Here's a solution. What was the problem?

On Wednesday, 23 October 2019 20:15:09 UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:03:59 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

snip

Proper ABS on a bike would be superb for cyclists who hold conversations while they ride, rather than fight the controls every moment.

What does that even mean? I don't know anyone who "fights the controls every moment" -- or fights them at all. Why would people need panic-stop traction control at talking speeds? I believe you are referring to a group of riders who have happily lived with coaster brakes since time immemorial.

I have a front disc that shudders -- in fact, I need to go work on it tonight -- it is de facto ABS, and it drives me crazy. An ABS front would probably freak-out a lot of cyclists.

And if a cyclist wants ABS, just get a disc brake and contaminate the pads with a little oil or warp the rotor a bit. Instant ABS. I'm going to patent my mistakes and market them.

-- Jay Beattie.

On an aircraft the braking technique, on an aircraft equipped with
anti-locking (ABS) brakes, is to get the reverse thrust system
working, whether reversing the propellers or the anti-thrust system
with a jet, and than apply the brakes fully and hold them on. The
anti locking system prevents the wheel from locking and maximum
braking is achieved.

As you have no mechanical anti-locking system on your bicycle a
somewhat similar effect - the wheel never locks - can be achieved by
simply lubricating the brake pads on your disk brake :-)

Or, as an alternate method, you could use the anti-locking system that
is mounted on your shoulders, just under your hat/helmet :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

That reminds me of a guy working in a bicycle assembly area with me when cantilever brakes were of the type that stuck straight out from the rim. They were quite difficult to get to stop squealing. He figured out very easy way to do it though. He just sprayed every rim with WD-40. ! YIKES! I had to go and clean the rims on about 100 bikes becauue we didn't know which ones he'd done that to.

Cheers

Actually, Slow Johnny, you're responding to me. I wrote that about the Jensen Interceptor FF. Unlike you, I was there, I drove an Interceptor as my everyday car, and on several occasions I drove an FF, including the long trip in anger in adverse conditions that I describe. If you think I got any of the facts wrong, don't be such a coward and hide behind Tom, stand up like a man (albeit one with Duck's Disease) and tell me to my face what you think I got wrong, and I'll roll over an ignorant little loudmouth like you in about ten seconds.

Andre Jute
You may call me sir, as long as you get off the sidewalk when I approach

On Thursday, October 24, 2019 at 12:38:16 AM UTC+1, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:48:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I'm familiar with various forms of ABS, from the crude version taken off Boeing passenger jets for the Jensen Interceptor FF* (Formula Ferguson four wheel drive, developed for grand prix cars) which took the better part of a second to respond, to the modern versions. But I've commented before that a really pleasing ABS effect came with a Gazelle Toulouse c2004 (the black crow sleeper -- http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGgazelletoulouse.html -- before the Toulouse went all trendy) which had a disc brake at the front and a limp early model -41 Shimano roller brake at the back which almost automatically stopped the rear overtaking the front on wet downhills, so, while you had to be careful with the on-off nature of the wretched Shimano front disc, you just slammed the rear brake lever to the stops and held it there to stabilise the bike. I actually considered fitting an older, limper roller brake on my Trek Smover in the place of the Shimano IM70 roller --
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html -- which I found too sharp for a rear brake even on a sporting bike, though on the front it was superior to a disc.


Errr. TOM! The Jensen Interceptor FF used the Dunlop's Maxaret the
first anti-lock braking system (ABS) to be widely used. Introduced in
the early 1950s,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen_FF

"The Jensen FF is a four-wheel drive grand tourer produced by British
car manufacturer Jensen Motors between 1966 and 1971. It was the first
non all-terrain production car equipped with four-wheel drive and an
anti-lock braking system.

The use of four-wheel drive in a passenger car preceded the successful
AMC Eagle by thirteen years and the Audi Quattro by fourteen years,
and the Subaru Leone by five years. The Dunlop Maxaret mechanical
anti-lock braking system had previously been used only on aircraft,
lorries, and racing cars.

