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#11
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Habanero shows up curved stays
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 2:28:15 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 10:43:07 AM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote: ... My friend Doug has been riding a Teledyne Titan for more than 20 years. It finally cracked last summer where the downtube was swaged down to allow for the use of a derailleur lever clamp designs for non-OS steel frames. Darn shame, it was his favorite bike. The Teledyne was, IIRC, made from commercially pure titanium so that may be a factor- perhaps less fracture resistance than some of the other Ti alloys in use? Gads, he must have bought it used because they went out of production in '76. The thing is at least 40 years old. Not bad service. You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't know fashion back then. Perhaps they lacked the "complete machine shop" equipment needed to drill a hole in a tube? ;-) - Frank Krygowski |
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#12
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Habanero shows up curved stays
On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:28:11 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote: On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 10:43:07 AM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote: On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:51:25 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-03-30 23:37, John B. wrote: On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:37:06 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-03-30 07:31, wrote: Ok my Habby shows up and beautiful Ti. I got the model with the curved stays as opposed to straight. I was surprised by the large curves ... Until here I thought ... ahem ... about something similar to what Andrew thought :-) in chain and seat stays. Looks great have not had a chance to ride it but any wizards out there give me the dope on curved vs straight stays in a Titanium frame. Or any other for that matter. I looked at Bertrand's link and began to wonder why they are so much more expensive than the Ti cyclocrossers from BikesDirect. Those are between about $1500 and $2000 depending on how they are equipped. One reason might be that Titanium, isn't just one material. There are a myriad of different alloys and grades. In addition some alloys and grades are difficult to manufacture which might preclude the use as thin wall tubes.. As an example, one supplier lists 11 different grades of Ti tubes that are commonly used for aerospace and sports. One might procure the cheapest alloy or the most expensive and label each of them, honestly, as Titanium. Certainly true but my MTB buddy has a Titanium HT from BikesDirect that he beat the snot out of. That thing is indestructible. So their Titanium seems to be among the good stuff. Which doesn't surprise me because cheating there would very quickly destroy a reputation and then the business. The chief issue is whether the welding process is done correctly. If the weld is contaminated, it is more likely to fail. And like other materials, stress risers in the design must be avoided. My friend Doug has been riding a Teledyne Titan for more than 20 years. It finally cracked last summer where the downtube was swaged down to allow for the use of a derailleur lever clamp designs for non-OS steel frames. Darn shame, it was his favorite bike. The Teledyne was, IIRC, made from commercially pure titanium so that may be a factor- perhaps less fracture resistance than some of the other Ti alloys in use? Gads, he must have bought it used because they went out of production in '76. The thing is at least 40 years old. Not bad service. It didn't appear used; it was a job lot of bikes that appeared to have been in a bike shop that burned down- a bunch of 70s bikes, mostly Italian. Some of them had some scorched paint, melted saddles and cable housing, etc. Our guess was that it was an insurance salvage that had been sitting forgotten in a warehouse for a decade or two. But yeah, he got great service out of that bike. You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't know fashion back then. It seemed lke a weird solution at the time, too. Braze-ons for shift levers, cable stops, etc., were well known by then and might have been cheaper than the tube forming. |
#13
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Habanero shows up curved stays
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 11:37:37 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 2:28:15 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 10:43:07 AM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote: ... My friend Doug has been riding a Teledyne Titan for more than 20 years. It finally cracked last summer where the downtube was swaged down to allow for the use of a derailleur lever clamp designs for non-OS steel frames. Darn shame, it was his favorite bike. The Teledyne was, IIRC, made from commercially pure titanium so that may be a factor- perhaps less fracture resistance than some of the other Ti alloys in use? Gads, he must have bought it used because they went out of production in '76. The thing is at least 40 years old. Not bad service. You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't know fashion back then. Perhaps they lacked the "complete machine shop" equipment needed to drill a hole in a tube? ;-) - Frank Krygowski They would also need the advanced technology to build something futuristic like this: http://tinyurl.com/l5zqd7l or this http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/~2cAAO...xy/s-l1600.jpg I think the purpose of some olde tyme products was to make things difficult.. Why did it take so long to enlarge the caps on water bottles? Old school water bottles were so hard to clean, and the new Camelback bottles are so much easier to use, too. One way valves have been around forever. Gluing tires on a rim? Do you glue your car tires on the rim? Pffff. I remember building a pair of wheels for a guy with a Titan in Los Gatos. He wanted tied and soldered and wanted to make sure the hub labels read correctly -- so the "Campagnolo" was not upside down or inside out. I thought, "is this a trick question?" You can flip the front wheel, and there are no options for the rear wheel. I just nodded my head. Hell, I was the low-cost option and not an artiste. I actually did make sure that the spokes radiated correctly front and rear just so I didn't ruin the whole Titan feng shui thing -- although you probably couldn't read "Campagnolo" through the valve stem hole, which is the pinnacle of anal wheel building. If it were that big of a deal and I miss-oriented the hub, I suppose I could always drill a viewing hole. Look . . . Campagnolo! It's the best! -- Jay Beattie. |
