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10sp shimano cassette on 9sp alloy (Bontrager) hub
Hello, I've got a Trek Madone 5.2 "project one" with Ultegra 10sp (2005), and it shipped with some unusual wheels - the stickers on the wheels say Race-lite but they're 16 spoke, so I think they may be race-lite aeros or some other mutant. Anyway, nice wheels, fast, light and plenty stiff, I've put 7,000km on them and they're solid and true and roll as nicely as anything I've ever ridden on ... But! The freehub body is alloy, and it's 9sp, not 10sp - when I pulled the 12-25 off to whack on a 12-27 for some big hills around here we (I work p/t at my LBS) found that there was the 1mm spacer used for fitting 10sp cassettes on 9sp hubs. The cassette was very difficult to remove as it had dug into the hub and we had to make up a tool to unwind it out of the hub. Not good! There's 1mm or so deep gouges in the hub where the sprockets have dug into it. Looking through Sheldon's pages, I note that he says that one should not fit a 10sp cassette on a 9sp dura-ace hub as it's alloy (the hub body) but that it's ok with Ultegra 9sp hubs. I assume this is because the Ultegra hub body (proper name is?) is steel. Presumably the 10sp hub has a better fit to the cassette so it doesn't have such high pressure points? I'd expect that the same should apply to the Bontrager hub? Ie: Trek should not have supplied that hub with that cassette? We're getting in touch with Trek Australia to confirm that this is a mistake, but can anyone here confirm that Trek should not have shipped that hub with this bike? I'm 90% sure it's a mistake on their (Trek) part, but would appreciate any confirmation from anyone here with a bit more experience with this kind of thing. |
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#2
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10sp shimano cassette on 9sp alloy (Bontrager) hub
wrote in message oups.com... Hello, I've got a Trek Madone 5.2 "project one" with Ultegra 10sp (2005), and it shipped with some unusual wheels - the stickers on the wheels say Race-lite but they're 16 spoke, so I think they may be race-lite aeros or some other mutant. Anyway, nice wheels, fast, light and plenty stiff, I've put 7,000km on them and they're solid and true and roll as nicely as anything I've ever ridden on ... But! The freehub body is alloy, and it's 9sp, not 10sp - when I pulled the 12-25 off to whack on a 12-27 for some big hills around here we (I work p/t at my LBS) found that there was the 1mm spacer used for fitting 10sp cassettes on 9sp hubs. The cassette was very difficult to remove as it had dug into the hub and we had to make up a tool to unwind it out of the hub. Not good! There's 1mm or so deep gouges in the hub where the sprockets have dug into it. Looking through Sheldon's pages, I note that he says that one should not fit a 10sp cassette on a 9sp dura-ace hub as it's alloy (the hub body) but that it's ok with Ultegra 9sp hubs. I assume this is because the Ultegra hub body (proper name is?) is steel. Presumably the 10sp hub has a better fit to the cassette so it doesn't have such high pressure points? I'd expect that the same should apply to the Bontrager hub? Ie: Trek should not have supplied that hub with that cassette? We're getting in touch with Trek Australia to confirm that this is a mistake, but can anyone here confirm that Trek should not have shipped that hub with this bike? I'm 90% sure it's a mistake on their (Trek) part, but would appreciate any confirmation from anyone here with a bit more experience with this kind of thing. I don't think you'll get far IMHO. Lots of 'boutique' wheels for years have come with aluminium casette splines to be able to produce fancy lightweight hoops. (My Zipps included). Both 9 and 10sp casettes gouge into them with heavy use, especially casettes with individual cogs (ie ultegra and dura-ace). Shimano, in their attempt to keep up the weight battle, made their first Al freehub with the 10spd hubs, and in an effort to reduce the gouging made the splines taller... so a 8spd or 9 spd hub will take a 8, 9, or 10spd cassette, but a 10 spd casette (with its high splines) will not accept a 8 or 9 spd casette. So why would a boutique wheelbuilder (ie bontrager) make a 10spd wheel, when a 9spd one will suit anyone...... I woudn't worry about the gouges, they seem to reach a point and never get any worse - does make it tricky to get cassettes off though. just my $0.02 worth. Gemma |
