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#82
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Chain Lube?
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 08:56:04 -0800 (PST), wrote:
On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 3:54:48 AM UTC-8, Duane wrote: sms wrote: On 11/18/2018 10:35 AM, wrote: snip John, the popping of the bubbles that compose the foam puts a pressure inside the foam where it contacts the rollers. I'm not one to have a great deal of faith in this but it does appear to be plenty of lube everywhere including your chainstay and everyone within a yard of the operation. The best I've used is Rock and Roll. This contains a Teflon lubricant in a solvent. You roll the chain and liberally spray the stuff on the chain/rear cassette for several revolutions of the chain. The solvent washes off the dirt and old lubricant. You then use a cloth to wipe as much of the chain dry as possible and then allow the chain to dry overnight. The Teflon penetrates between the rollers and the solvent evaporates overnight. So you have a clean chain that actually does have lubrication that you can actually feel and it is dry so the chain doesn't pick up dirt or leave muck on the chain rings and cogs. Of course this stuff is as expensive as gold and you have to use it fairly often to clean everything. I will give this a try. The foaming chain lubricant works wonderfully well as a lubricant but you have to clean the chain first. I think that I speak for many here in that we are Looking to minimize time spent on chain maintenance while still having a chain that is both cleaned and lubed. A little extra money is worth it. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000IQCMD4 From the question/answer section: Question: Does the RnR Gold clean the chain? Or do I still need a degreaser? Answer: RnR Gold is not a cleaner, Clean your chain before you lube it and make sure to wipe off the excess so that it doesn't collect dust and dirt. -- duane "The “King of Lubes” has three chain lubes: The EXTREME, ABSOLUTE DRY, and GOLD. All three are formulated to clean and lube at the same time when applied. " My goodness! For once you got it right as the R&R add says specifically "Cleans and lubricates simultaneously". https://www.amazon.com/Rock-N-Roll-G.../dp/B07CRFYPBS Of course, you got to wipe the dirt off with your own hands as stated in http://www.rocklube.com/ cheers, John B. |
#83
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Chain Lube?
On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 19:09:35 -0600, AMuzi wrote:
chicken feed you can make yourself: https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6235/6...855a357c_b.jpg I remember Dad hauling a wagonload of ear corn to the elevator to be ground into chicken feed. They added some stuff to make a balanced diet, if I recall correctly. (It was hog feed, actually, but Mom fed it to her chickens. And the dog would help himself to some when I carried the bucket to the henhouse.) Pity I never thought of seeing what sort of cornbread it would make. But Dad retired before I learned how to cook. Besides, the little ones were allowed to play in the wagonload of grain, and when the combine unloaded into the wagon, I saw the grasshopper fragments coming down. Probably far fewer in ear corn than in wheat, though. -- Joy Beeson joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/ |
#84
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Chain Lube?
On 11/19/2018 6:50 PM, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 08:52:17 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 4:57:31 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 16:18:41 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 4:02:50 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:35:49 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 3:40:25 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:25:25 -0800, sms wrote: On 11/15/2018 1:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure injection)? Yes. That's how commercial chain lubricants are formulated. The solvent carrier carries the lubricant onto the pins and rollers. "PJ1 Black Label is designed for standard non-”O”ring chains. PJ1 Black Label has a foaming action that penetrates pins and rollers as well as lubricating the rollers, sprocket and side plates. After penetrating the inside of the chain, PJ1 Black Label chain lube becomes a sticky lubricant that bounces back or has a “memory” effect that withstands the continual mechanical stress of the chain." For a very thick solid lubricant like wax, it has to be thinned by heating to penetrate. It now appears that people that use wax also add oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every 3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing." I remember you mentioning this "foaming action" several times before, but I am wondering exactly how this "foaming action" forces oil through the narrow passageway between the side plates. After all we are talking about a passageway that is very narrow with ambient pressure on one side and The Lord only knows what pressure on the other. What contains the tiny little bubbles in the foam that allows them to apply sufficient pressure to force themselves down into the dark and dismal depths of the chain? After all when a glass of beer is served