#14
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Habanero shows up curved stays
On 3/31/2017 3:04 PM, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:28:11 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote: On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 10:43:07 AM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote: On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:51:25 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-03-30 23:37, John B. wrote: On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:37:06 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-03-30 07:31, wrote: Ok my Habby shows up and beautiful Ti. I got the model with the curved stays as opposed to straight. I was surprised by the large curves ... Until here I thought ... ahem ... about something similar to what Andrew thought :-) in chain and seat stays. Looks great have not had a chance to ride it but any wizards out there give me the dope on curved vs straight stays in a Titanium frame. Or any other for that matter. I looked at Bertrand's link and began to wonder why they are so much more expensive than the Ti cyclocrossers from BikesDirect. Those are between about $1500 and $2000 depending on how they are equipped. One reason might be that Titanium, isn't just one material. There are a myriad of different alloys and grades. In addition some alloys and grades are difficult to manufacture which might preclude the use as thin wall tubes.. As an example, one supplier lists 11 different grades of Ti tubes that are commonly used for aerospace and sports. One might procure the cheapest alloy or the most expensive and label each of them, honestly, as Titanium. Certainly true but my MTB buddy has a Titanium HT from BikesDirect that he beat the snot out of. That thing is indestructible. So their Titanium seems to be among the good stuff. Which doesn't surprise me because cheating there would very quickly destroy a reputation and then the business. The chief issue is whether the welding process is done correctly. If the weld is contaminated, it is more likely to fail. And like other materials, stress risers in the design must be avoided. My friend Doug has been riding a Teledyne Titan for more than 20 years. It finally cracked last summer where the downtube was swaged down to allow for the use of a derailleur lever clamp designs for non-OS steel frames. Darn shame, it was his favorite bike. The Teledyne was, IIRC, made from commercially pure titanium so that may be a factor- perhaps less fracture resistance than some of the other Ti alloys in use? Gads, he must have bought it used because they went out of production in '76. The thing is at least 40 years old. Not bad service. It didn't appear used; it was a job lot of bikes that appeared to have been in a bike shop that burned down- a bunch of 70s bikes, mostly Italian. Some of them had some scorched paint, melted saddles and cable housing, etc. Our guess was that it was an insurance salvage that had been sitting forgotten in a warehouse for a decade or two. But yeah, he got great service out of that bike. You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't know fashion back then. It seemed lke a weird solution at the time, too. Braze-ons for shift levers, cable stops, etc., were well known by then and might have been cheaper than the tube forming. Odd that Teledyne supplied 28.6mm top tube clips[1] but then necked the downtube from 31.8mm to 28.6. Shortly thereafter several manufacturers supplied oversized hardware for shift levers on alternate material frames. [1]This was back in the pre-ziptie world. We had French aluminum cable bands (slip through slot, fold back) and Terry's clips (some of which were elegantly designed) but zipties hadn't made the leap to bicycles. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#15
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Habanero shows up curved stays
On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:51:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote: On 2017-03-30 23:37, John B. wrote: On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:37:06 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-03-30 07:31, wrote: Ok my Habby shows up and beautiful Ti. I got the model with the curved stays as opposed to straight. I was surprised by the large curves ... Until here I thought ... ahem ... about something similar to what Andrew thought :-) in chain and seat stays. Looks great have not had a chance to ride it but any wizards out there give me the dope on curved vs straight stays in a Titanium frame. Or any other for that matter. I looked at Bertrand's link and began to wonder why they are so much more expensive than the Ti cyclocrossers from BikesDirect. Those are between about $1500 and $2000 depending on how they are equipped. One reason might be that Titanium, isn't just one material. There are a myriad of different alloys and grades. In addition some alloys and grades are difficult to manufacture which might preclude the use as thin wall tubes.. As an example, one supplier lists 11 different grades of Ti tubes that are commonly used for aerospace and sports. One might procure the cheapest alloy or the most expensive and label each of them, honestly, as Titanium. Certainly true but my MTB buddy has a Titanium HT from BikesDirect that he beat the snot out of. That thing is indestructible. So their Titanium seems to be among the good stuff. Which doesn't surprise me because cheating there would very quickly destroy a reputation and then the business. Unless it is some sort of mythical Titanium a steel bike would have been just as strong, and likely stronger. 4130 steel 560 0 675 MPa Titanium 344 MPa... I had a look at your Bikes Direct site and nowhere could I find a reference to the specific Titanium alloy that their bikes are made from. I would comment that after striping off the somewhat hysterical sales pitch the bikes look surprisingly like those offered on Alibaba at a noticeably cheaper price. -- Cheers, John B. |