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10sp shimano cassette on 9sp alloy (Bontrager) hub
sorry about the dupe ... google groups was playing up and I didn't know
that this had actually made it. Please don't bother replying to this thread! |
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10sp shimano cassette on 9sp alloy (Bontrager) hub
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10sp shimano cassette on 9sp alloy (Bontrager) hub
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#6
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10sp shimano cassette on 9sp alloy (Bontrager) hub
carl.I.brewer wrote:
Looking through Sheldon's pages, I note that he says that one should not fit a 10sp cassette on a 9sp dura-ace hub as it's alloy (the hub body) but that it's ok with Ultegra 9sp hubs. I assume this is because the Ultegra hub body (proper name is?) is steel. I don't believe I ever said that. So-called "9-speed" Dura-Ace hubs have steel Freehub bodies, only off-brand "9-speed" hubs have alumin(i)um ("alloy") bodies. If you really did find this error on one of my 2,000+ pages, please email me with the URL so I can correct it. The _10-speed_ Dura-Ace hub does have a titanium body, which has extra tall splines to make it stronger (and also to preclude you from installing steel sprockets that could damage it.) http://sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace Sheldon "9? Nein!" Brown +------------------------------------------+ | Athletic scholarships are a corrupting | | cancer on the U.S. educational system. | +------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com |
#7
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10sp shimano cassette on 9sp alloy (Bontrager) hub
Sheldon Brown wrote: carl.I.brewer wrote: Looking through Sheldon's pages, I note that he says that one should not fit a 10sp cassette on a 9sp dura-ace hub as it's alloy (the hub body) but that it's ok with Ultegra 9sp hubs. I assume this is because the Ultegra hub body (proper name is?) is steel. I don't believe I ever said that. So-called "9-speed" Dura-Ace hubs have steel Freehub bodies, only off-brand "9-speed" hubs have alumin(i)um ("alloy") bodies. This is what is on your site (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html): The Dura-Ace 7800 rear hub has an aluminum Freehub body to save weight. Other manufacturers have used aluminum Freehub bodies, and it has been a problem because the steel sprockets can cut notches into the splines of such a soft material. To avoid this problem, Shimano has made the first change in their spline pattern since the introduction of Hyperglide in the late '80s. Dura-Ace 10 freehubs have taller splines than other Shimano models. As a result, it is not possible to install cassettes other than 10-speed models on Dura-Ace 7800 hubs. It is not, however necessary to use Dura-Ace 10 speed cassettes. The Ultegra 10 speed cassettes also accommodate the taller splines of the 7800 hubs. Did the 9sp D-A hubs have Al alloy freehubs and they learnt from the mistake for 10sp? It's academic anyway, but my apologies for mis-interpreting your article. If you really did find this error on one of my 2,000+ pages, please email me with the URL so I can correct it. The _10-speed_ Dura-Ace hub does have a titanium body, which has extra tall splines to make it stronger (and also to preclude you from installing steel sprockets that could damage it.) Titanium or Al Alloy? They're both soft |
#8
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10sp shimano cassette on 9sp alloy (Bontrager) hub
carl.I.brewer wrote:
Looking through Sheldon's pages, I note that he says that one should not fit a 10sp cassette on a 9sp dura-ace hub as it's alloy (the hub body) but that it's ok with Ultegra 9sp hubs. I assume this is because the Ultegra hub body (proper name is?) is steel. I replied: I don't believe I ever said that. So-called "9-speed" Dura-Ace hubs have steel Freehub bodies, Actually that was not correct. The _Dura-Ace_ 9-speed had a titanium Freehub body. only off-brand "9-speed" hubs have alumin(i)um ("alloy") bodies. Bleve wrote: This is what is on your site (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html): The Dura-Ace 7800 rear hub has an aluminum Freehub body to save weight. Other manufacturers have used aluminum Freehub bodies, and it has been a problem because the steel sprockets can cut notches into the splines of such a soft material. Right. The 7800 is the "10-speed" model. To avoid this problem, Shimano has made the first change in their spline pattern since the introduction of Hyperglide in the late '80s. Dura-Ace 10 freehubs have taller splines than other Shimano models. As a result, it is not possible to install cassettes other than 10-speed models on Dura-Ace 7800 hubs. It is not, however necessary to use Dura-Ace 10 speed cassettes. The Ultegra 10 speed cassettes also accommodate the taller splines of the 7800 hubs. Did the 9sp D-A hubs have Al alloy freehubs and they learnt from the mistake for 10sp? It's academic anyway, but my apologies for mis-interpreting your article. No, Shimano never did an aluminum Freehub body before, but a number of off brand "boutique" hubs did try this. I remember having this problem with some horrible, very overpriced Ringlé hubs a while back. If you really did find this error on one of my 2,000+ pages, please email me with the URL so I can correct it. The _10-speed_ Dura-Ace hub does have a titanium body, which has extra tall splines to make it stronger (and also to preclude you from installing steel sprockets that could damage it.) Titanium or Al Alloy? They're both soft "9-speed" (7700) is titanium; "10-speed" (7800) is alumin(i)um. Titanium is MUCH harder than alumin(i)um. Sheldon "Wouldn't Buy A Hub With An Al Freehub Body" Brown +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | You will hear people say, “Our country, right or wrong,” | | but that is a false patriotism and bad Americanism. | | When our country is wrong she is worse than other countries | | when they are wrong, for she has more light than other | | countries, and we somehow ought to make her feel that we | | are sorry and ashamed for her. --William Dean Howells, 1912 | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com |
#9
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10sp shimano cassette on 9sp alloy (Bontrager) hub
Sheldon Brown wrote: carl.I.brewer wrote: Looking through Sheldon's pages, I note that he says that one should not fit a 10sp cassette on a 9sp dura-ace hub as it's alloy (the hub body) but that it's ok with Ultegra 9sp hubs. I assume this is because the Ultegra hub body (proper name is?) is steel. I replied: I don't believe I ever said that. So-called "9-speed" Dura-Ace hubs have steel Freehub bodies, Actually that was not correct. The _Dura-Ace_ 9-speed had a titanium Freehub body. No worries only off-brand "9-speed" hubs have alumin(i)um ("alloy") bodies. Bleve wrote: This is what is on your site (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html): The Dura-Ace 7800 rear hub has an aluminum Freehub body to save weight. Other manufacturers have used aluminum Freehub bodies, and it has been a problem because the steel sprockets can cut notches into the splines of such a soft material. Right. The 7800 is the "10-speed" model. Yep. Noted. To avoid this problem, Shimano has made the first change in their spline pattern since the introduction of Hyperglide in the late '80s. Dura-Ace 10 freehubs have taller splines than other Shimano models. As a result, it is not possible to install cassettes other than 10-speed models on Dura-Ace 7800 hubs. It is not, however necessary to use Dura-Ace 10 speed cassettes. The Ultegra 10 speed cassettes also accommodate the taller splines of the 7800 hubs. Did the 9sp D-A hubs have Al alloy freehubs and they learnt from the mistake for 10sp? It's academic anyway, but my apologies for mis-interpreting your article. No, Shimano never did an aluminum Freehub body before, but a number of off brand "boutique" hubs did try this. I remember having this problem with some horrible, very overpriced Ringlé hubs a while back. So it's fair to say then, that AL Alloy is not really suitable for "standard" 9 speed applications, and is only suitable for 10sp if and only if it's the new 10sp pattern? Would that be a pretty good summary? If you really did find this error on one of my 2,000+ pages, please email me with the URL so I can correct it. The _10-speed_ Dura-Ace hub does have a