with a head of foam the foam doesn't seem to exert sufficient pressure to force itself down into the beer, quite the opposite in fact, the foam seems to rise to the top. I might also comment that, in the gas and oil industry, producers spend considerable time and effort to de-gas, i.e. remove the foam, from oil before forcing it down a pipeline. As an aside, can you provide any reference from a reliable source that describes using a wax as a chain lube as being "recreational chain waxing"? After all Frank provided a reference from a source that seems to be the "last word" in measuring friction losses in the bicycle world that stated that the lowest losses were from using a wax lubricated chain, that described in detain how the test was made. cheers, John B. John, the popping of the bubbles that compose the foam puts a pressure inside the foam where it contacts the rollers. I'm not one to have a great deal of faith in this but it does appear to be plenty of lube everywhere including your chainstay and everyone within a yard of the operation. I'm not sure that this explanation is valid in that a bubble contains pressure inside the bubble but can only apply pressure outside the bubble if it is contained in some manner. Think of a balloon. Blow it up and then it simply floats around bumping into things and doesn't penetrate a bit. Or, as in my original post, bubbles in a glass of beer... or for those in an upper financial bracket, bubbles in a glass of champagne. The best I've used is Rock and Roll. This contains a Teflon lubricant in a solvent. You roll the chain and liberally spray the stuff on the chain/rear cassette for several revolutions of the chain. The solvent washes off the dirt and old lubricant. You then use a cloth to wipe as much of the chain dry as possible and then allow the chain to dry overnight. The Teflon penetrates between the rollers and the solvent evaporates overnight. So you have a clean chain that actually does have lubrication that you can actually feel and it is dry so the chain doesn't pick up dirt or leave muck on the chain rings and cogs. Of course this stuff is as expensive as gold and you have to use it fairly often to clean everything. Amazon has R&R Gold for $6.66 for 4 oz. cheers, John B. John, you don't seem to have the engineering concept. A lubricant bubble doesn't "bounce" off of anything. If the chain is dry each bubble progressive pops and wets and area. The next bubble floats along this lubricated surface until it in turn reaches an unlubricated surface etc. The bubbles are similar to your balloon idea save they have a very weak surface tension which is disturbed by anything other than the lubricant itself. Fine, I can agree with that but the idea that bubbles, for some reason, aid in forcing the lubricant into cracks and crevices is, at least in the descriptions offered to date, seems to be a factor of advertising not reality. Only about one part in eight of Rock and Roll is Teflon (the actual lubricant). A four ounce bottle is good for at the most, two application of a clean chain or one of a dirty one. I'd say that makes it expensive, wouldn't you? Gee, I don't know. In a previous post I offered the suggestion that cyclists probably shouldn't talk about prices and quoted TREK's prices to their top road and mountain bikes - $12,000 and $9,000 if I remember. And certainly TREK wouldn't be making them if they couldn't sell them. $6.66 on a $12,000 bicycle sounds like chicken feed. cheers, John B. John, how much have you paid for chain lube over the last year? I bought the 16 ounce bottle of Rock and Roll two years ago. Over the last year? Nothing! You see, I've been using hot wax for about 4 years now and while, yes, I bought some blocks of wax 4 years ago, or about that, I haven't spent a penny since. I paid twice as much as I should for chain wax. See, I bought a box of canning paraffin wax many, many years ago - probably decades ago, really. I used about half of it to mix up the concoction I used at the time. (I forget whether that one had a bit of motor oil or a bit of gear lube, but it doesn't matter.) When I saw my supply was finally getting low, I bought another pound of canning wax. Gulfwax brand, $4.29 says the price tag still on the box. But I procrastinated making the new batch, then I forgot I bought that box. I bought another one. $4.29 down the drain! Finally, rummaging around elsewhere, I found the half pound from the purchase years ago. The cardboard box it came in is rotted, but the wax looks fine. So really, that's $8.58 down the drain in - what? - just ten years or so! If anyone wants a free pound of wax, just stop by. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#85
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Chain Lube?
On 11/19/2018 7:03 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
Besides, the little ones were allowed to play in the wagonload of grain, and when the combine unloaded into the wagon, I saw the grasshopper fragments coming down. Probably far fewer in ear corn than in wheat, though. Insects, mice etc. do get sucked into the harvest of various grains. Someone once claimed that if you take that into account, vegetarian diets probably kill more animals than carnivore diets. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#86
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Chain Lube?
