#81
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New bike path
On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 8:05:50 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/17/2018 8:53 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 2:35:10 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-03-17 14:06, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 9:25:02 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-03-17 08:15, jbeattie wrote: [...] Joerg also needs to read-up on current and past federal transportation financing -- ISTEA, SAFETEA-LU, MAP-21 and note that the Orange Overlord is gutting federal transportation funding -- shifting costs onto the states for the huge, incredible, the bestest infrastructure projects ever! Most of the big bicycle projects in Oregon were funded in large part by the feds. There was also state and local funding under the Oregon Bicycle Bill. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/rex-b...b_3861490.html Just open some government land (which they are now doing) and let people ride their MTB there. That solves a lot of the missing bike links. For example, thanks to Arnold Schwarzenegger we've got this connector from Lotus to Folsom: https://s3-media4.fl.yelpcdn.com/bph...rXV2vLEQ/o.jpg Before that the ride was much longer and quite hazardous (I almost got clipped by a motorcyclist there). Now the ride is like a mini-vacation but you do need a serious MTB. Rim brakes like in the photo are not recommended on this route. Oh, so tax payers should be paying for your "serious MTB" route? That's dopey. Government should be installing infrastructure to reduce inner-city and suburban congestion -- and providing useful connectors for ordinary cyclists and not the super-gnarly mountain biker mountain-lion tamers. Focus on the topic: "bike paths" and not super-awesome, scary mountain bike trails. People out here are different and that may be hard to understand for city folk. For example, when I came back from Placerville on the usual route (singletrack) a bunch of kids and their dad came by. Dad had to drop off the car for service, they loaded all their MTBs and rode back.. Just a normal day in paradise. They sure rode like they know how to handle MTBs. Pfff. You move to a airpark-golf-course community and make it sound like you're the Donner Party crossing the Sierra. You are city folk. If you can ride to Costco, you're not in the middle of nowhere. I'm not impressed by someone who hauls his kids in a car, gets out and then goes trail riding. I can do that around here, too (assuming I still had small kids) -- but it's not relevant to transportation planning in general. Do the awesome mountain bike kids ride to school? I would find that more impressive. Living near the hills give you easy access to trails, and maybe even makes them relevant connectors, but your mythical person who would ride if there were infrastructure is not going to be dragging his or her ass over dirt trails to get somewhere. Exactly. Joerg is all about anecdotes, and believes his "I saw one guy..." tales trump all data. When he does deal with data, it's to say "Well, 1% bike mode share is excellent for America." Or "Well, all those facilities don't work because they're built wrong. It's the _next_ facility that will perform miracles." He should spend more time investigating transportation policies and maybe even getting on the Cameron Park CSD board of directors -- or some bicycle advocacy group. I'm not that happy about the direction ultimately taken by the BTA (now the Street Trust), but it accomplished a lot back in the early days. I can look around Portland and identify specific projects we accomplished -- bikes on TriMet, the re-do of the massively popular Hawthorne Bridge crossing, the Rose Quarter bike facilities and all the bike lanes put in to comply with the Bike Bill -- including the one I ride practically every work day (unless taking an alternate route). This was because of button-up bicycle advocates and not the lunatic fringe wanting to promote gender equality among whales (a frequent problem with advocacy groups -- fringe interests taking over). Our fearless leaders knew all the ins-and-outs of ISTEA and angles for selling bike projects in a way that meant money for state or local planning bodies. We also caused city planners to educate themselves on bicycle infrastructure -- Mia Burke in particular who turned it into a huge business, Alta Planning. Joerg could go to the people in Folsom and find out exactly how they did all the magical things the people in Cameron Park are too busy golfing or flying to care about. He could go there in his stage coach and talk to the country folks, speaking in that special country-folk way. Maybe stop at Costco on the way home. -- Jay Beattie. |
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#82
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New bike path