As a comment, it might have been a "crude version" but the earliest
versions of the Maxaret system reduced stopping distances by a third.

Tom, do try to get it right next time.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, October 24, 2019 at 1:08:30 AM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, 23 October 2019 08:36:22 UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Gotta get consumers to spend money somehow. If manufacturers tell them that what they have is fine manufacturers will go out of business. Manufacturers need to market stuff that's new and better even if it isn't.

Cheers

Come on, Ridealot, you bought the cut-down Di2 system (whatever it is called on road bikes) of electronic shifting, didn't you? (I have the full auto gear change system, which also controls the adaptive suspension. See http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html I don't feel ripped, but I think road bikers should.) Seems to me ABS would be a lot more useful, especially where you and Duane and I live, than mere electronic gear switching for a grand.

Andre Jute
Manufacturers make their gravy from options list

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 5:07:14 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, October 24, 2019 at 12:04:01 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

snip

Proper ABS on a bike would be superb for cyclists who hold conversations while they ride, rather than fight the controls every moment.

What does that even mean?

It means people who cycle carelessly and slam on the brakes because they notice potential hazards late. I have two bikes, disc and roller front brakes, that will throw you over the handlebars onto your face every time you apply the brakes carelessly. Not so the bike on which I have specified the lowest calliper force and most progressive rim hydraulics then available (no longer available, presumably because "real cyclists" only want the strong medicine). I expect devices I own to be my servants, not to demand more attention than I wish to give them.

I don't know anyone who "fights the controls every moment" -- or fights them at all.

Lucky you.

Why would people need panic-stop traction control at talking speeds?

What do you think "talking speeds" are?

On the Utopia, I'm imagining 10-12mph on the dead flats. http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute%27sUtopiaKranich.pdf Not really the type of riding the requires a sophisticated braking system.


I believe you are referring to a group of riders who have happily lived with coaster brakes since time immemorial.

This whole post from you, Jay, demonstrates an infection of Krygowski Dementia, the belief that you know more about my circumstances, and the people I cycle with, than I do. In fact, the only person I've even heard of who rides on a coaster brake is the dumpster-diver Frank Krygowski.

I don't know your circumstances, but low-speed cyclists have managed with even the crudest of brakes -- like coaster brakes (and drums, or both). https://www.gazellebikes.com/en-gb/granny-bikes


I have a front disc that shudders -- in fact, I need to go work on it tonight -- it is de facto ABS, and it drives me crazy. An ABS front would probably freak-out a lot of cyclists.

If the ABS is well made, you'd notice it as little as in a car. I don't know if a cheap car like your Subaru has ABS, but the point of my postscript about the early airplane-type ABS on the Jensen FF was that it was slow enough to feel the pulses individually, and that we've come a very long way since then. Tom has some numbers in a nearby post, which appear to assume a 1G stop, which happens only under test circumstances -- meaning that real-life stops require more time and space. And at that, the half-second Tom reckons the software requires is already faster than the three-quarters second which is *fast for a human*.

Don't dis my Subaru. It has ABS, but it doesn't make much difference where its needed the most. http://www.snow-forecast.com/system/...jpg?1353263041 That's right on the way to ski resort, and its oddly empty road. It's a conga line on weekends. Anyway, ABS on snow and ice doesn't work in a four wheel skid. Imagine all the processing power in modern ABS systems and then transfer that to a bike. More electronic stuff to add to the Garmin, Di2, rear radar, etc., etc.


And if a cyclist wants ABS, just get a disc brake and contaminate the pads with a little oil or warp the rotor a bit. Instant ABS.

That's a version of the "Serendipity Anti-Blockers" I described in the post above about the disc/limp-roller duo.

I'm going to patent my mistakes and market them.

You and everyone else. Engineering research is much accelerated by the ability to fail fast, so that all possibilities may be examined in the least time and eliminated at the least cost until only the most effective remains.. Now watch Franki-boy go into orbit because he hasn't the faintest idea of research-for-profit but won't be able to keep his trap shut.

