Grant Petersen / Rivendell on carbon forks

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jun 26, 3:55 am, Ned Mantei wrote:
In article
,
Frank Krygowski wrote:



On Jun 25, 1:29 am, James wrote:
On Jun 25, 2:00 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I don't care what sort of brakes or levers you have, you can't
stop when a door pops open immediately in front of you,
especially at 40 kph. Stay out of the door zone.

Dear Frank.

Thank you for your concern, and I agree with you that it would be
impossible to stop from 40 when a door pops open in front of you.
That's when I move around it. Like I said before, I'm usually 1+m
away already, and keenly watching for danger.

The door zone is bigger than most people realize.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TQ7aID1jHs

- Frank Krygowski

Thanks for pointing out that video. I hadn't realized how large the
door zone is.
Eugene Sloan's "Complete book of bicycling" (appeared in ca. 1982)
recommended watching for someone sitting in the driver's seat while
riding along a row of parked cars.

Yeah, that's one of the _many_ things I didn't like about Sloan's
books.

People can pop the door open even if the parked vehicle has tinted
windows. Or sun glaring on the window. Or high seatbacks. Or a
slouching occupant... etc.

- Frank Krygowski

Yes, to all that. Sloan's is also where I learned that, and I'm pretty sure
it was pre-1982, more like '75 or thereabouts.

We ask drivers to give us 3 feet when they pass, and implicitly trust and
accept that they will. Why should doors on parked cars be so different? For
that matter, cars pull away from the curb from time to time. A 5' space
between parked cars and same way bicycle and car traffic is not sufficient
for all happenstance, while also being unreasonably large, not to mention
unlikely anytime soon where I ride.

In 1975 when I learned to drive in a Chicago public highschool, we were
taught to check the sideview mirrors before opening the car door. This was
not so much for bicyclist safety, but for our own safety and survival. The
more likely incursion is with a car in the adjacent travel lane. The law
places responsibility for injury and damage on the driver of the parked car.

My point being, yes, car doors can and do open on passing bicyclists. Yes,
also, those doors can kill or cause severe injury to the cyclist. At the
same time, cyclists can be and are killed in other ways due to driver error.

I lose track of who says and feels what, regarding safety. Some feel the
hats are inadequate. Some think the roads and paths are not safe for
cycling. Others seem to feel it's a safe activity.

On Jun 26, 5:31*pm, "MikeWhy" wrote:

I lose track of who says and feels what, regarding safety. Some feel the
hats are inadequate. Some think the roads and paths are not safe for
cycling. Others seem to feel it's a safe activity.

I feel cycling's a safe activity, and I've collected lots of data that
confirms that. So safe that it doesn't matter whether the hats are
adequate or not - which they aren't.

- Frank Krygowski

On Jun 27, 3:41*am, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,



*James wrote:
On Jun 26, 3:58*am, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,

*James wrote:
On Jun 25, 6:09*pm, Michael Press wrote:
Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks.
It is not difficult to be in the right gear
ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers.

Sorry I don't agree, Michael. *IMHO, it is up to the individual to
decide what they find most appropriate. *Personally I find the hoods
most appropriate. *I can brake, change gears and bunny hop wet tram
tracks without moving my hands.

The hoods do not offer best control of the bicycle.
This discussion is about riding in heavy traffic
where a rider needs best control.

We differ on this opinion. *And for the record, I've never had a hand
come off the hoods and I know every pot hole by name.

Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine, because we used to
use them and we managed?

I do not understand the question.
A positive foot to pedal attachment
helps a rider control the bicycle,
making it a boon in heavy traffic.
Having a foot slip off the pedal
in heavy traffic is dangerous.

So positive is the cleat and toe strap combination, if secured
properly, that if you have to stop in a hurry, you will not get to
your toe strap loose in time, and unless you are very good at
performing a track stand, or there's something for you to hold on to,
you will fall off.

This remark has nothing to do with what I said,
except that it also discusses foot-pedal attachment.