On 2018-03-18 08:10, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 8:05:50 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/17/2018 8:53 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 2:35:10 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-03-17 14:06, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 9:25:02 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2018-03-17 08:15, jbeattie wrote: [...] Joerg also needs to read-up on current and past federal transportation financing -- ISTEA, SAFETEA-LU, MAP-21 and note that the Orange Overlord is gutting federal transportation funding -- shifting costs onto the states for the huge, incredible, the bestest infrastructure projects ever! Most of the big bicycle projects in Oregon were funded in large part by the feds. There was also state and local funding under the Oregon Bicycle Bill. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/rex-b...b_3861490.html Just open some government land (which they are now doing) and let people ride their MTB there. That solves a lot of the missing bike links. For example, thanks to Arnold Schwarzenegger we've got this connector from Lotus to Folsom: https://s3-media4.fl.yelpcdn.com/bph...rXV2vLEQ/o.jpg Before that the ride was much longer and quite hazardous (I almost got clipped by a motorcyclist there). Now the ride is like a mini-vacation but you do need a serious MTB. Rim brakes like in the photo are not recommended on this route. Oh, so tax payers should be paying for your "serious MTB" route? That's dopey. Government should be installing infrastructure to reduce inner-city and suburban congestion -- and providing useful connectors for ordinary cyclists and not the super-gnarly mountain biker mountain-lion tamers. Focus on the topic: "bike paths" and not super-awesome, scary mountain bike trails. People out here are different and that may be hard to understand for city folk. For example, when I came back from Placerville on the usual route (singletrack) a bunch of kids and their dad came by. Dad had to drop off the car for service, they loaded all their MTBs and rode back. Just a normal day in paradise. They sure rode like they know how to handle MTBs. Pfff. You move to a airpark-golf-course community and make it sound like you're the Donner Party crossing the Sierra. You are city folk. If you can ride to Costco, you're not in the middle of nowhere. I'm not impressed by someone who hauls his kids in a car, gets out and then goes trail riding. It was the only way back by bike. The oter option would have been their courtesy shuttle. ... I can do that around here, too (assuming I still had small kids) -- but it's not relevant to transportation planning in general. Do the awesome mountain bike kids ride to school? I would find that more impressive. Living near the hills give you easy access to trails, and maybe even makes them relevant connectors, ... Exactly, relevant connectors. When riding from here to Placerville the only viable connector. ... but your mythical person who would ride if there were infrastructure is not going to be dragging his or her ass over dirt trails to get somewhere. Several did. They are not mythical but real people and are now regularly riding the trails. One even splurged and bought a new and serious MTB. What triggered it was me taking our dogs along a different road, came by an open garage, saw a garage queen MTB in there. A guy was outside and we got to talk. "You can get to Placerville by bicycle?" ... "Yes, I can show you" ... Then we rode together. Then one of his friends wanted to come along. Then they rode together and another friend joined. Now we even have a bike shop right on that trail, Sam's Town Cyclery. He would not be there if he wasn't sure that that's where MTB riders come by. https://s17-us2.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/...4aae05fff73191 Exactly. Joerg is all about anecdotes, and believes his "I saw one guy..." tales trump all data. When he does deal with data, it's to say "Well, 1% bike mode share is excellent for America." Or "Well, all those facilities don't work because they're built wrong. It's the _next_ facility that will perform miracles." No blah-blah, come here and ride the American River bike path during rush hour. Or the Humbug Willow Creek trail system in Folsom. Then you know. Those are prime examples of a bike paths built right. He should spend more time investigating transportation policies and maybe even getting on the Cameron Park CSD board of directors ... That would be rather useless. I know someone who tried and eventually resigned. I remember when I was at a meeting, they discussed a yuppie town mural ad nauseam and then blew an incredible amount of money on it, wanting us to look like El Dorado Hills. Which will never work. I could tell you some stories about other "smart" decisions. ... -- or some bicycle advocacy group. I'm not that happy about the direction ultimately taken by the BTA (now the Street Trust), but it accomplished a lot back in the early days. I can look around Portland and identify specific projects we accomplished -- bikes on TriMet, the re-do of the massively popular Hawthorne Bridge crossing, the Rose Quarter bike facilities and all the bike lanes put in to comply with the Bike Bill -- including the one I ride practically every work day (unless taking an alternate route). This was because of button-up bicycle advocates and not the lunatic fringe wanting to promote gender