Do you have some odd Frank fetish? And speaking of fetishes, you should drop the third-grade naming conventions like Franki-boy and Slow Johnny. We're all adults (?).

-- Jay Beattie.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 19:16:53 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 10/23/2019 6:38 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:48:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I'm familiar with various forms of ABS, from the crude version taken off Boeing passenger jets for the Jensen Interceptor FF* (Formula Ferguson four wheel drive, developed for grand prix cars) which took the better part of a second to respond, to the modern versions. But I've commented before that a really pleasing ABS effect came with a Gazelle Toulouse c2004 (the black crow sleeper -- http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGgazelletoulouse.html -- before the Toulouse went all trendy) which had a disc brake at the front and a limp early model -41 Shimano roller brake at the back which almost automatically stopped the rear overtaking the front on wet downhills, so, while you had to be careful with the on-off nature of the wretched Shimano front disc, you just slammed the rear brake lever to the stops and held it there to stabilise the bike. I actually considered fitting an older, limper roller brake on my Trek Smover in the place of the Shimano IM70 roller --
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html -- which I found too sharp for a rear brake even on a sporting bike, though on the front it was superior to a disc.


Errr. TOM! The Jensen Interceptor FF used the Dunlop's Maxaret the
first anti-lock braking system (ABS) to be widely used. Introduced in
the early 1950s,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen_FF

"The Jensen FF is a four-wheel drive grand tourer produced by British
car manufacturer Jensen Motors between 1966 and 1971. It was the first
non all-terrain production car equipped with four-wheel drive and an
anti-lock braking system.

The use of four-wheel drive in a passenger car preceded the successful
AMC Eagle by thirteen years and the Audi Quattro by fourteen years,
and the Subaru Leone by five years. The Dunlop Maxaret mechanical
anti-lock braking system had previously been used only on aircraft,
lorries, and racing cars.

As a comment, it might have been a "crude version" but the earliest
versions of the Maxaret system reduced stopping distances by a third.

Tom, do try to get it right next time.

Get what right?

"crude version taken off Boeing passenger jets for the Jensen Interceptor FF"

Which is what you rephrased.

O.K. I'll I say that I doubt very much that the Jensen utilized a
crude ABS system taken off a Boeing passenger jet as it seems unlikely
that it would fit, if for no other reason. In addition Boeing had been
installing anti-skid systems, or ABS in modern termonology, in their
military aircraft since 1947 and their first commercial jet, the 707,
since 1958. The Jensen FF was built from 1966 til 1971.

Given that anti-skid brakes are far more critical to modern high speed
jet aircraft than to automobiles do you really believe that after
nearly 20 years of use on some of the most advanced large aircraft in
the world that the anti-skid system would be describbed as "crude"?

But of course, it sounds very colorful and excieting if you don't know
a bit of history about the systems (or what you are talking about :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 17:24:21 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Wednesday, 23 October 2019 20:15:09 UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 16:03:59 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

snip

Proper ABS on a bike would be superb for cyclists who hold conversations while they ride, rather than fight the controls every moment.

What does that even mean? I don't know anyone who "fights the controls every moment" -- or fights them at all. Why would people need panic-stop traction control at talking speeds? I believe you are referring to a group of riders who have happily lived with coaster brakes since time immemorial.

I have a front disc that shudders -- in fact, I need to go work on it tonight -- it is de facto ABS, and it drives me crazy. An ABS front would probably freak-out a lot of cyclists.

And if a cyclist wants ABS, just get a disc brake and contaminate the pads with a little oil or warp the rotor a bit. Instant ABS. I'm going to patent my mistakes and market them.

-- Jay Beattie.

On an aircraft the braking technique, on an aircraft equipped with
anti-locking (ABS) brakes, is to get the reverse thrust system
working, whether reversing the propellers or the anti-thrust system
with a jet, and than apply the brakes fully and hold them on. The
anti locking system prevents the wheel from locking and maximum
braking is achieved.

