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Here's a solution. What was the problem?



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 23rd 19, 01:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Here's a solution. What was the problem?

https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

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  #2  
Old October 23rd 19, 11:12 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Here's a solution. What was the problem?

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


I'm familiar with various forms of ABS, from the crude version taken off Boeing passenger jets for the Jensen Interceptor FF* (Formula Ferguson four wheel drive, developed for grand prix cars) which took the better part of a second to respond, to the modern versions. But I've commented before that a really pleasing ABS effect came with a Gazelle Toulouse c2004 (the black crow sleeper -- http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGgazelletoulouse.html -- before the Toulouse went all trendy) which had a disc brake at the front and a limp early model -41 Shimano roller brake at the back which almost automatically stopped the rear overtaking the front on wet downhills, so, while you had to be careful with the on-off nature of the wretched Shimano front disc, you just slammed the rear brake lever to the stops and held it there to stabilise the bike. I actually considered fitting an older, limper roller brake on my Trek Smover in the place of the Shimano IM70 roller -- http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html -- which I found too sharp for a rear brake even on a sporting bike, though on the front it was superior to a disc.

Proper ABS on a bike would be superb for cyclists who hold conversations while they ride, rather than fight the controls every moment.

Andre Jute
Experienced

* My own Jensens (I had two, one each time I got fed up with having to keep two Citroen SM to have one ready to drive and one in the the workshop being sorted) were the common 2WD, but once when the air traffic controllers struck in Rome and grounded my plane just when my girlfriend had to be at the Vienna Staatsoper at curtain-up or lose her job to the understudy, I borrowed an FF and drove her and another singing couple over the snowy passes to Vienna, a scary ride, but a fond memory of a private performance as they sang to keep up their spirits.
  #3  
Old October 23rd 19, 11:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Here's a solution. What was the problem?

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 07:36:24 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


Perhaps I am a bit cynical but certainly customers would be willing to
pay more for a bike with an ABS system than with old fashioned hand
brakes. After all mechanical brakes date back to the 1800's. Old! Old!
Old!
--
cheers,

John B.

  #4  
Old October 23rd 19, 11:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Here's a solution. What was the problem?

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


I'm familiar with various forms of ABS, from the crude version taken off Boeing passenger jets for the Jensen Interceptor FF* (Formula Ferguson four wheel drive, developed for grand prix cars) which took the better part of a second to respond, to the modern versions. But I've commented before that a really pleasing ABS effect came with a Gazelle Toulouse c2004 (the black crow sleeper -- http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGgazelletoulouse.html -- before the Toulouse went all trendy) which had a disc brake at the front and a limp early model -41 Shimano roller brake at the back which almost automatically stopped the rear overtaking the front on wet downhills, so, while you had to be careful with the on-off nature of the wretched Shimano front disc, you just slammed the rear brake lever to the stops and held it there to stabilise the bike. I actually considered fitting an older, limper roller brake on my Trek Smover in the place of the Shimano IM70 roller -- http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html -- which I found too sharp for a rear brake even on a sporting bike, though on the front it was superior to a disc.

Proper ABS on a bike would be superb for cyclists who hold conversations while they ride, rather than fight the controls every moment.

Andre Jute
Experienced

* My own Jensens (I had two, one each time I got fed up with having to keep two Citroen SM to have one ready to drive and one in the the workshop being sorted) were the common 2WD, but once when the air traffic controllers struck in Rome and grounded my plane just when my girlfriend had to be at the Vienna Staatsoper at curtain-up or lose her job to the understudy, I borrowed an FF and drove her and another singing couple over the snowy passes to Vienna, a scary ride, but a fond memory of a private performance as they sang to keep up their spirits.


The real important thing is that an AI self driving car CANNOT actually predict things from any given set of inputs. This means that it depends on its reaction time to prevent accidents - this works well enough for stop and go traffic but it doesn't work for a child running out from behind a car. A man would think, hmmm, there are children present but they are all on the other side of the street and I should watch to make sure that some kid on my side of the street doesn't suddenly appear to run across to his friends. The AI says to itself, "there is nothing in my sensory range."

So a child appearing would be safe ONLY if the reaction time of the computer is rapid enough. And that means that in a residential area it would be limited to 15 mph (22 feet per second) or even less. A van or pickup is about 18 feet long and the response time of a 1/2 second for the computer and the stopping distance of the car would put you at 22 feet on a dry flat road with good traction.

