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CycloCross: Dismount/Run vs Jump?
[Crossposted into rbr since it seemed appropriate]
On Jan 31, 1:28*pm, Chalo wrote: Keiron wrote: Tim McNamara wrote: *Many 'cross course designers (those who understand the difference between a 'cross course and a MTB course) try to place barricades in such as way as to minimize this advantage. What are the principal differences in course design between [cyclocross] and mtb?? Cyclocross has a long tradition of using the wrong tool for the job, which for decades was uninterrupted because there were so few people who thought it a good idea to ride any kind of bike in the freezing mud during winter. When MTBs arose, they turned out to be unbeatably better at riding cross-country on unprepared surfaces than any sort of road bike with knobbies. *Cyclocross being enamored of its long tradition of using the wrong tool for the job, its organizers made two changes to ensure the place of the road bike in this off-road sport. First, they banned tires more than 35mm wide, because wide tires work a _lot_ better on cruddy surfaces such as dirt, mud, and rocks. Allowing appropriate tires for conditions would give an insurmountable advantage to bikes that can fit appropriate tires (which traditional 'cross bikes cannot). Second, CX courses began to focus on features like steep rough climbs without reasonable approaches, short fences, sand pits, stairs, and other such things that make it more practical to tote your bike as luggage while you waddle through or over them rather than riding through them. *This gave a small but significant advantage to bikes that are better at being carried than being ridden in those conditions. I think that the evolution of cyclocross course design that you are talking about may describe what happened in the US rather than what happened in Europe, and the driving force was not be trying to weed out MTBs but trying to move towards courses after the European style. For an example of what I'm talking about, see this archived discussion between Jeff Clark and Casey Kerrigan on the history of Norcal CX course design: http://web.archive.org/web/200503251.../surfhist..htm The Euro-influence discussion is after the recollections of Bob Leibold jungle-cross courses, skip down to where Jeff says: "The turning point for me was in '93 or '94 when I saw my first world championship video. I don't remember the location of the event, but it was an eye-opener. The start was crit-style on pavement, and the group stayed together for the first several laps. There were wide straightaways & turns, with groups of riders negotiating 20' wide obstacles at speed. ..." "The SCCX transition to the "euro" style was a result of the need to give the riders more room, and the pie-the-sky desire to provide more adequate training for international competition. " Now of course, maybe the Euros had changed their courses to weed out pernicious MTBs. But I doubt it. Riding MTBs in cross races has usually been okay in non-UCI races in the US, but I don't think it was ever a factor in Europe, where cross is a professional sport rather than grass-roots and at-best-semi-pro as it is here. When we talk about the evolution to "Euro-style" courses, it's not the introduction of dismounts. Dismounts were part of cross long before MTBs. It's more the wider courses and faster sections. This changes the race, and the primary effect is not strictly an equipment issue of disfavoring MTBs. In jungle-cross or MTB racing courses, opportunities to pass slower riders are rare, and there's rarely a benefit to drafting. In a wider, faster course, it's easier to pass (this is one reason larger turnouts forced wider courses), and drafting and tactics - will riders work together or attack each other? - play a role. The top-grade cyclocross racers are great bike handlers and it is often surprising what they can ride on road bikes with comparatively skinny tires. In a section where you and I might see a benefit to MTBs, they don't need them. In local races where people can choose their bike and the course is often more jungley than Euro-style, the fastest people almost always ride CX bikes. (The one exception I knew in Norcal was "Mountain Larry" Hibbard.) Ben P.S. One minor nitpick. Wider tires are often better on loose surfaces and gravel, but not on mud. A lot of expert racers will tell you that fat tires tend to slide around on mud while moderate-width CX tires cut through or compress it down enough to ride on. In my inexpert experience, they have a point. |
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CycloCross: Dismount/Run vs Jump?
