Dealing with doping- A modest proposal

In article ,
"Tom Grosman" wrote:

The reason doping continues to go on despite everyone collectively agreeing
that it (or at least the scandals associated with it ) are greatly damaging
the sport is because on an indivual level those who dope have no incentive
to come clean about past doping activities unless they are caught, and in
fact have every incentive not to. Without an incentive to come clean, they
also have no incentive to give it up, especially the winners who dope, since
it may be or they may feel it is necessary for their success. And as long as
a non-trivial percentage of winners dope, doping will continue to be seen as
being needed to win, and will be widespread within the peloton. The whole
peloton has to reform at once, but each individual has to make that choice
for himself.

The best and most foolproof way to find people who are doping is is to get
them to confess to it. With that in mind, I propose a complete amnesty for
all past doping offenses as of Dec 31 2007. You get to keep riding, you get
to keep your trophys, you don't get sued by anybody BUT you have to give a
complete and detailed confession.

If you don't confess and it later comes out that you were doping before Dec
31 2007, you are banned for life from professional racing AND are open to
all legal penalties. If you are someone who confessed and you are found to
be doping again after Dec 31 2007, you get a stiffer sanction than someone
who had never doped (between double penalty and banned for life.)

With all the investigations, retroactive testing using newly invented tests,
tell-all books, people ratting each other out to save their skins, those
that are doping must be living in a continual fear that their number will
come up. In addition, I doubt that athletes WANT to dope, but they feel that
they HAVE to dope. Giving them a chance to turn the page and to do it as
part of the entire peloton, rather than just one person under the press's
microscope with only negative rewards for doing so may be the carrot and
stick necessary to finally put a significant bite into cycling's doping.

What do you get up to when nobody is watching? I offer you amnesty,
and I promise not to make fun of you.

It's like July. Doping stories bring out the witless mob.

--
Michael Press

On May 7, 12:48 pm, "Tom Grosman" wrote:
The reason doping continues to go on despite everyone collectively agreeing
that it (or at least the scandals associated with it ) are greatly damaging
the sport is because on an indivual level those who dope have no incentive
to come clean about past doping activities unless they are caught, and in
fact have every incentive not to. Without an incentive to come clean, they
also have no incentive to give it up, especially the winners who dope, since
it may be or they may feel it is necessary for their success. And as long as
a non-trivial percentage of winners dope, doping will continue to be seen as
being needed to win, and will be widespread within the peloton. The whole
peloton has to reform at once, but each individual has to make that choice
for himself.

The best and most foolproof way to find people who are doping is is to get
them to confess to it. With that in mind, I propose a complete amnesty for
all past doping offenses as of Dec 31 2007. You get to keep riding, you get
to keep your trophys, you don't get sued by anybody BUT you have to give a
complete and detailed confession.

If you don't confess and it later comes out that you were doping before Dec
31 2007, you are banned for life from professional racing AND are open to
all legal penalties. If you are someone who confessed and you are found to
be doping again after Dec 31 2007, you get a stiffer sanction than someone
who had never doped (between double penalty and banned for life.)

With all the investigations, retroactive testing using newly invented tests,
tell-all books, people ratting each other out to save their skins, those
that are doping must be living in a continual fear that their number will
come up. In addition, I doubt that athletes WANT to dope, but they feel that
they HAVE to dope. Giving them a chance to turn the page and to do it as
part of the entire peloton, rather than just one person under the press's
microscope with only negative rewards for doing so may be the carrot and
stick necessary to finally put a significant bite into cycling's doping.

-Tom

With that swiftian title, I thought you were going to recommend
feeding the offenders to the starving Irish; but the EU inspectors
probably would find them unfit for consumption by humans or livestock.

On May 7, 12:48 pm, "Tom Grosman" wrote:
The reason doping continues to go on despite everyone collectively agreeing
that it (or at least the scandals associated with it ) are greatly damaging
the sport is because on an indivual level those who dope have no incentive
to come clean about past doping activities unless they are caught, and in
fact have every incentive not to. Without an incentive to come clean, they
also have no incentive to give it up, especially the winners who dope, since
it may be or they may feel it is necessary for their success. And as long as
a non-trivial percentage of winners dope, doping will continue to be seen as
being needed to win, and will be widespread within the peloton. The whole
peloton has to reform at once, but each individual has to make that choice
for himself.

Dumbass,

The reason doping continues to go on is because on an
individual level, the people who benefit from doping are
the winning directeur sportifs and team sponsors, and they
have no incentive to give it up as long as they don't get
caught, and they never get caught because they aren't
actually doping. The worst that can happen to the DSes
is that their teams fall apart and they lose their jobs, but
they can usually get new jobs eventually because lots of
people know that that is how the game is played.

Increasing the punishment of the riders does nothing.
They can always find more riders. Punishing the team
sponsors doesn't help much because who would sign
on as a sponsor if you could be punished. The problem
persists because of the climate of uncertainty (asymmetrical
information, no one knows what anyone else is using) and
the culture of DSes, coaches, doctors, and hangers-on
that support it.

