How many Miles a day is reasonable..

wrote:
:: Good info so far.. and to answer some of your questions:
::
:: They will be traveling with no luggage, just a little food for the
:: day, and obviously water, support van carrys rest.
::
:: Bikes, they should have pretty good ones.. we will borrow if we need
:: to in order to get suitable bikes. Not high end racers.. but decent
:: ones.

Do you ride yourself? I think given that you haven't done this before, it
is best to think smallish, maybe like 30 miles per day. That's a decent
number and the kids will have fun.

Do you have the experience & resources needed to service that many bikes
should there be issues along the way?

Ill fitting borrowed bike might cause problems for kids once the miles rack
up. Yeah, 10 miles ain't a big deal, but 50 every day for 10 days might be.

::
::
:: I am thinking on the road 6:30am and do pretty much the whole day,
:: not formal scheduled stops..

I think that's hard for kids who haven't trained to ride all day every day
for a total of 500 miles in hot and muggy weather. i'd have to think about
doing that! and what is the terrain like? It makes a difference. And what
is the route - lightly travelled by car & trucks?

.. they can rest when needed on their own
:: throughout the day.. but pretty much just keep it in gear until they
:: reach the night location. Adult chaparones will take care of camp
:: cleanup, packup in the morning.. .then setup & dinner on the next
:: camp... in order to give them the most number of hours on the bikes.

How many adult riders will you have? I assume your kids have been trained on
road riding, too.

::
:: If it all works they could get up.. grab breakfast and jump on their
:: bikes... then roll into camp at night.. camp set & dinner ready..
:: they can goof off a while.. maybe swim.. or hit their sleeping bag
:: right away.. whatever they want.)

I personally wouldn't think of that as much fun. Saddle sores would prevent
any real fun at the end of the day. Who gonna be dealing with that issue?
You?

::
:: I was wondering if I could get 100 or 125 miles a day out of them?
:: Adult chaparones will likely be limited somewhat in the amount of
:: time they can take off work.. so I would like to get there.. enjoy a
:: day in NY.. then drive them home all in 6 days time.
::
:: Am I dreaming.. or is it possible?

I think you're dreaming, personally, even though I have no first-hand
experience. you really need to find someone with first-hand experience and
ask a lot of detailed questions. Are there any bicycling camps for kids
that do this kind of thing, for example.

BTW, this is an excellent idea. I think you might be overreaching a bit,
personally. Good luck.

wrote:
Good info so far.. and to answer some of your questions:

They will be traveling with no luggage, just a little food for the day,
and obviously water, support van carrys rest.

Bikes, they should have pretty good ones.. we will borrow if we need to
in order to get suitable bikes. Not high end racers.. but decent ones.


I am thinking on the road 6:30am and do pretty much the whole day, not
formal scheduled stops... they can rest when needed on their own
throughout the day.. but pretty much just keep it in gear until they
reach the night location. Adult chaparones will take care of camp
cleanup, packup in the morning.. .then setup & dinner on the next
camp... in order to give them the most number of hours on the bikes.

If it all works they could get up.. grab breakfast and jump on their
bikes... then roll into camp at night.. camp set & dinner ready.. they
can goof off a while.. maybe swim.. or hit their sleeping bag right
away.. whatever they want.)

I was wondering if I could get 100 or 125 miles a day out of them?
Adult chaparones will likely be limited somewhat in the amount of time
they can take off work.. so I would like to get there.. enjoy a day in
NY.. then drive them home all in 6 days time.

Am I dreaming.. or is it possible?

No, that's ridiculous on a lot of levels. Do you, or anyone else
involved in planing this little expedition, have any bike touring
experience whatsoever? You are thinking to just throw these relatively
unprepared kids out on the road, unsupervised, on borrowed equipment, at
6:30 am, armed with a couple of bottles of water and some granola bars,
and meet them at camp 125 miles down the road? For four days straight?

jj wrote:

Even a full supported ride for adults on
perfectly flat ground rarely goes over 50 miles a day for 6 days.

The Tour du Canada is 7750 km in 72 days. That works out to about 66
miles per day. And parts of that are very non-flat.

I personally average about 75 miles a day on shorter tours (85 per day
on the bike), and that's fully loaded. Mind you, I'm not shepherding a
bunch of kids on bikes, and I tend to keep my options of where to stay
for the night open for as long as possible. With a group of any size,
you have to know where you're going to stop for the day.

Do i have a degree in Biking? No. However I would think the fact
that I am begining the planning process 9 months ahead of time.. and
seeking the advice from a place where experienced bikers hang out..
(although I am learning that it appears some experienced bikers are not
interested in educating newcomers... they would prefer to berate them
and act like condescending jerks) may indicate that I intend to do this
safely.. properly and with some degree of forethought.

you got a chip on your shoulder, bub.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article .com,
wrote:
Good info so far.. and to answer some of your questions:

They will be traveling with no luggage, just a little food for the day,
and obviously water, support van carrys rest.

Bikes, they should have pretty good ones.. we will borrow if we need to
in order to get suitable bikes. Not high end racers.. but decent ones.