As you have no mechanical anti-locking system on your bicycle a
somewhat similar effect - the wheel never locks - can be achieved by
simply lubricating the brake pads on your disk brake :-)

Or, as an alternate method, you could use the anti-locking system that
is mounted on your shoulders, just under your hat/helmet :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

That reminds me of a guy working in a bicycle assembly area with me when cantilever brakes were of the type that stuck straight out from the rim. They were quite difficult to get to stop squealing. He figured out very easy way to do it though. He just sprayed every rim with WD-40. ! YIKES! I had to go and clean the rims on about 100 bikes becauue we didn't know which ones he'd done that to.

Cheers

Goodness. Someone complains about the brakes squealing and you fix
them so they don't squeal and the guy still complains... Some people
are never satisfied :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On 10/23/2019 8:36 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 19:16:53 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 10/23/2019 6:38 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:48:20 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I'm familiar with various forms of ABS, from the crude version taken off Boeing passenger jets for the Jensen Interceptor FF* (Formula Ferguson four wheel drive, developed for grand prix cars) which took the better part of a second to respond, to the modern versions. But I've commented before that a really pleasing ABS effect came with a Gazelle Toulouse c2004 (the black crow sleeper -- http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGgazelletoulouse.html -- before the Toulouse went all trendy) which had a disc brake at the front and a limp early model -41 Shimano roller brake at the back which almost automatically stopped the rear overtaking the front on wet downhills, so, while you had to be careful with the on-off nature of the wretched Shimano front disc, you just slammed the rear brake lever to the stops and held it there to stabilise the bike. I actually considered fitting an older, limper roller brake on my Trek Smover in the place of the Shimano IM70 roller --
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html -- which I found too sharp for a rear brake even on a sporting bike, though on the front it was superior to a disc.


Errr. TOM! The Jensen Interceptor FF used the Dunlop's Maxaret the
first anti-lock braking system (ABS) to be widely used. Introduced in
the early 1950s,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jensen_FF

"The Jensen FF is a four-wheel drive grand tourer produced by British
car manufacturer Jensen Motors between 1966 and 1971. It was the first
non all-terrain production car equipped with four-wheel drive and an
anti-lock braking system.

The use of four-wheel drive in a passenger car preceded the successful
AMC Eagle by thirteen years and the Audi Quattro by fourteen years,
and the Subaru Leone by five years. The Dunlop Maxaret mechanical
anti-lock braking system had previously been used only on aircraft,
lorries, and racing cars.

As a comment, it might have been a "crude version" but the earliest
versions of the Maxaret system reduced stopping distances by a third.

Tom, do try to get it right next time.

Get what right?

"crude version taken off Boeing passenger jets for the Jensen Interceptor FF"

Which is what you rephrased.

O.K. I'll I say that I doubt very much that the Jensen utilized a
crude ABS system taken off a Boeing passenger jet as it seems unlikely
that it would fit, if for no other reason. In addition Boeing had been
installing anti-skid systems, or ABS in modern termonology, in their
military aircraft since 1947 and their first commercial jet, the 707,
since 1958. The Jensen FF was built from 1966 til 1971.

Given that anti-skid brakes are far more critical to modern high speed
jet aircraft than to automobiles do you really believe that after
nearly 20 years of use on some of the most advanced large aircraft in
the world that the anti-skid system would be describbed as "crude"?

But of course, it sounds very colorful and excieting if you don't know
a bit of history about the systems (or what you are talking about :-)
--
cheers,

John B.


Some might say 'innovative' being the first of its kind:

http://www.jensenmuseum.org/dunlop-maxaret/

Others might say 'crude' as compared to modern systems.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, 23 October 2019 21:29:36 UTC-4, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 5:07:14 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
Snipped
Do you have some odd Frank fetish? And speaking of fetishes, you should drop the third-grade naming conventions like Franki-boy and Slow Johnny. We're all adults (?).

