The dream is back

Edward Dolan wrote:

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...

Edward Dolan wrote:


"Ken_in_Michgan" wrote in message
e.com...
[...]


If we want to get the youth into bents we need to find a company that
will make a inexpensive bent that can be mass-marketed in the Meijers
and Wal-Marts of the nation.


I have been saying exactly this same thing for the past 25 years. There
is no reason on this earth why a recumbent can't be just as cheap as any
upright....

Reasons why recumbents will be inherently more expensive:

1) Odd tubes sizes and more welds, and/or mandrel bent tubes compared to a
DF upright.


Not necessarily. A recumbent can be a monotube. In some respects a recumbent
appears simpler to me than an upright.

Most monotube frames have several mandrel bends in them, or are welded
from several sections. Both are more expensive than a typical upright frame.

2) Two to three times the chain.


Chains can be made cheap enough if need be.

For a given quality of chain, the recumbent will be more expensive. It
would not be advisable to use anything of lesser quality than what is
put on upright bicycles of comparable overall quality, as the failure
rate would be unacceptably high.

3) Idlers or other chain management hardware.


Idlers are trivial things as is all chain management hardware - about on the
level of nuts and bolts.


4) More complicated seat with greater material and labor costs vs. mass
produced saddles.


Recumbent seats could be churned out as cheap as any upright saddle. Kids
don't need the ultimate in comfort when it comes to seats. When I was a kid
in school, we sat at very hard wooden desks. Yet I don't ever recall my
fanny getting sore.

Any recumbent seat with a modicum of comfort and durability will cost
more. A plastic upright saddle with carbon steel rails costs almost
nothing to manufacture.

5) Custom steering risers and handlebars or USS systems vs. mass produced
stems and handlebars.


USS ought to be outlawed. Who needs it. All steering for recumbents for kids
would be direct steering. Risers and handlebars would be mass produced the
same as always. No difference there.

Mr. Dolan's original statement was, "There is no reason on this earth
why a recumbent can't be just as cheap as any upright." Note that there
was no qualification that this statement was only for children's recumbents.

A recumbent will require more adjustment range in the steering than an
upright for proper fit. This will result in greater expense.

--
Tom Sherman

"BentJay" wrote in message
om...
Oh man, Ken. Now you're gonna get it!

BentJay

This is nothing but adding insult to injury. I pride myself on being fair
and treating others the way they treat me. If you are polite and courteous,
then it will be my pleasure to return the favor. If you are otherwise, then
it will also be my pleasure to return the favor.

I am the most grievously wronged person in the entire history of Usenet. I
am put upon and vilified when I am actually one of the few saints remaining
in this world. My trials and tribulations here on ARBR ought to shame and
mortify all right thinking souls. Job has nothing on me.

When I die I am going to come back to haunt the lot of you and make you
ashamed of the way you have treated me. But I know that no man is ever
properly appreciated in his own newsgroup. You will miss me when I'm gone.

--
Regards,

Saint Edward - Order of the Perpetual Miseries - Minnesota

"Mark Leuck" wrote in message
news:48L5d.374461$8_6.272788@attbi_s04...

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
...

Yours in Ignorance,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Truer words were never spoken

And this from an idiot who does not believe in periods at the end of his
sentences! I leave it to the readers of this group as to who is ignorant and
who is not ignorant.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Edward Dolan wrote:

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...

Edward Dolan wrote:


"Ken_in_Michgan" wrote in message
le.com...
[...]


If we want to get the youth into bents we need to find a company that
will make a inexpensive bent that can be mass-marketed in the Meijers
and Wal-Marts of the nation.


I have been saying exactly this same thing for the past 25 years. There
is no reason on this earth why a recumbent can't be just as cheap as any
upright....

Reasons why recumbents will be inherently more expensive:

1) Odd tubes sizes and more welds, and/or mandrel bent tubes compared to
a DF upright.