I am thinking on the road 6:30am and do pretty much the whole day, not
formal scheduled stops... they can rest when needed on their own
throughout the day.. but pretty much just keep it in gear until they
reach the night location. Adult chaparones will take care of camp
cleanup, packup in the morning.. .then setup & dinner on the next
camp... in order to give them the most number of hours on the bikes.

If it all works they could get up.. grab breakfast and jump on their
bikes... then roll into camp at night.. camp set & dinner ready.. they
can goof off a while.. maybe swim.. or hit their sleeping bag right
away.. whatever they want.)

I was wondering if I could get 100 or 125 miles a day out of them?
Adult chaparones will likely be limited somewhat in the amount of time
they can take off work.. so I would like to get there.. enjoy a day in
NY.. then drive them home all in 6 days time.

Am I dreaming.. or is it possible?


_ You're nuts. That's a lot of miles for a fit adult going solo.
It's one thing to do a century on a weekend, putting five of them
in a row is quite another. If you're not used to that amount
time in the saddle, you'll have a group of very sulky,
very sore and very much turned off from bike riding kids.

_ IMHO, you're going at this totally wrong, think about how much
time kids will spend in the saddle each day and figure out the
mileage from that. I think 5-6 hours is the most you'll be
sucessful with if they've been riding a lot and from that you can
get days in the 40-60 mile range. You're still going to have a
lot of problems with saddle soreness and bad bike fit, but not to
the point of crippling people. Throw in at least one short fun
day to give people a chance to recover. If they ride alone at
least one kid will get seriously lost every day, sometimes on
purpose....

_ Booker C. Bense

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQCVAwUBQ0LNG2TWTAjn5N/lAQFhOQQAqs056w7JYFiOJk2j0wMFzkcYC6SWXaBo
1r+bQTk3mf3k+Gk4avNusfoyaoKR122zcgCQf5aJCih3OuIqh2 NOco+4rhrFmK9p
aXz8SVJw5apC5lJmmRspGPS4ZwLAUAGldv69jdAl0WatS9QnrM GQE7F/e7HxSGFN
tq7lijPqev8=
=rT+a
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Hi Jack,

I appreciate your ambition and desire to research. It sounds like a
potentially wonderful experience for the boys.

I have done loaded and van-supported touring quite a bit in the last
few years. I also ride my bike nearly 200 miles every week - 150 in the
winter. When I first started touring, I was riding 100 miles per week
regularly. I could ride 100 miles in a day. However, I found that the
most my body, even as a trained adult cyclist, could take was about
40-60 miles per day, depending on terrain. This year I did a tour in
the Pyrenees with 50 mile days back to back and an 80 mile day thrown
in the middle. This was only possible with a really disciplined
training program so I could build up enough speed to average 12-13 mph
in the mountainous terrain. Even for reasonably athletic folks, it
takes some time to aclimate to being in the saddle for many hours.
Also, as you ride day after day, the gradual effects of dehydration and
sub-standard nutrition start to set in. These boys will probably need
at least 3,000 quality calories a day to do 50 miles and about a gallon
of water each. They will need an adult in the front of the pack and one
at the back to make sure they keep drinking and snacking, or they will
bonk. This will likely require stops every half hour or so, since they
may not have the bike handling skills to drink and eat while riding.
The van should meet them at lunch with more water and snacks. Then, the
van can go ahead and set up camp for the evening.

When I was 14, our youth group planned a 2 day cycling trip - 30 miles
each way to a water slide/camping park. There were only a few girls.
The rest were boys. All were athletic. Even so, it seemed like the
longest ride I had ever taken. Attention spans were short, and
endurance was low. By the end, some of the normally well-behaved kids
were getting unmanageable.

In my experience, you would be better to plan a shorter tour - say 200
miles. Or, get adults that can roatate in for 2-3 days each to minimize
vacation days and use the second week to complete the tour.

I highly recommend looking up Adventure Cycling Association for
resources and route planning. They have a really good set of maps that
cover a lot of the country.

Best,
Sarah

Leo Lichtman wrote:
:: This comment answers a different concern. Have as many cell phones
:: in the group as possible. They will probably end up forming
:: "cluster groups," of riders with similar tastes and riding ability.
:: Be sure each group has at least one phone. If you notice some
:: weaker riders who tend to fall back and ride alone, make sure not to
:: lose track of their whereabouts. Nothing could be worse than having
:: someone riding alone wander off course without a phone.

And some places don't have cell coverage. Bottom line: keep someone at the
back of the pack, and at the front, and account for all kids frequently.
Have check-ins at rest breaks.

wrote:
Am starting a plan a approx 500 mile (360 by google map.. extra built
in to try to stay on backroads when possible.. getting to campsites..
etc.) bike trip for a group of Boy Scouts next summer. Leaving
Detroit Michigan to Upstate New York (to Palmyra, through Canada) It
will be in July, HOT & Muggy!!!!.

What would be a decent working number to start with in regards to how
many miles a day they could cover.. for planning purposes.

We plan to camp.. they would get up in the morning.. have breakfast and
hit the road. They could lunch on the go (or McDonalds.. whatever)
A support group would pack up tents, etc, then pass them on the road
and set up the next night's camp, and have dinner ready when they come
in.