On Jan 31, 9:51*pm, "
wrote: P.S. One minor nitpick. *Wider tires are often better on loose surfaces and gravel, but not on mud. *A lot of expert racers will tell you that fat tires tend to slide around on mud while moderate-width CX tires cut through or compress it down enough to ride on. In my inexpert experience, they have a point. This is true of deep sand too. We do cx races at Boulder Reservoir that usually include a deep sandy beach descent. A friend of mine with significant MTB racing experience switched from a cross bike to an MTB mid-race due to a mechanical and mentioned afterward how badly the MTB floundered in the deep sand. More generally, lots of MTB folk enter the sport with a MTB or a cross bike with flat bars and eventually move to a more appropriate drop bar bike bike when they realize the disadvantage. Bret |
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CycloCross: Dismount/Run vs Jump?
On Jan 31, 9:51*pm, "
wrote: the fastest people almost always ride CX bikes. *(The one exception I knew in Norcal was "Mountain Larry" Hibbard.) I did a Central Coast with Larry and was very impressed. CO's answer to Larry is Travis Brown. http://tinyurl.com/ddthdf Bret |
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CycloCross: Dismount/Run vs Jump?
Bret wrote:
Ben wrote: Wider tires are often better on loose surfaces and gravel, but not on mud. *A lot of expert racers will tell you that fat tires tend to slide around on mud while moderate-width CX tires cut through or compress it down enough to ride on. In my inexpert experience, they have a point. This is true of deep sand *too. We do cx races at Boulder Reservoir that usually include a deep sandy beach descent. A friend of mine with significant MTB racing experience switched from a cross bike to an MTB mid-race due to a mechanical and mentioned afterward how badly the MTB floundered in the deep sand. My own experience with deep dry sand and gravel (in local playgrounds and Gulf Coast beaches) is that my MTB with 3" tires consumes prodigious amounts of my muscle power digging its way through, but my street bikes with 32-40mm tires are more likely to stop dead in their tracks. I avoid riding my bikes in mud like I avoid bashing them with things that would leave dents, or like I avoid hacking rocks with my kitchen knives. My limited experience with mud in the street suggests that fat tires, skinny tires, and my shoes will all slide on it when I would rather they didn't. Chalo |
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CycloCross: Dismount/Run vs Jump?
On Feb 1, 12:35*am, Bret wrote:
On Jan 31, 9:51*pm, " wrote: the fastest people almost always ride CX bikes. *(The one exception I knew in Norcal was "Mountain Larry" Hibbard.) I did a Central Coast with Larry and was very impressed. CO's answer to Larry is Travis Brown. http://tinyurl.com/ddthdf Bret Is that picture typical of cross races where you live? The whole idea of a cross race interests me, except for the mud part. I hear guys all the time talking about slipping, sliding, muddy circles in describing cross tracks. I'd rather not feel the need to rebuild my bike after ever race, and the only bike I have that I wouldn't rebuild after such a race is my cheap-o rigid SS 29er. Problem is, I can't even hop on that bike. The course you in that picture looks like it would be real fast on my 26"MTB, or maybe even a tall geared BMX. Do they allow BMX bikes in amature races? Are there any with few enough fast sections (20MPH+ maybe? been a while since I clocked myself on a BMX) that a BMX might be competitive? I can't hop anything with drop bars more than a couple inches, but I can ride my BMX over/up most things, even if it involves casing a rear wheel. |
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CycloCross: Dismount/Run vs Jump?
On Feb 1, 8:23*am, " wrote:
On Feb 1, 12:35*am, Bret wrote: On Jan 31, 9:51*pm, " wrote: the fastest people almost always ride CX bikes. *(The one exception I knew in Norcal was "Mountain Larry" Hibbard.) I did a Central Coast with Larry and was very impressed. CO's answer to Larry is Travis Brown. http://tinyurl.com/ddthdf Bret Is that picture typical of cross races where you live? *The whole idea of a cross race interests me, except for the mud part. *I hear guys all the time talking about slipping, sliding, muddy circles in describing cross tracks. *I'd rather not feel the need to rebuild my bike after ever race, and the only bike I have that I wouldn't rebuild after such a race is my cheap-o rigid SS 29er. *Problem is, I can't even hop on that bike. The course you in that picture looks like it would be real fast on my 26"MTB, or maybe even a tall geared BMX. *Do they allow BMX bikes in amature races? *Are there any with few enough fast sections (20MPH+ maybe? *been a while since I clocked myself on a BMX) that a BMX might be competitive? *I can't hop anything with drop bars more than a couple inches, but I can ride my BMX over/up most things, even if it involves casing a rear wheel. I just realized that was a set of pictures and scrolled through them all. Definitely too fast for a BMX, but it looks like it'd be pretty quick on a MTB, especially if that enabled you to jump more of the barriers. Is there some sort of penalty (besides the chance of a pinch flat) if you hit one of these? http://tinyurl.com/d24lxs Do they get knocked over, or are they solid? Are you DQd? Penalized a lap? I always pictured cross races to look like the top picture here http://tinyurl.com/bk3tkh I just don't want to do that to a decent bike with gears and whatnot, and wouldn't want to race on a beater SS. |
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CycloCross: Dismount/Run vs Jump?