titanium body, which has extra tall splines to make it stronger (and also to preclude you from installing steel sprockets that could damage it.) Titanium or Al Alloy? They're both soft "9-speed" (7700) is titanium; "10-speed" (7800) is alumin(i)um. Titanium is MUCH harder than alumin(i)um. Sheldon "Wouldn't Buy A Hub With An Al Freehub Body" Brown Neither would I, given hindsight Any reports on how the 10sp Al D-A freehub is holding up? I was talking to a friend tonight who has also just jumped from 9sp to 10sp, and he has an American Classic wheelset, also Al Alloy freehub, and he reported the same problem - very difficult to remove the 10sp cassette after significant digin. His had done some 1,000km (not many). He's a big lad and is doing a lot of sprint training, thus putting a lot of pressure on the 12,13,14 and 15 tooth sprockets (all single, not on carriers, so all high-pressure) Perhaps current 10sp Shimano Ultegra cassettes are just not suitable on 9sp pattern Al alloy hubs at all? If that's the case, and now I have two examples of this, then I'd say it's fair to suggest that Trek has shipped a part with my bike that is not suitable for it. What's your opinion Sheldon? Also, he (my friend) noticed that the 10sp sprockets don't line up with all the splines on the 9sp freehub, but that his 9sp cassette sprockets did.I'm not refering to the depth of the spline holes, which we know are different to allow the cassette to fit on the deeper 10sp specific dura-ace freehub. This would also add to the pressure on the remaining splines. I don't have one of each 9sp and 10sp sprocket handy to compare, but it's consistant with my memory of fitting my 12-27 Ultegra cassette, but, that's from memory, it was late and we were in a hurry after a 5 min job (swapping cassettes) had already taken an hour, so my memory may be misleading. |
#10
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10sp shimano cassette on 9sp alloy (Bontrager) hub
wrote in message ups.com... Neither would I, given hindsight Any reports on how the 10sp Al D-A freehub is holding up? I was talking to a friend tonight who has also just jumped from 9sp to 10sp, and he has an American Classic wheelset, also Al Alloy freehub, and he reported the same problem - very difficult to remove the 10sp cassette after significant digin. His had done some 1,000km (not many). He's a big lad and is doing a lot of sprint training, thus putting a lot of pressure on the 12,13,14 and 15 tooth sprockets (all single, not on carriers, so all high-pressure) Perhaps current 10sp Shimano Ultegra cassettes are just not suitable on 9sp pattern Al alloy hubs at all? If that's the case, and now I have two examples of this, then I'd say it's fair to suggest that Trek has shipped a part with my bike that is not suitable for it. What's your opinion Sheldon? Also, he (my friend) noticed that the 10sp sprockets don't line up with all the splines on the 9sp freehub, but that his 9sp cassette sprockets did.I'm not refering to the depth of the spline holes, which we know are different to allow the cassette to fit on the deeper 10sp specific dura-ace freehub. This would also add to the pressure on the remaining splines. I don't have one of each 9sp and 10sp sprocket handy to compare, but it's consistant with my memory of fitting my 12-27 Ultegra cassette, but, that's from memory, it was late and we were in a hurry after a 5 min job (swapping cassettes) had already taken an hour, so my memory may be misleading. Carl, I've noted the same wear on an american classic freehub using an ultegra 9spd cassette after about 8 thousand km. I swapped cassettes a few times so I just lightly filed the burrs on the splines each time to ease fitment and it's never been a big problem. It must just be those big guns of yours giving it hell I then went to 10 speed but Campag, not Shimano so I can't check the spline alignment for you with a 10sp shimano cassette sorry. I was curious about the wear so I pulled the cassette and the campag freehub has next to no wear after a similar amount of kilometres but it has a coarser spline with only 4 large "slots". I can post a photo if you like. So I guess I'm saying that 9sp ultegra cassette on a 9sp aluminium freehub was ok, but not great. Adam (not starting a campag/shimano war) |
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