I still do not understand your question
"Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine,
because we used to use them and we managed?"

Maybe I miss understood what you wrote (below), but you seem to be
insistent that riding in the drops is the safest place for ones hands,
and that changing gear can happen when it's safe to do so, and that
therefore Ergo/STI levers offer no safety advantage, and that you also
must believe down tube shifters make no difference to safety compared
with STI/Ergo levers.

On Jun 25, 6:09 pm, Michael Press wrote:
Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks.
It is not difficult to be in the right gear
ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers.

Now as I've said, I disagree and I've stated why. I believe the hoods
are safer, because I can brake, change gear and bunny hop a wet tram
line from the one position.

I wonder whether you feel that the combination of toe straps and
cleats are just as safe as clip less pedals, given that you should be
able to loosen the toe strap ahead of time perhaps, in the event of an
emergency stop?

I'm saying, in the same way as you feel that STI/Ergo levers are not a
safety advantage, do you also believe that clip less pedals are not a
safety advantage?

Personally, I find clip less pedals are the bees knees. No more numb
toes or squashed feet, and I can become attached and disengaged from
the pedals at will.

James.

On Jun 27, 3:08*pm, James wrote:
On Jun 27, 3:41*am, Michael Press wrote:





In article
,

*James wrote:
On Jun 26, 3:58*am, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,

*James wrote:
On Jun 25, 6:09*pm, Michael Press wrote:
Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks.
It is not difficult to be in the right gear
ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers.

Sorry I don't agree, Michael. *IMHO, it is up to the individual to
decide what they find most appropriate. *Personally I find the hoods
most appropriate. *I can brake, change gears and bunny hop wet tram
tracks without moving my hands.

The hoods do not offer best control of the bicycle.
This discussion is about riding in heavy traffic
where a rider needs best control.

We differ on this opinion. *And for the record, I've never had a hand
come off the hoods and I know every pot hole by name.

Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine, because we used to
use them and we managed?

I do not understand the question.
A positive foot to pedal attachment
helps a rider control the bicycle,
making it a boon in heavy traffic.
Having a foot slip off the pedal
in heavy traffic is dangerous.

So positive is the cleat and toe strap combination, if secured
properly, that if you have to stop in a hurry, you will not get to
your toe strap loose in time, and unless you are very good at
performing a track stand, or there's something for you to hold on to,
you will fall off.

This remark has nothing to do with what I said,
except that it also discusses foot-pedal attachment.

I still do not understand your question
"Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine,
because we used to use them and we managed?"

Maybe I miss understood what you wrote (below), but you seem to be
insistent that riding in the drops is the safest place for ones hands,
and that changing gear can happen when it's safe to do so, and that
therefore Ergo/STI levers offer no safety advantage, and that you also
must believe down tube shifters make no difference to safety compared
with STI/Ergo levers.

On Jun 25, 6:09 pm, Michael Press wrote:
Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks.
It is not difficult to be in the right gear
ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers.

Now as I've said, I disagree and I've stated why. *I believe the hoods
are safer, because I can brake, change gear and bunny hop a wet tram
line from the one position.

I wonder whether you feel that the combination of toe straps and
cleats are just as safe as clip less pedals, given that you should be
able to loosen the toe strap ahead of time perhaps, in the event of an
emergency stop?

I'm saying, in the same way as you feel that STI/Ergo levers are not a
safety advantage, do you also believe that clip less pedals are not a
safety advantage?

Personally, I find clip less pedals are the bees knees. *No more numb
toes or squashed feet, and I can become attached and disengaged from
the pedals at will.

Hey James, why stop there?! You obviously fail to understand the
*NEED* for threaded headset and quill stem! After all, don't you
adjust your stem up and down depending on the time of year and whether
you are in shape or not?! If not, you better get with it!

Further, what kind of wheels are you using? You ought to be using
traditional 32 or better yet 36 hole spoke wheels with tubular tires!
Further, those wheels better be "tied and soldered" as you don't want
to break a spoke racing up alpe d'huez!