Really this is something that I can analyze rapidly since it is my business.. The case on a freeway is virtually impossible since you can have cars cutting in front of you and slamming on the brakes with less than a carlength in hand. If you haven't already expected it and started braking as they do that you either run into the back of them or have the guy behind you slam into the back of you.
  #5  
Old October 24th 19, 12:03 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Here's a solution. What was the problem?

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


snip

Proper ABS on a bike would be superb for cyclists who hold conversations while they ride, rather than fight the controls every moment.


What does that even mean? I don't know anyone who "fights the controls every moment" -- or fights them at all. Why would people need panic-stop traction control at talking speeds? I believe you are referring to a group of riders who have happily lived with coaster brakes since time immemorial.

I have a front disc that shudders -- in fact, I need to go work on it tonight -- it is de facto ABS, and it drives me crazy. An ABS front would probably freak-out a lot of cyclists.

And if a cyclist wants ABS, just get a disc brake and contaminate the pads with a little oil or warp the rotor a bit. Instant ABS. I'm going to patent my mistakes and market them.

-- Jay Beattie.



  #6  
Old October 24th 19, 12:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Here's a solution. What was the problem?

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:48:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


I'm familiar with various forms of ABS, from the crude version taken off Boeing passenger jets for the Jensen Interceptor FF* (Formula Ferguson four wheel drive, developed for grand prix cars) which took the better part of a second to respond, to the modern versions. But I've commented before that a really pleasing ABS effect came with a Gazelle Toulouse c2004 (the black crow sleeper -- http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGgazelletoulouse.html -- before the Toulouse went all trendy) which had a disc brake at the front and a limp early model -41 Shimano roller brake at the back which almost automatically stopped the rear overtaking the front on wet downhills, so, while you had to be careful with the on-off nature of the wretched Shimano front disc, you just slammed the rear brake lever to the stops and held it there to stabilise the bike. I actually considered fitting an older, limper roller brake on my Trek Smover in the place of the Shimano IM70 roller --

http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html -- which I found too sharp for a rear brake even on a sporting bike, though on the front it was superior to a disc.


Errr. TOM! The Jensen Interceptor FF used the Dunlop's Maxaret the
first anti-lock braking system (ABS) to be widely used. Introduced in
the early 1950s,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen_FF

"The Jensen FF is a four-wheel drive grand tourer produced by British
car manufacturer Jensen Motors between 1966 and 1971. It was the first
non all-terrain production car equipped with four-wheel drive and an
anti-lock braking system.

The use of four-wheel drive in a passenger car preceded the successful
AMC Eagle by thirteen years and the Audi Quattro by fourteen years,
and the Subaru Leone by five years. The Dunlop Maxaret mechanical
anti-lock braking system had previously been used only on aircraft,
lorries, and racing cars.

As a comment, it might have been a "crude version" but the earliest
versions of the Maxaret system reduced stopping distances by a third.

Tom, do try to get it right next time.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #7  
Old October 24th 19, 01:07 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Here's a solution. What was the problem?

On Thursday, October 24, 2019 at 12:04:01 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


snip

Proper ABS on a bike would be superb for cyclists who hold conversations while they ride, rather than fight the controls every moment.


What does that even mean?


It means people who cycle carelessly and slam on the brakes because they notice potential hazards late. I have two bikes, disc and roller front brakes, that will throw you over the handlebars onto your face every time you apply the brakes carelessly. Not so the bike on which I have specified the lowest calliper force and most progressive rim hydraulics then available (no longer available, presumably because "real cyclists" only want the strong medicine). I expect devices I own to be my servants, not to demand more attention than I wish to give them.

I don't know anyone who "fights the controls every moment" -- or fights them at all.


Lucky you.

Why would people need panic-stop traction control at talking speeds?


What do you think "talking speeds" are?

I believe you are referring to a group of riders who have happily lived with coaster brakes since time immemorial.


This whole post from you, Jay, demonstrates an infection of Krygowski Dementia, the belief that you know more about my circumstances, and the people I cycle with, than I do. In fact, the only person I've even heard of who rides on a coaster brake is the dumpster-diver Frank Krygowski.

I have a front disc that shudders -- in fact, I need to go work on it tonight -- it is de facto ABS, and it drives me crazy. An ABS front would probably freak-out a lot of cyclists.


If the ABS is well made, you'd notice it as little as in a car. I don't know if a cheap car like your Subaru has ABS, but the point of my postscript about the early airplane-type ABS on the Jensen FF was that it was slow enough to feel the pulses individually, and that we've come a very long way since then. Tom has some numbers in a nearby post, which appear to assume a 1G stop, which happens only under test circumstances -- meaning that real-life stops require more time and space. And at that, the half-second Tom reckons the software requires is already faster than the three-quarters second which is *fast for a human*.