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 23:34:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 11/19/2018 6:50 PM, John B. slocomb wrote: On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 08:52:17 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 4:57:31 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 16:18:41 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 4:02:50 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:35:49 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 3:40:25 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:25:25 -0800, sms wrote: On 11/15/2018 1:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure injection)? Yes. That's how commercial chain lubricants are formulated. The solvent carrier carries the lubricant onto the pins and rollers. "PJ1 Black Label is designed for standard non-”O”ring chains. PJ1 Black Label has a foaming action that penetrates pins and rollers as well as lubricating the rollers, sprocket and side plates. After penetrating the inside of the chain, PJ1 Black Label chain lube becomes a sticky lubricant that bounces back or has a “memory” effect that withstands the continual mechanical stress of the chain." For a very thick solid lubricant like wax, it has to be thinned by heating to penetrate. It now appears that people that use wax also add oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every 3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing." I remember you mentioning this "foaming action" several times before, but I am wondering exactly how this "foaming action" forces oil through the narrow passageway between the side plates. After all we are talking about a passageway that is very narrow with ambient pressure on one side and The Lord only knows what pressure on the other. What contains the tiny little bubbles in the foam that allows them to apply sufficient pressure to force themselves down into the dark and dismal depths of the chain? After all when a glass of beer is served with a head of foam the foam doesn't seem to exert sufficient pressure to force itself down into the beer, quite the opposite in fact, the foam seems to rise to the top. I might also comment that, in the gas and oil industry, producers spend considerable time and effort to de-gas, i.e. remove the foam, from oil before forcing it down a pipeline. As an aside, can you provide any reference from a reliable source that describes using a wax as a chain lube as being "recreational chain waxing"? After all Frank provided a reference from a source that seems to be the "last word" in measuring friction losses in the bicycle world that stated that the lowest losses were from using a wax lubricated chain, that described in detain how the test was made. cheers, John B. John, the popping of the bubbles that compose the foam puts a pressure inside the foam where it contacts the rollers. I'm not one to have a great deal of faith in this but it does appear to be plenty of lube everywhere including your chainstay and everyone within a yard of the operation. I'm not sure that this explanation is valid in that a bubble contains pressure inside the bubble but can only apply pressure outside the bubble if it is contained in some manner. Think of a balloon. Blow it up and then it simply floats around bumping into things and doesn't penetrate a bit. Or, as in my original post, bubbles in a glass of beer... or for those in an upper financial bracket, bubbles in a glass of champagne. The best I've used is Rock and Roll. This contains a Teflon lubricant in a solvent. You roll the chain and liberally spray the stuff on the chain/rear cassette for several revolutions of the chain. The solvent washes off the dirt and old lubricant. You then use a cloth to wipe as much of the chain dry as possible and then allow the chain to dry overnight. The Teflon penetrates between the rollers and the solvent evaporates overnight. So you have a clean chain that actually does have lubrication that you can actually feel and it is dry so the chain doesn't pick up dirt or leave muck on the chain rings and cogs. Of course this stuff is as expensive as gold and you have to use it fairly often to clean everything. Amazon has R&R Gold for $6.66 for 4 oz. cheers, John B. John, you don't seem to have the engineering concept. A lubricant bubble doesn't "bounce" off of anything. If the chain is dry each bubble progressive pops and wets and area. The next bubble floats along this lubricated surface until it in turn reaches an unlubricated surface etc. The bubbles are similar to your balloon idea save they have a very weak surface tension which is disturbed by anything other than the lubricant itself. Fine, I can agree with that but the idea that bubbles, for some reason, aid in forcing the lubricant into cracks and crevices is, at least in the descriptions offered to date, seems to be a factor of advertising not reality. Only about one part in eight of Rock and Roll is Teflon (the actual lubricant). A four ounce bottle is good for at the most, two application of a clean chain or one of a dirty one. I'd say that makes it expensive, wouldn't you? Gee, I don't know. In a previous post I offered the suggestion that cyclists probably shouldn't talk about prices and quoted TREK's prices to their top road and mountain bikes - $12,000 and $9,000 if I remember. And certainly TREK wouldn't be making them if they couldn't sell them. $6.66 on a $12,000 bicycle sounds like chicken feed. cheers, John B. John, how much have you paid for chain lube over the last year? I bought the 16 ounce bottle of Rock and Roll two years ago. Over the last year? Nothing! You see, I've been using hot wax for about 4 years now and while, yes, I bought some blocks of wax 4 years ago, or about that, I haven't spent a penny since. I paid twice as much as I should for chain wax. See, I bought a box of canning paraffin wax many, many years ago - probably decades ago, really. I used about half of it to mix up the concoction I used at the time. (I forget whether that one had a bit of motor oil or a bit of gear lube, but it doesn't matter.) When I saw my supply was finally getting low, I bought another pound of canning wax. Gulfwax brand, $4.29 says the price tag still on the box. But I procrastinated making the new batch, then I forgot I bought that box. I bought another one. $4.29 down the drain! Finally, rummaging around elsewhere, I found the half pound from the purchase years ago. The cardboard box it came in is rotted, but the wax looks fine. So really, that's $8.58 down the drain in - what? - just ten years or so! Ah but you are forgetting the LPG or CNG that you burn in your blowtorch to heat the chain :-) If anyone wants a free pound of wax, just stop by. cheers, John B. |
#87
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Chain Lube?