Finally, I presume you carry a full size frame pump on your bike and
not one of those "sissy" mini-pump thingies. We don't want to hear how
you couldn't fix a flat because your pump was too small to pump your
tires up to the minimum pressure of at least 120psi!!!! Good Luck!

In article
,
James wrote:


[...]

Maybe I miss understood what you wrote (below), but you seem to be
insistent that riding in the drops is the safest place for ones hands,
and that changing gear can happen when it's safe to do so, and that
therefore Ergo/STI levers offer no safety advantage, and that you also
must believe down tube shifters make no difference to safety compared
with STI/Ergo levers.

Exactly. I prefer to rely on foresight and riding in the hooks
for safety in heavy traffic.

On Jun 25, 6:09 pm, Michael Press wrote:
Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks.
It is not difficult to be in the right gear
ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers.

Now as I've said, I disagree and I've stated why. I believe the hoods
are safer, because I can brake, change gear and bunny hop a wet tram
line from the one position.

I still do not believe riding on the hoods is safer,
regardless of the advantages you gain.
Sure I ride on the hoods and tops and bends in traffic,
but not when it starts to get thick.

I wonder whether you feel that the combination of toe straps and
cleats are just as safe as clip less pedals, given that you should be
able to loosen the toe strap ahead of time perhaps, in the event of an
emergency stop?

Cleats and toe straps do not work well in heavy traffic.
I never rode them in traffic.

I'm saying, in the same way as you feel that STI/Ergo levers are not a
safety advantage, do you also believe that clip less pedals are not a
safety advantage?

Insofar as cleats and toe straps are only for experts.
I road toe straps without cleats in traffic,
before changing to click in shoe retention.

Personally, I find clip less pedals are the bees knees. No more numb
toes or squashed feet, and I can become attached and disengaged from
the pedals at will.

I prefer click in pedals too.

--
Michael Press

On Jun 28, 10:14*am, bfd wrote:
On Jun 27, 3:08*pm, James wrote:



On Jun 27, 3:41*am, Michael Press wrote:

In article
,

*James wrote:
On Jun 26, 3:58*am, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,

*James wrote:
On Jun 25, 6:09*pm, Michael Press wrote:
Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks.
It is not difficult to be in the right gear
ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers.

Sorry I don't agree, Michael. *IMHO, it is up to the individual to
decide what they find most appropriate. *Personally I find the hoods
most appropriate. *I can brake, change gears and bunny hop wet tram
tracks without moving my hands.

The hoods do not offer best control of the bicycle.
This discussion is about riding in heavy traffic
where a rider needs best control.

We differ on this opinion. *And for the record, I've never had a hand
come off the hoods and I know every pot hole by name.

Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine, because we used to
use them and we managed?

I do not understand the question.
A positive foot to pedal attachment
helps a rider control the bicycle,
making it a boon in heavy traffic.
Having a foot slip off the pedal
in heavy traffic is dangerous.

So positive is the cleat and toe strap combination, if secured
properly, that if you have to stop in a hurry, you will not get to
your toe strap loose in time, and unless you are very good at
performing a track stand, or there's something for you to hold on to,
you will fall off.

This remark has nothing to do with what I said,
except that it also discusses foot-pedal attachment.

I still do not understand your question
"Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine,
because we used to use them and we managed?"

Maybe I miss understood what you wrote (below), but you seem to be
insistent that riding in the drops is the safest place for ones hands,
and that changing gear can happen when it's safe to do so, and that
therefore Ergo/STI levers offer no safety advantage, and that you also
must believe down tube shifters make no difference to safety compared
with STI/Ergo levers.

On Jun 25, 6:09 pm, Michael Press wrote:
Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks.
It is not difficult to be in the right gear
ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers.

Now as I've said, I disagree and I've stated why. *I believe the hoods
are safer, because I can brake, change gear and bunny hop a wet tram
line from the one position.

