level shifts to a lower gear and the left to a larger gear. This means that there must be extra intelligence somewhere in this rig to calculate which is a larger gear - the upper chainring and the larger cog or the smaller ring and the smaller cog. Good luck if the battery for that component gives up the ghost. And some of these components uses a coin ce
ll. Hope you're battery rich. Judging from my TV remote which has a three AAA cells and only lasts a month or six weeks, coin cells that go flat shifting you into a granny gear to limp 20 miles home doesn't seem all that brilliant to me.

The Chinese presently have a manual high end groupset from a couple of companies but the tests on them aren't very pleasant and it is likely that the means they are using to get around SRAM and Shimano patents in the USA make for not very well working setups.

Sooner of later I suspect that Shimano will replace the Di2 and Manual groups with hydraulic which will solve most of their problems since people are now seeing just how simple it is to bleed hydraulic systems. Changing the derailleurs to hydraulic would make the changes so soft that it would make Di2 seem like a real effort. Also you could build in chain rub compensation so that it relieves a little pressure if it detects the chain rubbing. Of course this implies that it always has to be setup so that rub is from the high pressure side.

The end result would be a shifting/braking system that has extremely light touch without ever having to recharge a battery. What do you gain by electronic shifting other than automatic compensation for front chain-line?

It would also allow a piston design for the derailleurs that was made out of plastic so it would be lighter and last forever. Maybe that is why they are holding back.

Shimano will never replace Di2 with hydraulics.

Lou

They may be forced to. If someone institutes hydraulics Shimano might have to follow suit. The simplicity of a hydraulic setup would then take over all of its own advantages.


I'm with Lou.

Oh, and if someone else develops it first, absolutely not.
It's their company bias and ethos, "We didn't invent that"

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 7:12:54 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2020 8:02 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2020 3:33 PM, wrote:

The end result would be a shifting/braking system that has extremely
light touch without ever having to recharge a battery. What do you gain
by electronic shifting other than automatic compensation for front chain-line?

I'm puzzled by the high value some people place on a "light touch,"
whether braking or shifting. ISTM light acting controls are a benefit
only up to a point.

Brakes that can lock a wheel with a few ounces of lever force make no
sense to me.

Try MTB or Gravel descents, older MTB on steeper stuff the burn on the
forearms is real, and the older (tech) CX bike which had canti reminded me
of this few years back, present Gravel bike has cable disks which are okay
but not stellar, my MTB has hydro as does my old commuting beast which are
far better in high load sort of stuff. And let’s not forget the not needing
to adjust pads etc.

Adjusting pads is sort of a side issue, since I was talking only about
force on the controls. Although to me, not needing to adjust hydraulic
disc pads is kind of balanced by needing to prissily clean things with
cotton swabs when replacing pads.

I don't clean my disc calipers with cotton swabs. I just drop in a set
of pads. Screw in the screw and replace the tiny little snap clip
retainer. It takes less time than changing rim brake pads. Your proper
complaint is price and longevity -- which can be recouped with savings on
rims if you ride in the rain or dirty conditions, one hopes.

Also, adjusting caliper rim brake pads is a two second operation, and I
don't see that as any reason for switching to hydro discs -- although it
is a reason for going with hydro discs rather than cable discs. It's easy
to forget to adjust cable disc pads, and you can end up with some braking surprises, IMO.

I understand the benefits of less lever force for long, steel mountain
bike downhills. Not that I ride those any more.

But even for road riding, there's been a long trend to less and less
lever force, long ago leading to in-line force-reducing spring gizmos so
people riding comfort bikes on MUPs didn't lock up the front wheel and
take headers. And I've seen a novice flip a bike because it had dual
pivot brakes, when she was used to single pivot.

BTW, our neighborhood paramedic just took delivery of a new gravel bike.
She asked me to solve a little problem with it, so I got a brief test
ride. It was interesting to me that her cable discs did not have
super-low lever force like some other discs I've tried. In fact, I
thought her back brake felt rather weak, which surprised me. (I don't
know the brake model; I'll have to check.)