On 11/19/2018 10:36 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/19/2018 7:03 PM, Joy Beeson wrote: Besides, the little ones were allowed to play in the wagonload of grain, and when the combine unloaded into the wagon, I saw the grasshopper fragments coming down. Probably far fewer in ear corn than in wheat, though. Insects, mice etc. do get sucked into the harvest of various grains. Someone once claimed that if you take that into account, vegetarian diets probably kill more animals than carnivore diets. http://i3.cpcache.com/product/300091...idth=460&qv=90 -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#88
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Chain Lube?
On 11/19/2018 11:54 PM, John B. slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 23:34:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 11/19/2018 6:50 PM, John B. slocomb wrote: On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 08:52:17 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 4:57:31 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 16:18:41 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 4:02:50 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:35:49 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 3:40:25 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:25:25 -0800, sms wrote: On 11/15/2018 1:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure injection)? Yes. That's how commercial chain lubricants are formulated. The solvent carrier carries the lubricant onto the pins and rollers. "PJ1 Black Label is designed for standard non-”O”ring chains. PJ1 Black Label has a foaming action that penetrates pins and rollers as well as lubricating the rollers, sprocket and side plates. After penetrating the inside of the chain, PJ1 Black Label chain lube becomes a sticky lubricant that bounces back or has a “memory” effect that withstands the continual mechanical stress of the chain." For a very thick solid lubricant like wax, it has to be thinned by heating to penetrate. It now appears that people that use wax also add oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every 3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing." I remember you mentioning this "foaming action" several times before, but I am wondering exactly how this "foaming action" forces oil through the narrow passageway between the side plates. After all we are talking about a passageway that is very narrow with ambient pressure on one side and The Lord only knows what pressure on the other. What contains the tiny little bubbles in the foam that allows them to apply sufficient pressure to force themselves down into the dark and dismal depths of the chain? After all when a glass of beer is served with a head of foam the foam doesn't seem to exert sufficient pressure to force itself down into the beer, quite the opposite in fact, the foam seems to rise to the top. I might also comment that, in the gas and oil industry, producers spend considerable time and effort to de-gas, i.e. remove the foam, from oil before forcing it down a pipeline. As an aside, can you provide any reference from a reliable source that describes using a wax as a chain lube as being "recreational chain waxing"? After all Frank provided a reference from a source that seems to be the "last word" in measuring friction losses in the bicycle world that stated that the lowest losses were from using a wax lubricated chain, that described in detain how the test was made. cheers, John B. John, the popping of the bubbles that compose the foam puts a pressure inside the foam where it contacts the rollers. I'm not one to have a great deal of faith in this but it does appear to be plenty of lube everywhere including your chainstay and everyone within a yard of the operation. I'm not sure that this explanation is valid in that a bubble contains pressure inside the bubble but can only apply pressure outside the bubble if it is contained in some manner. Think of a balloon. Blow it up and then it simply floats around bumping into things and doesn't penetrate a bit. Or, as in my original post, bubbles in a glass of beer... or for those in an upper financial bracket, bubbles in a glass of champagne. The best I've used is Rock and Roll. This contains a Teflon lubricant in a solvent. You roll the chain and liberally spray the stuff on the chain/rear cassette for several revolutions of the chain. The solvent washes off the dirt and old lubricant. You then use a cloth to wipe as much of the chain dry as possible and then allow the chain to dry overnight. The Teflon penetrates between the rollers and the solvent evaporates overnight. So you have a clean chain that actually does have lubrication that you can actually feel and it is dry so the chain doesn't pick up dirt or leave muck on the chain rings and cogs. Of course this stuff is as expensive as gold and you have to use it fairly often to clean everything. Amazon has R&R Gold for $6.66 for 4 oz. cheers, John B. John, you don't seem to have the engineering