On Feb 1, 6:30*am, " wrote:
On Feb 1, 8:23*am, " wrote: On Feb 1, 12:35*am, Bret wrote: On Jan 31, 9:51*pm, " wrote: the fastest people almost always ride CX bikes. *(The one exception I knew in Norcal was "Mountain Larry" Hibbard.) I did a Central Coast with Larry and was very impressed. CO's answer to Larry is Travis Brown. http://tinyurl.com/ddthdf Bret Is that picture typical of cross races where you live? *The whole idea of a cross race interests me, except for the mud part. *I hear guys all the time talking about slipping, sliding, muddy circles in describing cross tracks. *I'd rather not feel the need to rebuild my bike after ever race, and the only bike I have that I wouldn't rebuild after such a race is my cheap-o rigid SS 29er. *Problem is, I can't even hop on that bike. The course you in that picture looks like it would be real fast on my 26"MTB, or maybe even a tall geared BMX. *Do they allow BMX bikes in amature races? *Are there any with few enough fast sections (20MPH+ maybe? *been a while since I clocked myself on a BMX) that a BMX might be competitive? *I can't hop anything with drop bars more than a couple inches, but I can ride my BMX over/up most things, even if it involves casing a rear wheel. I just realized that was a set of pictures and scrolled through them all. *Definitely too fast for a BMX, but it looks like it'd be pretty quick on a MTB, especially if that enabled you to jump more of the barriers. *Is there some sort of penalty (besides the chance of a pinch flat) if you hit one of these? *http://tinyurl.com/d24lxs Do they get knocked over, or are they solid? *Are you DQd? *Penalized a lap? No penalty unless you ride around them. Bunny hopping is an option. I always pictured cross races to look like the top picture herehttp://tinyurl.com/bk3tkh The CO frontrange has a dry climate and so many of our races are dry. We do occasionally have a lot of snow and/or mud. I just don't want to do that to a decent bike with gears and whatnot, and wouldn't want to race on a beater SS. You just take the bike to a car wash or use a hose at home. Having more than one chain and a parts cleaner helps too. There's room for a lot of variety in cx course design. The Rad Racing GP in Lakewood, WA is an example of a great course design with an outstanding feature, an 80m run-up. Check the video at the link below. The run-up is at 1:30. http://radgp.radracingnw.org/ I do use a MTB if the course warrants but that's a rare occurrence any more. There's been a steady trend towards faster cross bike friendly courses since I started doing cross twenty years ago. Bret |
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CycloCross: Dismount/Run vs Jump?
In article
, Chalo wrote: Bret wrote: Ben wrote: Wider tires are often better on loose surfaces and gravel, but not on mud. *A lot of expert racers will tell you that fat tires tend to slide around on mud while moderate-width CX tires cut through or compress it down enough to ride on. In my inexpert experience, they have a point. This is true of deep sand *too. We do cx races at Boulder Reservoir that usually include a deep sandy beach descent. A friend of mine with significant MTB racing experience switched from a cross bike to an MTB mid-race due to a mechanical and mentioned afterward how badly the MTB floundered in the deep sand. My own experience with deep dry sand and gravel (in local playgrounds and Gulf Coast beaches) is that my MTB with 3" tires consumes prodigious amounts of my muscle power digging its way through, but my street bikes with 32-40mm tires are more likely to stop dead in their tracks. Hard to say, but you might want to watch some Euro-pro CX videos. There's a few sand-centric races every year that feature riders powering through the sand with their 32mm tires. I avoid riding my bikes in mud like I avoid bashing them with things that would leave dents, or like I avoid hacking rocks with my kitchen knives. My limited experience with mud in the street suggests that fat tires, skinny tires, and my shoes will all slide on it when I would rather they didn't. Very open tread compounds are the key, but all mud is not created equal. The mud here in the PNW tends to clear from reasonable tires fairly easily. I have heard tales of clay-based muds that pack onto every surface of the bike, never leave, and harden there. That sort of thing might change my attitudes to riding in the mud. -- Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/ "In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls." "In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them." |
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CycloCross: Dismount/Run vs Jump?