And if a cyclist wants ABS, just get a disc brake and contaminate the pads with a little oil or warp the rotor a bit. Instant ABS.


That's a version of the "Serendipity Anti-Blockers" I described in the post above about the disc/limp-roller duo.

I'm going to patent my mistakes and market them.


You and everyone else. Engineering research is much accelerated by the ability to fail fast, so that all possibilities may be examined in the least time and eliminated at the least cost until only the most effective remains. Now watch Franki-boy go into orbit because he hasn't the faintest idea of research-for-profit but won't be able to keep his trap shut.

Andre Jute
Lifelong disruptor
  #8  
Old October 24th 19, 01:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
Default Here's a solution. What was the problem?

On Wednesday, 23 October 2019 08:36:22 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Gotta get consumers to spend money somehow. If manufacturers tell them that what they have is fine manufacturers will go out of business. Manufacturers need to market stuff that's new and better even if it isn't.

Cheers
  #9  
Old October 24th 19, 01:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default Here's a solution. What was the problem?

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:03:59 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


snip

Proper ABS on a bike would be superb for cyclists who hold conversations while they ride, rather than fight the controls every moment.


What does that even mean? I don't know anyone who "fights the controls every moment" -- or fights them at all. Why would people need panic-stop traction control at talking speeds? I believe you are referring to a group of riders who have happily lived with coaster brakes since time immemorial.

I have a front disc that shudders -- in fact, I need to go work on it tonight -- it is de facto ABS, and it drives me crazy. An ABS front would probably freak-out a lot of cyclists.

And if a cyclist wants ABS, just get a disc brake and contaminate the pads with a little oil or warp the rotor a bit. Instant ABS. I'm going to patent my mistakes and market them.

-- Jay Beattie.


On an aircraft the braking technique, on an aircraft equipped with
anti-locking (ABS) brakes, is to get the reverse thrust system
working, whether reversing the propellers or the anti-thrust system
with a jet, and than apply the brakes fully and hold them on. The
anti locking system prevents the wheel from locking and maximum
braking is achieved.

As you have no mechanical anti-locking system on your bicycle a
somewhat similar effect - the wheel never locks - can be achieved by
simply lubricating the brake pads on your disk brake :-)

Or, as an alternate method, you could use the anti-locking system that
is mounted on your shoulders, just under your hat/helmet :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

  #10  
Old October 24th 19, 01:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Here's a solution. What was the problem?

On 10/23/2019 6:38 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:48:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I'm familiar with various forms of ABS, from the crude version taken off Boeing passenger jets for the Jensen Interceptor FF* (Formula Ferguson four wheel drive, developed for grand prix cars) which took the better part of a second to respond, to the modern versions. But I've commented before that a really pleasing ABS effect came with a Gazelle Toulouse c2004 (the black crow sleeper -- http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGgazelletoulouse.html -- before the Toulouse went all trendy) which had a disc brake at the front and a limp early model -41 Shimano roller brake at the back which almost automatically stopped the rear overtaking the front on wet downhills, so, while you had to be careful with the on-off nature of the wretched Shimano front disc, you just slammed the rear brake lever to the stops and held it there to stabilise the bike. I actually considered fitting an older, limper roller brake on my Trek Smover in the place of the Shimano IM70 roller --

http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html -- which I found too sharp for a rear brake even on a sporting bike, though on the front it was superior to a disc.


Errr. TOM! The Jensen Interceptor FF used the Dunlop's Maxaret the
first anti-lock braking system (ABS) to be widely used. Introduced in
the early 1950s,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen_FF

"The Jensen FF is a four-wheel drive grand tourer produced by British
car manufacturer Jensen Motors between 1966 and 1971. It was the first
non all-terrain production car equipped with four-wheel drive and an
anti-lock braking system.

The use of four-wheel drive in a passenger car preceded the successful
AMC Eagle by thirteen years and the Audi Quattro by fourteen years,
and the Subaru Leone by five years. The Dunlop Maxaret mechanical
anti-lock braking system had previously been used only on aircraft,
lorries, and racing cars.

As a comment, it might have been a "crude version" but the earliest
versions of the Maxaret system reduced stopping distances by a third.

Tom, do try to get it right next time.


Get what right?

"crude version taken off Boeing passenger jets for the Jensen Interceptor FF"


Which is what you rephrased.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




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