Not necessarily. A recumbent can be a monotube. In some respects a
recumbent appears simpler to me than an upright.

Most monotube frames have several mandrel bends in them, or are welded
from several sections. Both are more expensive than a typical upright
frame.

Maybe most, but not all. I have a recumbent bike that consists of nothing
but a straight square main tube with a fork on the front end and a fork on
the rear end for chain stays (Kowal KD-4). I believe a recumbent frame could
be made even cheaper than an upright frame.

2) Two to three times the chain.


Chains can be made cheap enough if need be.

For a given quality of chain, the recumbent will be more expensive. It
would not be advisable to use anything of lesser quality than what is put
on upright bicycles of comparable overall quality, as the failure rate
would be unacceptably high.

Hardware store chains are perfectly acceptable. I used to be able to get
these for less than $3.00 per chain. Bike shops are selling very high end
chains these days and are outrageously expensive.

3) Idlers or other chain management hardware.


Idlers are trivial things as is all chain management hardware - about on
the level of nuts and bolts.


4) More complicated seat with greater material and labor costs vs. mass
produced saddles.


Recumbent seats could be churned out as cheap as any upright saddle. Kids
don't need the ultimate in comfort when it comes to seats. When I was a
kid in school, we sat at very hard wooden desks. Yet I don't ever recall
my fanny getting sore.

Any recumbent seat with a modicum of comfort and durability will cost
more. A plastic upright saddle with carbon steel rails costs almost
nothing to manufacture.

Recumbent seats could be mass produced that would cost no more than a
conventional saddle. It you wanted the utmost in comfort, you could buy a
good foam for it at your own expense. Mass production is the key to
everything.

5) Custom steering risers and handlebars or USS systems vs. mass produced
stems and handlebars.


USS ought to be outlawed. Who needs it. All steering for recumbents for
kids would be direct steering. Risers and handlebars would be mass
produced the same as always. No difference there.

Mr. Dolan's original statement was, "There is no reason on this earth why
a recumbent can't be just as cheap as any upright." Note that there was no
qualification that this statement was only for children's recumbents.

Uprights come in a variety of price ranges depending on quality, but there
really are no cheap recumbents. Until there are, recumbents will be at a
permanent disadvantage.

A recumbent will require more adjustment range in the steering than an
upright for proper fit. This will result in greater expense.

Usually, a recumbent will be one size fits all. The RANS Rocket would be the
perfect example. That is not true of uprights. The result will be a lesser
expense for recumbents despite the adjustments needed for fit.

Kids do not need much quality in their bikes. The kind of bikes that
Wal-Mart sells for around $100. are perfect for kids. Recumbents for kids
could be made equally as cheap if there was a demand for them. But there
isn't, and so they aren't made. It is really just that simple.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
...

I have never called anyone stupid who didn't call me stupid first.

Another lie from Ed Dolan!

Perry B - Minnesota

"Perry Butler" wrote in message
...

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
...

I have never called anyone stupid who didn't call me stupid first.

Another lie from Ed Dolan!

Perry Butler is like a needle stuck in the groove of a recording. All he
knows how to say anymore is that Ed Dolan is a liar. I am glad he can at
least spell my name right. But he needs to get a new record on the old
phonograph, one that is not constantly skipping over the same old groove.

With posters like Perry Butler, you do not ever have to wait for them to
call you stupid because they announce themselves right off the bat. Hey
everybody, I am Perry Butler and look at how stupid I am! And now I will
prove it by calling everyone that I don't like a liar.

When I call him a stupid son of a bitch I am only confirming what everyone
else here already knows about him. I actually feel sorry for the poor sap.

My only regret is that this jackass is also from the benighted state of
Minnesota, but he lives further north than I do and so his brain has been
frozen solid like a block of ice. Oh well, just another asininity from Perry
Butler. What else is new?