#16
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Habanero shows up curved stays
On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:43:01 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote: On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:51:25 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-03-30 23:37, John B. wrote: On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:37:06 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-03-30 07:31, wrote: Ok my Habby shows up and beautiful Ti. I got the model with the curved stays as opposed to straight. I was surprised by the large curves ... Until here I thought ... ahem ... about something similar to what Andrew thought :-) in chain and seat stays. Looks great have not had a chance to ride it but any wizards out there give me the dope on curved vs straight stays in a Titanium frame. Or any other for that matter. I looked at Bertrand's link and began to wonder why they are so much more expensive than the Ti cyclocrossers from BikesDirect. Those are between about $1500 and $2000 depending on how they are equipped. One reason might be that Titanium, isn't just one material. There are a myriad of different alloys and grades. In addition some alloys and grades are difficult to manufacture which might preclude the use as thin wall tubes.. As an example, one supplier lists 11 different grades of Ti tubes that are commonly used for aerospace and sports. One might procure the cheapest alloy or the most expensive and label each of them, honestly, as Titanium. Certainly true but my MTB buddy has a Titanium HT from BikesDirect that he beat the snot out of. That thing is indestructible. So their Titanium seems to be among the good stuff. Which doesn't surprise me because cheating there would very quickly destroy a reputation and then the business. The chief issue is whether the welding process is done correctly. If the weld is contaminated, it is more likely to fail. I can't comment on what a specific manufacturer has done but my experience (certified titanium 1972) is that people who do this for a living are pretty careful about the welds. And, state of the art welding isn't partially difficult, nor overly costly. to do properly. Very similar to welding stainless actually :-) And like other materials, stress risers in the design must be avoided. My friend Doug has been riding a Teledyne Titan for more than 20 years. It finally cracked last summer where the downtube was swaged down to allow for the use of a derailleur lever clamp designs for non-OS steel frames. Darn shame, it was his favorite bike. The Teledyne was, IIRC, made from commercially pure titanium so that may be a factor- perhaps less fracture resistance than some of the other Ti alloys in use? Titanium can be silver brazed. Perhaps the down tube could have been repaired by sleeving. -- Cheers, John B. |
#17
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Habanero shows up curved stays
On 3/31/2017 4:25 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 11:37:37 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 2:28:15 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote: You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't know fashion back then. Perhaps they lacked the "complete machine shop" equipment needed to drill a hole in a tube? ;-) They would also need the advanced technology to build something futuristic like this: http://tinyurl.com/l5zqd7l Whoa! That's outer space alien technology! I think the purpose of some olde tyme products was to make things difficult. Why did it take so long to enlarge the caps on water bottles? I think that in the olden days (e.g. the 1970s) there was a lot more "design" done by just copying tradition. I suppose most of us here have anticipated future products by saying "Why doesn't anybody make..." about some perfectly obvious change. I assume component engineers had some of the same thoughts, but decided (or were told) "This is the way it's always been done." I remember talking to my bike shop buddies in the 1970s, saying someone should come out with special tooth profiles on rear cogs to make shifting easier. Eventually Shimano came out with twisted teeth, then teeth individually designed to aid the chain transfer between cogs. I remember building a pair of wheels for a guy with a Titan in Los Gatos. He wanted tied and soldered and wanted to make sure the hub labels read correctly -- so the "Campagnolo" was not upside down or inside out. I thought, "is this a trick question?" You can flip the front wheel, and there are no options for the rear wheel. I just nodded my head. Hell, I was the low-cost option and not an artiste. I actually did make sure that the spokes radiated correctly front and rear just so I didn't ruin the whole Titan feng shui thing... OK, I don't know about how spokes are supposed to radiate, whatever that means. I've always made sure they were parallel aside the valve hole, and I keep the pulling spokes to the inside of the rear hub. What else is there? -- - Frank Krygowski |
#18
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Habanero shows up curved stays
On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:04:19 -0500, Tim McNamara