Some cable discs are dreadful because of long, fully encased cable runs
with hard turns that produce a lot of drag. You have to do some fussing
to overcome it. My warranty replacement commuter frame had that problem
when I threw on my old BB7 rear brake (which had notoriously weak return
springs), so I switched to hydro. Works great now.


-- Jay Beattie.


My Gravel bike took a while for the rotors to bed in, it’s nowhere near the
hydraulics on the other two, but it’s not a million miles away, vastly
improved over the CX canti which where truly terrifying!

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2020 8:02 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2020 3:33 PM, wrote:

The end result would be a shifting/braking system that has extremely
light touch without ever having to recharge a battery. What do you gain
by electronic shifting other than automatic compensation for front chain-line?

I'm puzzled by the high value some people place on a "light touch,"
whether braking or shifting. ISTM light acting controls are a benefit
only up to a point.

Brakes that can lock a wheel with a few ounces of lever force make no
sense to me.

Try MTB or Gravel descents, older MTB on steeper stuff the burn on the
forearms is real, and the older (tech) CX bike which had canti reminded me
of this few years back, present Gravel bike has cable disks which are okay
but not stellar, my MTB has hydro as does my old commuting beast which are
far better in high load sort of stuff. And let’s not forget the not needing
to adjust pads etc.

Adjusting pads is sort of a side issue, since I was talking only about
force on the controls. Although to me, not needing to adjust hydraulic
disc pads is kind of balanced by needing to prissily clean things with
cotton swabs when replacing pads.

That’s unneeded, push old ones out, put new ones in, fit wheel, squeeze
brake and it’s done, equally with replacement fluid will last a few years,
generally you can feel as it starts to go.

On the whole with hydraulic, people get into trouble by fiddling, hose off
dead sheep, replace pads as when.

I understand the benefits of less lever force for long, steel mountain
bike downhills. Not that I ride those any more.

But even for road riding, there's been a long trend to less and less
lever force, long ago leading to in-line force-reducing spring gizmos so
people riding comfort bikes on MUPs didn't lock up the front wheel and
take headers. And I've seen a novice flip a bike because it had dual
pivot brakes, when she was used to single pivot.

BTW, our neighborhood paramedic just took delivery of a new gravel bike.
She asked me to solve a little problem with it, so I got a brief test
ride. It was interesting to me that her cable discs did not have
super-low lever force like some other discs I've tried. In fact, I
thought her back brake felt rather weak, which surprised me. (I don't
know the brake model; I'll have to check.)

As per other answer probably not bedded in, though cable disks are broadly
in line with dual pivots in terms of bite though they don’t loose it when
wet as much.

In short they are a compromise cable disks.

Roger Merriman

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 3:38:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 7:48:36 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 7:12:54 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2020 8:02 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/3/2020 3:33 PM, wrote:

The end result would be a shifting/braking system that has extremely
light touch without ever having to recharge a battery. What do you gain
by electronic shifting other than automatic compensation for front chain-line?

I'm puzzled by the high value some people place on a "light touch,"
whether braking or shifting. ISTM light acting controls are a benefit
only up to a point.

Brakes that can lock a wheel with a few ounces of lever force make no
sense to me.

Try MTB or Gravel descents, older MTB on steeper stuff the burn on the
forearms is real, and the older (tech) CX bike which had canti reminded me
of this few years back, present Gravel bike has cable disks which are okay
but not stellar, my MTB has hydro as does my old commuting beast which are
far better in high load sort of stuff. And let’s not forget the not needing
to adjust pads etc.

Adjusting pads is sort of a side issue, since I was talking only about
force on the controls. Although to me, not needing to adjust hydraulic
disc pads is kind of balanced by needing to prissily clean things with
cotton swabs when replacing pads.

I don't clean my disc calipers with cotton swabs. I just drop in a set of pads. Screw in the screw and replace the tiny little snap clip retainer. It takes less time than changing rim brake pads. Your proper complaint is price and longevity -- which can be recouped with savings on rims if you ride in the rain or dirty conditions, one hopes.

Also, adjusting caliper rim brake pads is a two second operation, and I don't see that as any reason for switching to hydro discs -- although it is a reason for going with hydro discs rather than cable discs. It's easy to forget to adjust cable disc pads, and you can end up with some braking surprises, IMO.