concept. A lubricant bubble doesn't "bounce" off of anything. If the chain is dry each bubble progressive pops and wets and area. The next bubble floats along this lubricated surface until it in turn reaches an unlubricated surface etc. The bubbles are similar to your balloon idea save they have a very weak surface tension which is disturbed by anything other than the lubricant itself. Fine, I can agree with that but the idea that bubbles, for some reason, aid in forcing the lubricant into cracks and crevices is, at least in the descriptions offered to date, seems to be a factor of advertising not reality. Only about one part in eight of Rock and Roll is Teflon (the actual lubricant). A four ounce bottle is good for at the most, two application of a clean chain or one of a dirty one. I'd say that makes it expensive, wouldn't you? Gee, I don't know. In a previous post I offered the suggestion that cyclists probably shouldn't talk about prices and quoted TREK's prices to their top road and mountain bikes - $12,000 and $9,000 if I remember. And certainly TREK wouldn't be making them if they couldn't sell them. $6.66 on a $12,000 bicycle sounds like chicken feed. cheers, John B. John, how much have you paid for chain lube over the last year? I bought the 16 ounce bottle of Rock and Roll two years ago. Over the last year? Nothing! You see, I've been using hot wax for about 4 years now and while, yes, I bought some blocks of wax 4 years ago, or about that, I haven't spent a penny since. I paid twice as much as I should for chain wax. See, I bought a box of canning paraffin wax many, many years ago - probably decades ago, really. I used about half of it to mix up the concoction I used at the time. (I forget whether that one had a bit of motor oil or a bit of gear lube, but it doesn't matter.) When I saw my supply was finally getting low, I bought another pound of canning wax. Gulfwax brand, $4.29 says the price tag still on the box. But I procrastinated making the new batch, then I forgot I bought that box. I bought another one. $4.29 down the drain! Finally, rummaging around elsewhere, I found the half pound from the purchase years ago. The cardboard box it came in is rotted, but the wax looks fine. So really, that's $8.58 down the drain in - what? - just ten years or so! Ah but you are forgetting the LPG or CNG that you burn in your blowtorch to heat the chain :-) You're right! Damn, this may be costing me as much as a dollar per year! :-( -- - Frank Krygowski |
#89
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Chain Lube?
Why not just get something easier: https://www.ernestolube.com/buy
On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 10:51:06 AM UTC-6, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 11/19/2018 11:54 PM, John B. slocomb wrote: On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 23:34:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 11/19/2018 6:50 PM, John B. slocomb wrote: On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 08:52:17 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 4:57:31 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 16:18:41 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 4:02:50 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 10:35:49 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Saturday, November 17, 2018 at 3:40:25 PM UTC-8, John B. slocomb wrote: On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 12:25:25 -0800, sms wrote: On 11/15/2018 1:25 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure injection)? Yes. That's how commercial chain lubricants are formulated. The solvent carrier carries the lubricant onto the pins and rollers. "PJ1 Black Label is designed for standard non-”O”ring chains. PJ1 Black Label has a foaming action that penetrates pins and rollers as well as lubricating the rollers, sprocket and side plates. After penetrating the inside of the chain, PJ1 Black Label chain lube becomes a sticky lubricant that bounces back or has a “memory” effect that withstands the continual mechanical stress of the chain." For a very thick solid lubricant like wax, it has to be thinned by heating to penetrate. It now appears that people that use wax also add oil to the mixture because wax alone doesn't last very long. Perhaps in the future they'll decide that the oil alone is sufficient. But probably not. Tradition. It's like people that still change their car's oil every 3000 miles. It's just not possible to make them understand that it does not provide any advantage. It's called "recreational oil changing" just as waxing a chain is called "recreational chain waxing." I remember you mentioning this "foaming action" several times before, but I am wondering exactly how this "foaming action" forces oil through the narrow passageway between the side plates. After all we are talking about a passageway that is very narrow with ambient pressure on one side and The Lord only knows what pressure on the other. What contains the tiny little bubbles in the foam that allows them