I wonder whether you feel that the combination of toe straps and
cleats are just as safe as clip less pedals, given that you should be
able to loosen the toe strap ahead of time perhaps, in the event of an
emergency stop?

I'm saying, in the same way as you feel that STI/Ergo levers are not a
safety advantage, do you also believe that clip less pedals are not a
safety advantage?

Personally, I find clip less pedals are the bees knees. *No more numb
toes or squashed feet, and I can become attached and disengaged from
the pedals at will.

Hey James, why stop there?! You obviously fail to understand the
*NEED* for threaded headset and quill stem! After all, don't you
adjust your stem up and down depending on the time of year and whether
you are in shape or not?! If not, you better get with it!

Further, what kind of wheels are you using? You ought to be using
traditional 32 or better yet 36 hole spoke wheels with tubular tires!
Further, those wheels better be "tied and soldered" as you don't want
to break a spoke racing up alpe d'huez!

Finally, I presume you carry a full size frame pump on your bike and
not one of those "sissy" mini-pump thingies. We don't want to hear how
you couldn't fix a flat because your pump was too small to pump your
tires up to the minimum pressure of at least 120psi!!!! Good Luck!- Hide quoted text -

It's not really the same old argument regarding new versus old. James
was arguing that STI/Ergo was safer in traffic -- which is a really
hard claim to prove (although it may be true). I was waiting for
Frank to cite a bunch of reports showing zero decline in injury rate
when Australian cyclists were forced to use brifters. I guess Big
Brifter has not tried to pass any MBLs, so we wont see those reports
any time soon. -- Jay Beattie.

On Jun 28, 2:43*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jun 28, 10:14*am, bfd wrote:





On Jun 27, 3:08*pm, James wrote:

On Jun 27, 3:41*am, Michael Press wrote:

In article
,

*James wrote:
On Jun 26, 3:58*am, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,

*James wrote:
On Jun 25, 6:09*pm, Michael Press wrote:
Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks.
It is not difficult to be in the right gear
ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers.

Sorry I don't agree, Michael. *IMHO, it is up to the individual to
decide what they find most appropriate. *Personally I find the hoods
most appropriate. *I can brake, change gears and bunny hop wet tram
tracks without moving my hands.

The hoods do not offer best control of the bicycle.
This discussion is about riding in heavy traffic
where a rider needs best control.

We differ on this opinion. *And for the record, I've never had a hand
come off the hoods and I know every pot hole by name.

Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine, because we used to
use them and we managed?

I do not understand the question.
A positive foot to pedal attachment
helps a rider control the bicycle,
making it a boon in heavy traffic.
Having a foot slip off the pedal
in heavy traffic is dangerous.

So positive is the cleat and toe strap combination, if secured
properly, that if you have to stop in a hurry, you will not get to
your toe strap loose in time, and unless you are very good at
performing a track stand, or there's something for you to hold on to,
you will fall off.

This remark has nothing to do with what I said,
except that it also discusses foot-pedal attachment.

I still do not understand your question
"Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine,
because we used to use them and we managed?"

Maybe I miss understood what you wrote (below), but you seem to be
insistent that riding in the drops is the safest place for ones hands,
and that changing gear can happen when it's safe to do so, and that
therefore Ergo/STI levers offer no safety advantage, and that you also
must believe down tube shifters make no difference to safety compared
with STI/Ergo levers.

On Jun 25, 6:09 pm, Michael Press wrote:
Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks.
It is not difficult to be in the right gear
ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers.

Now as I've said, I disagree and I've stated why. *I believe the hoods
are safer, because I can brake, change gear and bunny hop a wet tram
line from the one position.

I wonder whether you feel that the combination of toe straps and
cleats are just as safe as clip less pedals, given that you should be
able to loosen the toe strap ahead of time perhaps, in the event of an
emergency stop?

I'm saying, in the same way as you feel that STI/Ergo levers are not a
safety advantage, do you also believe that clip less pedals are not a
safety advantage?