I understand the benefits of less lever force for long, steel mountain
bike downhills. Not that I ride those any more.

But even for road riding, there's been a long trend to less and less
lever force, long ago leading to in-line force-reducing spring gizmos so
people riding comfort bikes on MUPs didn't lock up the front wheel and
take headers. And I've seen a novice flip a bike because it had dual
pivot brakes, when she was used to single pivot.

BTW, our neighborhood paramedic just took delivery of a new gravel bike.
She asked me to solve a little problem with it, so I got a brief test
ride. It was interesting to me that her cable discs did not have
super-low lever force like some other discs I've tried. In fact, I
thought her back brake felt rather weak, which surprised me. (I don't
know the brake model; I'll have to check.)

Some cable discs are dreadful because of long, fully encased cable runs with hard turns that produce a lot of drag. You have to do some fussing to overcome it. My warranty replacement commuter frame had that problem when I threw on my old BB7 rear brake (which had notoriously weak return springs), so I switched to hydro. Works great now.

-- Jay Beattie.

It appears that your expensive America carbon rims are significantly lighter than my cheap Chinese ones. The rim brakes really sucked until I got Campy pads and then they are almost normal. But I don't know what that will do to the lifespan of the brake area of the rim. It is nice that you can always brake at your limit with disk brakes but these cheap Chinese deep aluminum rims weight slightly less than the carbon models and they brake perfectly. The problem is that they are so difficult to find.

I don't have expensive American carbon rims. I do have some Shimano C35s with aluminum brake tracks, and the front track is really scarred. That is going to be an expensive rim replacement.

My son had all carbon rims and hated them on the long Utah descents. He switched to aluminum rims and will ultimately get a disc on his next road race bike -- if one come along at the scrach and dent sale. Otherwise, even employee pricing on a new S-Works Tarmac is not cheap, and he'll be sticking with his old non-disc Tarmac.

More news from Specialized, it's ****-canning tubeless on its new Roval wheels. https://cyclingtips.com/2020/06/rova...st-clx-wheels/

The sense I get is that it is more trouble than it is worth in the road-rider consumer market.

-- Jay Beattie.

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 12:57 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 6:43:57 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 10:48 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 7:12:54 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Adjusting pads is sort of a side issue, since I was talking only about
force on the controls. Although to me, not needing to adjust hydraulic
disc pads is kind of balanced by needing to prissily clean things with
cotton swabs when replacing pads.

I don't clean my disc calipers with cotton swabs. I just drop in a set of pads.

Admittedly, I haven't done it because I don't use those brakes. But
these guys https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQXFFgRButo seem to say it's
important to get the Q-tips out. See about 2:20 and about 3:20 onward.

Is that only for super grungy brakes?

--
- Frank Krygowski

You never pry the metal parts out of the brake pads because they are
grinding away the rims? That is more time consuming than running a swap
along the pistons when changing the brake pads, which is also quicker
than changing the brake pads of rim brakes.

I've done that picking exercise on rim brake shoes, but not very often,
and not for years now. As I recall, it was necessary only rarely, and
after a rain ride. These days I can usually avoid riding in the rain. In
any case, it never took more than a minute or so.

I don't doubt that changing disc pads is faster than changing caliper
brake shoes. OTOH, from what I hear, disc pads need changed more
frequently. I'd bet the overall time difference (i.e. total time spent
per year) is minimal.

Disks at least Hydraulic are to be honest much less, they self adjust pad
wear, pads are easy to change, for commuting the fact that they have no
cable to get gummed up, you do need to replace the oil, but it’s easy to
feel when that is, the brakes start to have a wooden feel, every few years
or so.

They really are very easy to live with, they dislike oil so don’t spray any
thing remotely near them, don’t fiddle they generally dislike cleaning
products ie disk cleaning sprays and like. Hose off the dirt and leave be,
and they are happy!

I'll repeat what I was told by one bicycle tourist that we hosted: Never
do a really long ride without packing a spare set of pads. His pads wore
to nothing and he found himself effectively without brakes until he
could locate a bike shop in hilly, remote northern Pennsylvania.