to apply sufficient pressure to force themselves down into the dark and dismal depths of the chain? After all when a glass of beer is served with a head of foam the foam doesn't seem to exert sufficient pressure to force itself down into the beer, quite the opposite in fact, the foam seems to rise to the top. I might also comment that, in the gas and oil industry, producers spend considerable time and effort to de-gas, i.e. remove the foam, from oil before forcing it down a pipeline. As an aside, can you provide any reference from a reliable source that describes using a wax as a chain lube as being "recreational chain waxing"? After all Frank provided a reference from a source that seems to be the "last word" in measuring friction losses in the bicycle world that stated that the lowest losses were from using a wax lubricated chain, that described in detain how the test was made. cheers, John B. John, the popping of the bubbles that compose the foam puts a pressure inside the foam where it contacts the rollers. I'm not one to have a great deal of faith in this but it does appear to be plenty of lube everywhere including your chainstay and everyone within a yard of the operation. I'm not sure that this explanation is valid in that a bubble contains pressure inside the bubble but can only apply pressure outside the bubble if it is contained in some manner. Think of a balloon. Blow it up and then it simply floats around bumping into things and doesn't penetrate a bit. Or, as in my original post, bubbles in a glass of beer... or for those in an upper financial bracket, bubbles in a glass of champagne. The best I've used is Rock and Roll. This contains a Teflon lubricant in a solvent. You roll the chain and liberally spray the stuff on the chain/rear cassette for several revolutions of the chain. The solvent washes off the dirt and old lubricant. You then use a cloth to wipe as much of the chain dry as possible and then allow the chain to dry overnight. The Teflon penetrates between the rollers and the solvent evaporates overnight. So you have a clean chain that actually does have lubrication that you can actually feel and it is dry so the chain doesn't pick up dirt or leave muck on the chain rings and cogs. Of course this stuff is as expensive as gold and you have to use it fairly often to clean everything. Amazon has R&R Gold for $6.66 for 4 oz. cheers, John B. John, you don't seem to have the engineering concept. A lubricant bubble doesn't "bounce" off of anything. If the chain is dry each bubble progressive pops and wets and area. The next bubble floats along this lubricated surface until it in turn reaches an unlubricated surface etc. The bubbles are similar to your balloon idea save they have a very weak surface tension which is disturbed by anything other than the lubricant itself. Fine, I can agree with that but the idea that bubbles, for some reason, aid in forcing the lubricant into cracks and crevices is, at least in the descriptions offered to date, seems to be a factor of advertising not reality. Only about one part in eight of Rock and Roll is Teflon (the actual lubricant). A four ounce bottle is good for at the most, two application of a clean chain or one of a dirty one. I'd say that makes it expensive, wouldn't you? Gee, I don't know. In a previous post I offered the suggestion that cyclists probably shouldn't talk about prices and quoted TREK's prices to their top road and mountain bikes - $12,000 and $9,000 if I remember. And certainly TREK wouldn't be making them if they couldn't sell them. $6.66 on a $12,000 bicycle sounds like chicken feed. cheers, John B. John, how much have you paid for chain lube over the last year? I bought the 16 ounce bottle of Rock and Roll two years ago. Over the last year? Nothing! You see, I've been using hot wax for about 4 years now and while, yes, I bought some blocks of wax 4 years ago, or about that, I haven't spent a penny since. I paid twice as much as I should for chain wax. See, I bought a box of canning paraffin wax many, many years ago - probably decades ago, really. I used about half of it to mix up the concoction I used at the time. (I forget whether that one had a bit of motor oil or a bit of gear lube, but it doesn't matter.) When I saw my supply was finally getting low, I bought another pound of canning wax. Gulfwax brand, $4.29 says the price tag still on the box. But I procrastinated making the new batch, then I forgot I bought that box. I bought another one. $4.29 down the drain! Finally, rummaging around elsewhere, I found the half pound from the purchase years ago. The cardboard box it came in is rotted, but the wax looks fine. So really, that's $8.58 down the drain in - what? - just ten years or so! Ah but you are forgetting the LPG or CNG that you burn in your blowtorch to heat the chain :-) You're right! Damn, this may be costing me as much as a dollar per year! :-( -- - Frank Krygowski |
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Chain Lube?
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