-- Jay Beattie.

Such naming is a classic hallmark of a Troll who posts ONLY to inflame.

Cheers

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 07:36:24 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...bs-system-for-
bikes/

The less experience bicycle rider who likes to do risky stuff.
All numptys like to just jam on th brakes and not have to worry about
skidding and learn feathering.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:29:33 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 5:07:14 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Thursday, October 24, 2019 at 12:04:01 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 3:12:58 PM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Wednesday, October 23, 2019 at 1:36:22 PM UTC+1, AMuzi wrote:
https://cyclingindustry.news/shimano...tem-for-bikes/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

snip

Proper ABS on a bike would be superb for cyclists who hold conversations while they ride, rather than fight the controls every moment.

What does that even mean?

It means people who cycle carelessly and slam on the brakes because they notice potential hazards late. I have two bikes, disc and roller front brakes, that will throw you over the handlebars onto your face every time you apply the brakes carelessly. Not so the bike on which I have specified the lowest calliper force and most progressive rim hydraulics then available (no longer available, presumably because "real cyclists" only want the strong medicine). I expect devices I own to be my servants, not to demand more attention than I wish to give them.

I don't know anyone who "fights the controls every moment" -- or fights them at all.

Lucky you.

Why would people need panic-stop traction control at talking speeds?

What do you think "talking speeds" are?

On the Utopia, I'm imagining 10-12mph on the dead flats. http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute%27sUtopiaKranich.pdf Not really the type of riding the requires a sophisticated braking system.


I believe you are referring to a group of riders who have happily lived with coaster brakes since time immemorial.

This whole post from you, Jay, demonstrates an infection of Krygowski Dementia, the belief that you know more about my circumstances, and the people I cycle with, than I do. In fact, the only person I've even heard of who rides on a coaster brake is the dumpster-diver Frank Krygowski.

I don't know your circumstances, but low-speed cyclists have managed with even the crudest of brakes -- like coaster brakes (and drums, or both). https://www.gazellebikes.com/en-gb/granny-bikes


I have a front disc that shudders -- in fact, I need to go work on it tonight -- it is de facto ABS, and it drives me crazy. An ABS front would probably freak-out a lot of cyclists.

If the ABS is well made, you'd notice it as little as in a car. I don't know if a cheap car like your Subaru has ABS, but the point of my postscript about the early airplane-type ABS on the Jensen FF was that it was slow enough to feel the pulses individually, and that we've come a very long way since then. Tom has some numbers in a nearby post, which appear to assume a 1G stop, which happens only under test circumstances -- meaning that real-life stops require more time and space. And at that, the half-second Tom reckons the software requires is already faster than the three-quarters second which is *fast for a human*.

Don't dis my Subaru. It has ABS, but it doesn't make much difference where its needed the most. http://www.snow-forecast.com/system/...jpg?1353263041 That's right on the way to ski resort, and its oddly empty road. It's a conga line on weekends. Anyway, ABS on snow and ice doesn't work in a four wheel skid. Imagine all the processing power in modern ABS systems and then transfer that to a bike. More electronic stuff to add to the Garmin, Di2, rear radar, etc., etc.


And if a cyclist wants ABS, just get a disc brake and contaminate the pads with a little oil or warp the rotor a bit. Instant ABS.

That's a version of the "Serendipity Anti-Blockers" I described in the post above about the disc/limp-roller duo.

I'm going to patent my mistakes and market them.

You and everyone else. Engineering research is much accelerated by the ability to fail fast, so that all possibilities may be examined in the least time and eliminated at the least cost until only the most effective remains. Now watch Franki-boy go into orbit because he hasn't the faintest idea of research-for-profit but won't be able to keep his trap shut.

Do you have some odd Frank fetish? And speaking of fetishes, you should drop the third-grade naming conventions like Franki-boy and Slow Johnny. We're all adults (?).

-- Jay Beattie.

Physically yes. Mentally.... perhaps :-)
--
cheers,

John B.