In article
, " wrote: On Feb 1, 8:23*am, " wrote: On Feb 1, 12:35*am, Bret wrote: On Jan 31, 9:51*pm, " wrote: the fastest people almost always ride CX bikes. *(The one exception I knew in Norcal was "Mountain Larry" Hibbard.) I did a Central Coast with Larry and was very impressed. CO's answer to Larry is Travis Brown. http://tinyurl.com/ddthdf Bret Is that picture typical of cross races where you live? *The whole idea of a cross race interests me, except for the mud part. *I hear guys all the time talking about slipping, sliding, muddy circles in describing cross tracks. *I'd rather not feel the need to rebuild my bike after ever race, and the only bike I have that I wouldn't rebuild after such a race is my cheap-o rigid SS 29er. *Problem is, I can't even hop on that bike. The course you in that picture looks like it would be real fast on my 26"MTB, or maybe even a tall geared BMX. *Do they allow BMX bikes in amature races? *Are there any with few enough fast sections (20MPH+ maybe? *been a while since I clocked myself on a BMX) that a BMX might be competitive? *I can't hop anything with drop bars more than a couple inches, but I can ride my BMX over/up most things, even if it involves casing a rear wheel. I just realized that was a set of pictures and scrolled through them all. Definitely too fast for a BMX, but it looks like it'd be pretty quick on a MTB, especially if that enabled you to jump more of the barriers. Is there some sort of penalty (besides the chance of a pinch flat) if you hit one of these? http://tinyurl.com/d24lxs Do they get knocked over, or are they solid? Are you DQd? Penalized a lap? http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos.ph.../XilinxCX/21xl nx_cross_102603_21 Those barriers are limited to a max height of 40cm by CX course design standards. Those vertical supports you can see are pieces of rebar which then sink a foot or more into the ground, whatever is necessary to keep them upright despite occasional (or frequent) impacts from clumsy riders. They're intended to be perfectly rigid. There would be no penalty for knocking them over in the normal course of the race. You can ride them if you are able, but organizers often try to make that harder by putting the barriers closer together or putting three in a row. These ones are about the widest-spaced set of doubles I've seen. These barriers are a mainstay of amateur CX racing because they're easy to set up and easy to move. In the pro level, barriers are much rarer, partly because they're not that hard for pros to ride. Stairs and steep, loose-traction run-ups are most common Euro-pro obstacles that are intended to force dismounts. I always pictured cross races to look like the top picture here http://tinyurl.com/bk3tkh I just don't want to do that to a decent bike with gears and whatnot, and wouldn't want to race on a beater SS. That picture is from a road race (Paris-Roubaix). Conditions in CX races can be much worse. -- Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/ "In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls." "In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them." |
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CycloCross: Dismount/Run vs Jump?
" writes:
I just realized that was a set of pictures and scrolled through them all. Definitely too fast for a BMX, but it looks like it'd be pretty quick on a MTB, especially if that enabled you to jump more of the barriers. Is there some sort of penalty (besides the chance of a pinch flat) if you hit one of these? http://tinyurl.com/d24lxs Do they get knocked over, or are they solid? Are you DQd? Penalized a lap? You usually crash. Hard. The barricades are usually solidly anchored. A point that should be made is that, as in all sports, there is an aesthetic and an etiquette. In cyclo-cross it is the use of a road-ish bike to do this stuff. |
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