Personally, I find clip less pedals are the bees knees. *No more numb
toes or squashed feet, and I can become attached and disengaged from
the pedals at will.

Hey James, why stop there?! You obviously fail to understand the
*NEED* for threaded headset and quill stem! After all, don't you
adjust your stem up and down depending on the time of year and whether
you are in shape or not?! If not, you better get with it!

Further, what kind of wheels are you using? You ought to be using
traditional 32 or better yet 36 hole spoke wheels with tubular tires!
Further, those wheels better be "tied and soldered" as you don't want
to break a spoke racing up alpe d'huez!

Finally, I presume you carry a full size frame pump on your bike and
not one of those "sissy" mini-pump thingies. We don't want to hear how
you couldn't fix a flat because your pump was too small to pump your
tires up to the minimum pressure of at least 120psi!!!! Good Luck!- Hide quoted text -

It's not really the same old argument regarding new versus old. *James
was arguing that STI/Ergo was safer in traffic -- which is a really
hard claim to prove (although it may be true). * I was waiting for
Frank to cite a bunch of reports showing zero decline in injury rate
when Australian cyclists were forced to use brifters. I guess Big
Brifter has not tried to pass any MBLs, so we wont see those reports
any time soon. -- Jay Beattie.- Hide quoted text -

Yeah, I don't know if there is anyway to prove which way is "safer." I
hink it comes down to riding styles. If riding on the hoods is what
works for you, and your hand doesn't bounce off the hoods on a big
bump, then go for it. On the other hand, if you like riding "on the
hooks," and your bike is set up so that riding that way is
comfortable, most riders today have their bars too low for that, then
do it!

On the other hand, Campy new ergo shifters are larger and provide a
nice place to grip the hoods, so that may be the way to go.

Ride the different levers and find what's comfortable for you. Then
get out and ride! Good Luck!

On Jun 29, 3:14*am, bfd wrote:
On Jun 27, 3:08*pm, James wrote:

On Jun 27, 3:41*am, Michael Press wrote:

In article
,

*James wrote:
On Jun 26, 3:58*am, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,

*James wrote:
On Jun 25, 6:09*pm, Michael Press wrote:
Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks.
It is not difficult to be in the right gear
ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers.

Sorry I don't agree, Michael. *IMHO, it is up to the individual to
decide what they find most appropriate. *Personally I find the hoods
most appropriate. *I can brake, change gears and bunny hop wet tram
tracks without moving my hands.

The hoods do not offer best control of the bicycle.
This discussion is about riding in heavy traffic
where a rider needs best control.

We differ on this opinion. *And for the record, I've never had a hand
come off the hoods and I know every pot hole by name.

Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine, because we used to
use them and we managed?

I do not understand the question.
A positive foot to pedal attachment
helps a rider control the bicycle,
making it a boon in heavy traffic.
Having a foot slip off the pedal
in heavy traffic is dangerous.

So positive is the cleat and toe strap combination, if secured
properly, that if you have to stop in a hurry, you will not get to
your toe strap loose in time, and unless you are very good at
performing a track stand, or there's something for you to hold on to,
you will fall off.

This remark has nothing to do with what I said,
except that it also discusses foot-pedal attachment.

I still do not understand your question
"Do you also say that toe clips and cleats are fine,
because we used to use them and we managed?"

Maybe I miss understood what you wrote (below), but you seem to be
insistent that riding in the drops is the safest place for ones hands,
and that changing gear can happen when it's safe to do so, and that
therefore Ergo/STI levers offer no safety advantage, and that you also
must believe down tube shifters make no difference to safety compared
with STI/Ergo levers.

On Jun 25, 6:09 pm, Michael Press wrote:
Best control of the bicycle is in the hooks.
It is not difficult to be in the right gear
ahead of time without Ergo/STI levers.

Now as I've said, I disagree and I've stated why. *I believe the hoods
are safer, because I can brake, change gear and bunny hop a wet tram
line from the one position.