--
****ing Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

PS. Perry Butler wrote exactly five words of which two consisted of my name.
Anyone care to count the number of words I wrote in response to his few
words. Not exactly a fair exchange - to anyone but Perry Butler.

I can think of one reason right off the bat. If there were a mass market for
kid's recumbents, then recumbents for us adults would reflect this and they
would not be nearly so expensive as they are presently. How would you like
to pay a few hundred dollars for a good recumbent rather than a few
thousand?

That is indeed an excellent reason, and I thank you.


James S. Prine
http://hometown.aol.com/jsprine/

I was given a 14 year old VW Rabbit that had 160,000+ miles, a large
rust hole in the floor, no exhaust system, non-functioning lights, and
bald tires.

We suspected that you were quite 'comfortable', financially speaking of course,
but you don't have to rub our noses in your conspicuous display of wealth.


James S. Prine
http://hometown.aol.com/jsprine/

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
...

"Mark Leuck" wrote in message
news:48L5d.374461$8_6.272788@attbi_s04...

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
...

Yours in Ignorance,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Truer words were never spoken

And this from an idiot who does not believe in periods at the end of his
sentences! I leave it to the readers of this group as to who is ignorant
and
who is not ignorant.


I suspect they came to a conclusion a long time ago

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
...

Most monotube frames have several mandrel bends in them, or are welded
from several sections. Both are more expensive than a typical upright
frame.

Maybe most, but not all. I have a recumbent bike that consists of nothing
but a straight square main tube with a fork on the front end and a fork
on
the rear end for chain stays (Kowal KD-4). I believe a recumbent frame
could
be made even cheaper than an upright frame.

Could be is the word, you forget recumbent frames are for the most part
custom built, recumbent manufacturers do not have the luxury of being able
to produce tens or hundreds of thousands of frames in a given time, they do
not possess the same (expensive) machinery. You cannot assume Rans makes
frames the same way Trek does with its automated robotics in frame

Hardware store chains are perfectly acceptable. I used to be able to get
these for less than $3.00 per chain. Bike shops are selling very high end
chains these days and are outrageously expensive.

Thats a joke right? for $3.00 you have a heavy crap chain that will likely
not last a month

Any recumbent seat with a modicum of comfort and durability will cost
more. A plastic upright saddle with carbon steel rails costs almost
nothing to manufacture.

Recumbent seats could be mass produced that would cost no more than a
conventional saddle. It you wanted the utmost in comfort, you could buy a
good foam for it at your own expense. Mass production is the key to
everything.

I do not see how any recumbent seat can be made for the same price as a
standard DF seat, not possible but again you miss the point, mass production
does not exist in the recumbent world to the same extent that it does in the
standard bike world.

Uprights come in a variety of price ranges depending on quality, but there
really are no cheap recumbents. Until there are, recumbents will be at a
permanent disadvantage

I agree and to be honest I don't want everyone else riding my type of bike

A recumbent will require more adjustment range in the steering than an
upright for proper fit. This will result in greater expense.

Usually, a recumbent will be one size fits all. The RANS Rocket would be
the
perfect example. That is not true of uprights. The result will be a lesser
expense for recumbents despite the adjustments needed for fit.

How so? It costs money making that adjusting boom, chain tensioners, seat
brackets etc, having different sized frames in the DF world means nothing to
the manufacturer because they have such a huge market pool

Kids do not need much quality in their bikes. The kind of bikes that
Wal-Mart sells for around $100. are perfect for kids.

True and I had no problems paying that much later in my 20's, I bet Huffy
made several hundred thousand bikes in that time period, guess what the
combined output of all recumbent manufacturers was this year as a
comparison?

Recumbents for kids
could be made equally as cheap if there was a demand for them. But there
isn't, and so they aren't made. It is really just that simple.

It isn't that simple, if it were we'd have seen them by now, the demand
isn't there because 99% of the population has never heard of or seen a
recumbent bicycle not because of price