Ben

Michael Press wrote:
It's like July. Doping stories bring out the witless mob.

If quantities of people being exposed to LIVEDRUNK(tm) advertising is a
indicator of rbr success then doping stories are good for rbr. Ergo rbr
should sponsor doping. How about Fuentes Gynecology Clinic presented by
LIVEDRUNK/RBR or perhaps that isn't catchy enough.

wrote:
The problem
persists because of the climate of uncertainty (asymmetrical
information, no one knows what anyone else is using) and
the culture of DSes, coaches, doctors, and hangers-on
that support it.


Fuentes charged quite a lot for his services (€41,000 to Basso in 2004, according to CyclingNews), and his cyclists, at least those whom have been publicly identified, have been generally quite successful (only well-paid athletes can afford these fees, so there is a degree of circularity, but still). This suggests only a substantial minority have their Fuentes program. Perhaps doping is far more pervasive, but obviously doping a la Fuentes is a strong competitive advantage, not a ticket to play the game.

"Michael Press" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
| In article ,
| "Tom Grosman" wrote:
|
| The reason doping continues to go on despite everyone collectively
agreeing
| that it (or at least the scandals associated with it ) are greatly
damaging
| the sport is because on an indivual level those who dope have no
incentive
| to come clean about past doping activities unless they are caught, and
in
| fact have every incentive not to. Without an incentive to come clean,
they
| also have no incentive to give it up, especially the winners who dope,
since
| it may be or they may feel it is necessary for their success. And as
long as
| a non-trivial percentage of winners dope, doping will continue to be
seen as
| being needed to win, and will be widespread within the peloton. The
whole
| peloton has to reform at once, but each individual has to make that
choice
| for himself.
|
| The best and most foolproof way to find people who are doping is is to
get
| them to confess to it. With that in mind, I propose a complete amnesty
for
| all past doping offenses as of Dec 31 2007. You get to keep riding, you
get
| to keep your trophys, you don't get sued by anybody BUT you have to give
a
| complete and detailed confession.
|
| If you don't confess and it later comes out that you were doping before
Dec
| 31 2007, you are banned for life from professional racing AND are open
to
| all legal penalties. If you are someone who confessed and you are found
to
| be doping again after Dec 31 2007, you get a stiffer sanction than
someone
| who had never doped (between double penalty and banned for life.)
|
| With all the investigations, retroactive testing using newly invented
tests,
| tell-all books, people ratting each other out to save their skins, those
| that are doping must be living in a continual fear that their number
will
| come up. In addition, I doubt that athletes WANT to dope, but they feel
that
| they HAVE to dope. Giving them a chance to turn the page and to do it as
| part of the entire peloton, rather than just one person under the
press's
| microscope with only negative rewards for doing so may be the carrot and
| stick necessary to finally put a significant bite into cycling's doping.
|
| What do you get up to when nobody is watching? I offer you amnesty,
| and I promise not to make fun of you.
|

Riding a bike, for one thing.

| It's like July. Doping stories bring out the witless mob.
|
| --
| Michael Press

Whereas the clueless dumbasses will always be amongst us.

In article ,
Donald Munro wrote:

Michael Press wrote:
It's like July. Doping stories bring out the witless mob.

If quantities of people being exposed to LIVEDRUNK(tm) advertising is a
indicator of rbr success then doping stories are good for rbr. Ergo rbr
should sponsor doping. How about Fuentes Gynecology Clinic presented by
LIVEDRUNK/RBR or perhaps that isn't catchy enough.

Yes. I have been going about this all wrong.
That is why I am dedicating myself to
The Childrens Crusade For Better Chemistry.

--
Michael Press

On May 8, 8:32 pm, Michael Press wrote:


Yes. I have been going about this all wrong.
That is why I am dedicating myself to
The Childrens Crusade For Better Chemistry.

--
Michael Press

You're going to take up coaching Jr. High football in the south?
Bill C

On 8 May 2007 17:39:08 -0700, Bill C wrote:

On May 8, 8:32 pm, Michael Press wrote:


Yes. I have been going about this all wrong.
That is why I am dedicating myself to
The Childrens Crusade For Better Chemistry.

--
Michael Press

You're going to take up coaching Jr. High football in the south?

Ohio. We had guys doing steroids up there back in the early 70s.

Ron

Basso's "confession" goes to illustrate my point. As long as the penalties
for confessing are much greater than the advantages, it would be absolutely
stupid to think Basso would risk his Giro victory, GT podiums, and open
himself up to financial and legal liability by admitting to something that
can't be proven. Where's the incentive? To help clean up cycling? If he was
really concerned about doping in cycling he wouldn't have doped in the first
place.

BTW, The fact that Basso's idol was Claudio Chiappucci should have been a
clue.