We will try to spend the months and weeks leading up to it getting them
to put in some miles on their bikes to get ready, they may or may not
follow the program.. .but working in their favor is they are 14 years
old.. and a reasonably athletic bunch.

Jack,

I am reasonably healthy, fast, adult male. I ride +/- 200 miles per
week, a fair amount of it hilly. If I travelled alone, 80-120
miles/day might be reasonable for daily touring. But groups have to
travel at the speed of the slowest/most tired/sickest/weakest, not the
fastest so you need to plan so that the slower members of your troop
are not left behind. I think you will do well to average 30-40
miles/day.

As for the 'training', it would be best if you could institutionalize
it. Back in my past I volunteered to work with a unique program run by
a couple of 6th grade teachers. They had a curriculum largely based on
the Grand Canyon - the geology, anthropology, biology, etc. The
culmination of this program was a backpack trip into the canyon in the
late spring (May). They started a physical conditioning program on the
first day of school to get the kids ready for this short adventure.
The children had 8 months to get ready and still it was a stretch for
many.

Another thing that should be done is to get the Scouts fit to their
bikes. If someone tries to ride a bike too tall, too long, too short,
etc., over distance they will be suffering. Perhaps a good thing to
work with one or more bike shops in your area on, bike fit and
adjustment.

The other thing I would do is some more exact route planning. Google
Maps is OK for a grand view, but there are lots of tools better for
detailed planning. With better planning tools you can get a better
idea of the mileage and even of the terrain so you can better plan out
the route. My wife probably thinks I am a bit A-C when it comes to
mapping tours, but by the time we get to an area I have a good idea of
which roads we might take, and the alternatives, which helps us to make
more informed decisions.

- rick

wrote:
Do i have a degree in Biking? No. However I would think the fact
that I am begining the planning process 9 months ahead of time.. and
seeking the advice from a place where experienced bikers hang out..
(although I am learning that it appears some experienced bikers are not
interested in educating newcomers... they would prefer to berate them
and act like condescending jerks) may indicate that I intend to do this
safely.. properly and with some degree of forethought.

you got a chip on your shoulder, bub.

No, but I do have kids, and it scares me to think that an uneducated
parent might entrust theirs to an uneducated leader planning a
physically challenging and potentially dangerous activity based on input
from the internet. You have basically proposed an activity that is in
the same realm of challenge as a marathon, with totally inadequate
support, for four days straight. So, I'm sorry if you think I'm being
condescending, but what you proposed was not just unrealistic, but
dangerous.

Not only that, but your first round of input read like "35 miles. 50
miles. Maybe 60 miles" and you come back with "so is 125 miles
unrealistic?" It makes me think you were not really listening to what
others were saying.

To do this safely you would need to: (a) plan on about 50 miles a day,
max, and ensure that the kids have done adequate training beforehand.
(b) have adults "along for the ride," including folks who know basic
bike repair and have basic tools/ repair equip. (c) make sure all the
kids have decent equipment, including decent bikes that are sized for
14-yo bodies, properly fitted, in excellent mechanical condition, proper
saddles, padded shorts, gloves, helmets, touring shoes; and (d) have
planned rest breaks, meal stops, and vast quantities of food and water
available during them.

wrote:
Am starting a plan a approx 500 mile (360 by google map.. extra built
in to try to stay on backroads when possible.. getting to campsites..
etc.) bike trip for a group of Boy Scouts next summer. Leaving
Detroit Michigan to Upstate New York (to Palmyra, through Canada) It
will be in July, HOT & Muggy!!!!.

What would be a decent working number to start with in regards to how
many miles a day they could cover.. for planning purposes.

I have no experience *leading* this type of tour, but in my youth I
participated in quite a bit of this kind of thing (school groups, and
AYH). I think for well conditioned, athletic kids of this age, a
realistic daily average is 30-40. Your first couple of days on the
road will be lower mileage (25-ish), and you can probably do perhaps a
50-60 miler once a week. Bear in mind that the group will not want to
spend the entire day every day on the bike, and you'll have to factor
in:

weather (you can ride through drizzles, but not thunderstorms)
getting lost
somebody crashing and wrecking bike and/or self (happened on every
youth tour I went on)
diversions (swimming, tubing, amusement parks, ice cream stands, etc.)
meeting other groups on the road and wanting to socialize
rest days


We plan to camp.. they would get up in the morning.. have breakfast and
hit the road. They could lunch on the go (or McDonalds.. whatever)
A support group would pack up tents, etc, then pass them on the road
and set up the next night's camp, and have dinner ready when they come
in.

How about hosteling? Check out

http://www.hiusa.org/programs/group-prog.shtml


We will try to spend the months and weeks leading up to it getting them
to put in some miles on their bikes to get ready, they may or may not
follow the program.. .but working in their favor is they are 14 years
old.. and a reasonably athletic bunch.

Down thread you mention 100 miles per day as a target. I think that's
completely unrealistic for kids this age (or any age) pursuing a
relatively casual training regime. That's a level that only very well
trained cyclists can maintain, and even then, it would be grueling.

John