Unless your down hill MTB in mid winter, pads even on wet gritty roads will
last a long time, mine normally last 1500 ish miles on the commute bike and
gravel which I ride on similar surfaces.

In short pads are not exactly heavy or big, or hard to fit if your touring
it would seem like a sensible thing to pack, it does remind me of stories
of early road disks, folks deliberately or simply ham fisted, dragging the
brakes down long descents at which point you get brake fade.

Personally since I like MTB/Gravel disks last longer, rim brake pads on
pratically wet gritty rides I could wear though in only 2/3 rides.

Roger Merriman

wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 9:58:31 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, June 3, 2020 at 9:33:14 PM UTC+2, wrote:
The main groupsets are Campagnolo, Shimano and SRAM.

They all now have electronic groupsets.

Shimano, the originator of the Di2 which forced the others into the
business uses a wired system like the Campagnolo EPS.

Shimano is a highly technical design that settled upon a method of
powering and communicating with each component over the same
two-conductor wire. Originally it used multiple wires and I can just
picture an electronics engineer looking at that and asking Shimano
management, "Why?" In any case since each part communicates with the
others, you absolutely must have interchangeable components. These can
be anything from 105 to Dura Ace but everything down to the battery
itself much be a component interchangeable with the particular group.
Why they would have different groups that are not interchangeable I
couldn't say. You can get the 9000 series Di2 or the 9780 (which I
have). Of course this might be nothing more than mistaken documentation
on the Internet which is famous for that.

Campagnolo EPS is also a wired group and I know very little about it
except that it is a 12 speed group and cost slightly less than a Tesla
S model with full extras. As I've said before, my opinion of Italian
engineering is that they are more artists than engineers and I wouldn't
be surprised to discover that they need to go through many iterations
to get it to work reliably. Though it would look pretty.

SRAM groupsets are real trash from my point of view. Their cranks for
instance, have different size bearings on each side of the bike and the
steel of the cranks is relatively soft so that they wear away rapidly
leaving the cranks to rattle loosely in the bearings. Their electronic
shifting idea became rather strange as well. Whereas Shimano has a
single battery that lasts probably too long leaving you to eventually
run out of juice a month after the last recharge after you've forgotten
you even need to recharge, the SRAM is wireless and everything has its
own battery to die on its own. They also have the odd idea that the
right level shifts to a lower gear and the left to a larger gear. This
means that there must be extra intelligence somewhere in this rig to
calculate which is a larger gear - the upper chainring and the larger
cog or the smaller ring and the smaller cog. Good luck if the battery
for that component gives up the ghost. And some of these components
uses a coin cell. Hope you're battery rich. Judging from my TV remote
which has a three AAA cells and only lasts a month or six weeks, coin
cells that go flat shifting you into a granny gear to limp 20 miles
home doesn't seem all that brilliant to me.

The Chinese presently have a manual high end groupset from a couple of
companies but the tests on them aren't very pleasant and it is likely
that the means they are using to get around SRAM and Shimano patents in
the USA make for not very well working setups.

Sooner of later I suspect that Shimano will replace the Di2 and Manual
groups with hydraulic which will solve most of their problems since
people are now seeing just how simple it is to bleed hydraulic systems.
Changing the derailleurs to hydraulic would make the changes so soft
that it would make Di2 seem like a real effort. Also you could build in
chain rub compensation so that it relieves a little pressure if it
detects the chain rubbing. Of course this implies that it always has to
be setup so that rub is from the high pressure side.

The end result would be a shifting/braking system that has extremely
light touch without ever having to recharge a battery. What do you gain
by electronic shifting other than automatic compensation for front chain-line?

It would also allow a piston design for the derailleurs that was made
out of plastic so it would be lighter and last forever. Maybe that is
why they are holding back.

Shimano will never replace Di2 with hydraulics.

Lou

They may be forced to. If someone institutes hydraulics Shimano might
have to follow suit. The simplicity of a hydraulic setup would then take
over all of its own advantages.

Rotor? Have a fully hydraulic set up I believe 13 speed?

But it appears to be work in progress ie a bit clunky!

Roger Merriman