I wonder whether you feel that the combination of toe straps and
cleats are just as safe as clip less pedals, given that you should be
able to loosen the toe strap ahead of time perhaps, in the event of an
emergency stop?

I'm saying, in the same way as you feel that STI/Ergo levers are not a
safety advantage, do you also believe that clip less pedals are not a
safety advantage?

Personally, I find clip less pedals are the bees knees. *No more numb
toes or squashed feet, and I can become attached and disengaged from
the pedals at will.

Hey James, why stop there?! You obviously fail to understand the
*NEED* for threaded headset and quill stem! After all, don't you
adjust your stem up and down depending on the time of year and whether
you are in shape or not?! If not, you better get with it!

Further, what kind of wheels are you using? You ought to be using
traditional 32 or better yet 36 hole spoke wheels with tubular tires!
Further, those wheels better be "tied and soldered" as you don't want
to break a spoke racing up alpe d'huez!

Finally, I presume you carry a full size frame pump on your bike and
not one of those "sissy" mini-pump thingies. We don't want to hear how
you couldn't fix a flat because your pump was too small to pump your
tires up to the minimum pressure of at least 120psi!!!! Good Luck!

I have no idea where that came from.

JS.

On 6/26/10 9:55 AM, Ned Mantei wrote:
In article
,
Frank wrote:

On Jun 25, 1:29 am, wrote:
On Jun 25, 2:00 pm, Frank wrote:

I don't care what sort of brakes or levers you have, you can't stop
when a door pops open immediately in front of you, especially at 40
kph. Stay out of the door zone.

Dear Frank.

Thank you for your concern, and I agree with you that it would be
impossible to stop from 40 when a door pops open in front of you.
That's when I move around it. Like I said before, I'm usually 1+m
away already, and keenly watching for danger.

The door zone is bigger than most people realize.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TQ7aID1jHs

- Frank Krygowski

Thanks for pointing out that video. I hadn't realized how large the door
zone is.
Eugene Sloan's "Complete book of bicycling" (appeared in ca. 1982)
recommended watching for someone sitting in the driver's seat while
riding along a row of parked cars. I try to do this, and also ride maybe
20 km/hr rather than 40. Still, last year my luggage rack was scraped
when someone opened the *passenger* door of a car parked facing the
wrong way in the street.

Looking in the car's side mirror is a good way to see if someone is
sitting in the driver's seat.

--
PoZdR
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++
"A properly shaped leather saddle is an excellent
choice for the high-mileage rider who doesn't mind
the fact that it is a bit heavier than a plastic saddle."
Sheldon Brown: 1944 - 2008
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++

"Coaster" wrote in message
...
On 6/26/10 9:55 AM, Ned Mantei wrote:
In article
,
Frank wrote:

On Jun 25, 1:29 am, wrote:
On Jun 25, 2:00 pm, Frank wrote:

I don't care what sort of brakes or levers you have, you can't stop
when a door pops open immediately in front of you, especially at 40
kph. Stay out of the door zone.

Dear Frank.

Thank you for your concern, and I agree with you that it would be
impossible to stop from 40 when a door pops open in front of you.
That's when I move around it. Like I said before, I'm usually 1+m
away already, and keenly watching for danger.

The door zone is bigger than most people realize.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TQ7aID1jHs

- Frank Krygowski

Thanks for pointing out that video. I hadn't realized how large the door
zone is.
Eugene Sloan's "Complete book of bicycling" (appeared in ca. 1982)
recommended watching for someone sitting in the driver's seat while
riding along a row of parked cars. I try to do this, and also ride maybe
20 km/hr rather than 40. Still, last year my luggage rack was scraped
when someone opened the *passenger* door of a car parked facing the
wrong way in the street.

Looking in the car's side mirror is a good way to see if someone is
sitting in the driver's seat.

I find the windows are mostly tinted these days and I can't see anything.
Regardless, placing yourself there makes you most visible in case the driver
happens to bother to check his sideview mirror.