wrote: On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:28:11 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie wrote: On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 10:43:07 AM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote: On Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:51:25 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-03-30 23:37, John B. wrote: On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:37:06 -0700, Joerg wrote: On 2017-03-30 07:31, wrote: Ok my Habby shows up and beautiful Ti. I got the model with the curved stays as opposed to straight. I was surprised by the large curves ... Until here I thought ... ahem ... about something similar to what Andrew thought :-) in chain and seat stays. Looks great have not had a chance to ride it but any wizards out there give me the dope on curved vs straight stays in a Titanium frame. Or any other for that matter. I looked at Bertrand's link and began to wonder why they are so much more expensive than the Ti cyclocrossers from BikesDirect. Those are between about $1500 and $2000 depending on how they are equipped. One reason might be that Titanium, isn't just one material. There are a myriad of different alloys and grades. In addition some alloys and grades are difficult to manufacture which might preclude the use as thin wall tubes.. As an example, one supplier lists 11 different grades of Ti tubes that are commonly used for aerospace and sports. One might procure the cheapest alloy or the most expensive and label each of them, honestly, as Titanium. Certainly true but my MTB buddy has a Titanium HT from BikesDirect that he beat the snot out of. That thing is indestructible. So their Titanium seems to be among the good stuff. Which doesn't surprise me because cheating there would very quickly destroy a reputation and then the business. The chief issue is whether the welding process is done correctly. If the weld is contaminated, it is more likely to fail. And like other materials, stress risers in the design must be avoided. My friend Doug has been riding a Teledyne Titan for more than 20 years. It finally cracked last summer where the downtube was swaged down to allow for the use of a derailleur lever clamp designs for non-OS steel frames. Darn shame, it was his favorite bike. The Teledyne was, IIRC, made from commercially pure titanium so that may be a factor- perhaps less fracture resistance than some of the other Ti alloys in use? Gads, he must have bought it used because they went out of production in '76. The thing is at least 40 years old. Not bad service. It didn't appear used; it was a job lot of bikes that appeared to have been in a bike shop that burned down- a bunch of 70s bikes, mostly Italian. Some of them had some scorched paint, melted saddles and cable housing, etc. Our guess was that it was an insurance salvage that had been sitting forgotten in a warehouse for a decade or two. But yeah, he got great service out of that bike. You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't know fashion back then. It seemed lke a weird solution at the time, too. Braze-ons for shift levers, cable stops, etc., were well known by then and might have been cheaper than the tube forming. Was the tube actually necked down? Or was it a piece of smaller diameter tube inserted into the larger down tube? The seat tube/top tube junction is obviously some sort of sleeved joint and I could see an advantage to welding a toptube/headtube sort of assemble if some sort of inert atmosphere box was being used for welding. I would add that when I certified on Titanium in 1972 the test tags were welded in an inert atmosphere box. -- Cheers, John B. |
#19
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Habanero shows up curved stays
On 3/31/2017 5:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
We had French aluminum cable bands (slip through slot, fold back) and Terry's clips (some of which were elegantly designed) but zipties hadn't made the leap to bicycles. What were (or are) the elegantly designed Terry clips? Is that Georgena Terry of Terry Bicycles? -- - Frank Krygowski |
#20
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Habanero shows up curved stays
On 3/31/2017 8:24 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/31/2017 4:25 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 11:37:37 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On Friday, March 31, 2017 at 2:28:15 PM UTC-4, jbeattie wrote: You know, that indent for a clamp-on BB cable guide is so stupid because they could have routed the cable under the BB with a little snap-in or screw on guide. I assume it's O.K. to drill a 2-3mm hole in the BB. I would have specially manufactured a super-light clamp-on DT lever boss. Forming the tubes to accommodate standard clamps seems like an odd solution for a super high-tec bike. Plus chrome cable guides look stupid against that matte finish. Pffff. The sure didn't know fashion back then. Perhaps they lacked the "complete machine shop" equipment needed to drill a hole in a tube? ;-) They would also need the advanced technology to build something futuristic like this: http://tinyurl.com/l5zqd7l Whoa! That's outer space alien technology! I think the purpose of some olde tyme products was to make things difficult. Why did it take so long to enlarge the caps on water bottles? I think that in the olden days (e.g. the 1970s) there was a lot more "design" done by just copying tradition. I suppose most of us here have anticipated future products by saying "Why doesn't anybody make..." about some perfectly obvious change. I assume component engineers had some of the same thoughts, but decided (or were told) "This is the way it's always been done." I remember talking to my bike shop buddies in the 1970s, saying someone should come out with special tooth profiles on rear cogs to make shifting easier. Eventually Shimano came out with twisted teeth, then teeth individually designed to aid the chain transfer between cogs. I remember building a pair of wheels for a guy with a Titan in Los Gatos. He wanted tied and soldered and wanted to make sure the hub labels read correctly -- so the "Campagnolo" was not upside down or inside out. I thought, "is this a trick question?" You can flip the front wheel, and there are no options for the rear wheel. I just nodded my head. Hell, I was the low-cost option and not an artiste. I actually did make sure that the spokes radiated correctly front and rear just so I didn't ruin the whole Titan feng shui thing... OK, I don't know about how spokes are supposed to radiate, whatever that means. I've always made sure they were parallel aside the valve hole, and I keep the pulling spokes to the inside of the rear hub. What else is there? bottles. Coloral bottles had big tops. Then we changed to TA and REG bottles with smaller tops and sippy nipples. Now we have even bigger tops. I referenced history of skirt lengths earlier. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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