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#21
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Chris B. quoted someone thusly
in message . .. "That includes N.D.P. MPP Michael Prue, who lost his brother to a bike accident in 1998. ?There isn't a day goes by that I don't see someone on the streets of Toronto, an adult, with no helmet on their head, and I want to get out of my car or off the sidewalk and I want to grab them and I want to shake them,? he reflects. ?I want to tell them that this was an absolutely wrong thing, a bad thing to happen." Oh dear! Shaking them? MPP Prue really should read up on rotational injuries that are not prevented --- and may be exacerbated -- by wearing a helmet. Peter Storey |
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#22
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On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 14:36:05 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: AustinMN wrote: Chris Phillipo wrote In article , says... I'm saying that he constantly posts statistics that claim helmet use is detrimental to the health of the people because it deters them from riding, I counter that in Nova Scotia helmet use is not enforced so where exactly is this deterrent for riders? Chris, these two statements don't oppose and contradict each other. Come again? Take a deep breath. Just because a law is not enforced, doesn't mean there aren't people who obey it. The existence of the law (whether or not it is enforced) _is_ a deterrent. More to the point, just because a law is not enforced - or, more likely, not _usually_ enforced - doesn't mean that there are people who are put off by the _possibility_ of enforcement. Those who think a MHL has no effect on cycling are being very unrealistic. Frank, why did you remove the cross post? It is very much on topic for ont.bicycle. -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber-barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber- baron's cruelty may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis |
#23
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Benjamin Lewis wrote:
To go even further, the mere existence of a law purported to be for "safety" purposes, even if it is *guaranteed* to be unenforced, can potentially be a deterrent, since it spreads the idea, sometimes unconsciously, that the activity is dangerous. Not to mention spreading the silly idea that the government is your parent. |
#24
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Dragan Cvetkovic writes:
Chris Phillipo writes: In article , bikerider@-no- spam-thanks-rogers.com says... I wonder why. Are you aware that mandatory helmet laws implemented in Alberta, Nova Scotia, New Zealand and parts of Australia have not only not shown benefits but have actually had negative effects (decreased numbers of cyclists in all cases and sometimes an increase in the rate of head injury after the law is enacted)? Ho hum, that would be a neat trick considering the helmet laws are not even enforced outside of Halifax in Nova Scotia. Which makes me think the rest of these "statitics" are in quesiton. Are you saying that people should obey the law only if it is actually and actively enforced? He's saying what I have said for years on this topic: that laws that are not obeyed or enforced have zero impact on human behavior. People are not going to stop cycling because of a helmet law that is neither obeyed nor enforced. Bill -- My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB |
#25
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Chris B. wrote:
Frank, why did you remove the cross post? It is very much on topic for ont.bicycle. Because my system won't let me post there. When I try, the entire post hangs. I agree it's very much on topic there. Feel free to copy. -- --------------------+ Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com, replace with cc.ysu dot edu] |
#26
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Chris Phillipo wrote:
That had nothing to do with the point of my post but I'm sure that this bill, like almost all others, has no provision in it for extra law enforment spending. Which means, of course, that any time the cops give to enforcing it is time taken away from real productive activity. -- --------------------+ Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com, replace with cc.ysu dot edu] |
#27
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Ken [NY) wrote:
To the fellow who was thinking about fleeing to Canada from the horrors of Bush's low tax rates, you might want to think about this proposed law. But then, there's the opportunity to get free of Neanderthal right wingers and their simplistic "thinking." The choice isn't easy! Ah well. We're off topic, aren't we? -- --------------------+ Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com, replace with cc.ysu dot edu] |
#28
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On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:08:50 +0000, Chris Phillipo wrote:
In article , bikerider@-no- spam-thanks-rogers.com says... I wonder why. Are you aware that mandatory helmet laws implemented in Alberta, Nova Scotia, New Zealand and parts of Australia have not only not shown benefits but have actually had negative effects (decreased numbers of cyclists in all cases and sometimes an increase in the rate of head injury after the law is enacted)? Ho hum, that would be a neat trick considering the helmet laws are not even enforced outside of Halifax in Nova Scotia. Which makes me think the rest of these "statitics" are in quesiton. In New Zealand the law is savagely and ferociously enforced. Between 1994 (law begin) and now: Reduction in numbers of bicyclists 34% Reduction in numbers of children bicycling 80% Reduction in numbers of women bicycling 90% Reduction in head injuries, deaths 19% Peter -- If you are careful enough in life, nothing bad -- or good -- will ever happen to you. |
#29
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Bob Burns Wrote: ... I always wear a helmet. I destroyed one a month ago in a crash- and walked away. it will not prevent all injuries, but it improves your odds of walking away. That said, not sure I want a law mandating helmets. Here in PA they just repealed the motorcycle helmet law. -- Bob Burns Mill Hall PA So Bob, it improves your odds of walking away huh? Well I have a question for you (actually it more of a challenge than a question - an epistemological challenge). How would you know that? That's the crux question, Bob. See you don't know that wearing a helmet improves you odds of walking away. Indeed you're not alone in believing it, but just cause a lot of people all believe something doesn't make it true. The evidence suggests that the belief that a helmet will improve your odds of walking away is an illusion, an enticing illusion that a lot of people willingly buy into and, even worse tend to become advocates for and expouse fervently. There's the problem - people erroneously believe that helmets make a substantial and worthwile difference when they in fact don't and then the emphasis that is given to wearing helmets takes priority and the place of other *real* safety initiatives and improvements that could be made for us cyclists. The bottom line is that those cyclists among us who bang on about the "vital need" for helmets are doing Cycling a grave disservice. Something like sucking a dummy, but worse. It's hard enough trying to get respect, care and consideration from motorists as it is without some of our number bleating on about our need to wear poly-bonnets which which aren't worth a pinch of s_ _ t. Roger -- RogerDodger |
#30
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On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 21:25:14 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote: Chris B. wrote: Frank, why did you remove the cross post? It is very much on topic for ont.bicycle. Because my system won't let me post there. When I try, the entire post hangs. I agree it's very much on topic there. Feel free to copy. I hadn't even considered that, sorry. I must say, I'm not usually so provincial. -- "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber-barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber- baron's cruelty may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis |
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