equality among whales (a frequent problem with advocacy groups -- fringe interests taking over). Our fearless leaders knew all the ins-and-outs of ISTEA and angles for selling bike projects in a way that meant money for state or local planning bodies. We also caused city planners to educate themselves on bicycle infrastructure -- Mia Burke in particular who turned it into a huge business, Alta Planning. Joerg could go to the people in Folsom and find out exactly how they did all the magical things the people in Cameron Park are too busy golfing or flying to care about. They have enough smart leaders, we don't. He could go there in his stage coach and talk to the country folks, speaking in that special country-folk way. Maybe stop at Costco on the way home. The stage coach folks are in Placerville, Costco is more west in an urban area. Oh, and once they (finally!) finish a bike path from White Rock Road to Costco in Folsom later this year I can indeed get to Costco on ... drum roll ... singletrack! Also to lots of other stores there. I haven't tried at Costco yet but Lowe's, Home Depot and Trader Joe's let me bring the bike inside so I shop there. Walmart doesn't so I mostly don't shop there anymore. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#83
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New bike path
On 3/18/2018 11:39 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-18 08:10, jbeattie wrote: Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ... but your mythical person who would ride if there were infrastructure is not going to be dragging his or her ass over dirt trails to get somewhere. Several did. They are not mythical but real people and are now regularly riding the trails. One even splurged and bought a new and serious MTB. Again, Joerg, you keep pumping out anecdotes. "One guy even bought a bike!!!" or "You should see the trail at rush hour!!" Anyone with less bias and more interested in facts would say "One guy out of 20,000 population?" or "At rush hour, how many people are driving on the road instead of biking on the trail?" Now we even have a bike shop right on that trail, Sam's Town Cyclery. He would not be there if he wasn't sure that that's where MTB riders come by. That's fine. A couple years ago a new bike shop opened adjacent to the longest rail-trail in our area. I know the guy who used to own it. Nice guy; he did some volunteer work with me. He said the shop was doing just fine, including renting bikes to people to use on the trail. But that guy later sold his interest in the shop to his business partner and went on to a job that made more money. And a few months ago, the business partner moved the shop from the trailside to the heart of plaza-land, about five miles away. The business is doing much better now. I'm in favor of people riding bikes - especially if the bike ride replaces a car trip. I'm in favor of bike shops. But bike shops come and bike shops go; and most people using trails for bike rides have _added_ a car trip, to shuttle their bikes to and from the trail. It's folly to think that bike trails are going to generate an America with fewer cars plus lots of thriving bike shops. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#84
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New bike path
Frank Krygowski wrote:
That's fine. A couple years ago a new bike shop opened adjacent to the longest rail-trail in our area. I know the guy who used to own it. Nice guy; he did some volunteer work with me. He said the shop was doing just fine, including renting bikes to people to use on the trail. One should place the shop where people go by bike already, and optimally where people ONLY go by bike (pedestrians are fine), because otherwise the bikers are much fewer and they are occupied with the traffic, they won't see or stop to access the shop in as relaxed a manner. Also it is good to place the shop next to some popular and accessible place, for example the city public library, so people can turn in the bike for some minor fix, go to the library, then get it when they are done. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 |
#85
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New bike path
On 2018-03-18 09:22, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/18/2018 11:39 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-03-18 08:10, jbeattie wrote: ... but your mythical person who would ride if there were infrastructure is not going to be dragging his or her ass over dirt trails to get somewhere. Several did. They are not mythical but real people and are now regularly riding the trails. One even splurged and bought a new and serious MTB. Again, Joerg, you keep pumping out anecdotes. "One guy even bought a bike!!!" or "You should see the trail at rush hour!!" Anyone with less bias and more interested in facts would say "One guy out of 20,000 population?" or "At rush hour, how many people are driving on the road instead of biking on the trail?" You really don't get it, do you? I have brought numerous examples over time here and it's all evidenced by two (2!) bike shops opening in this little village. 15 years ago there were none. Now we even have a bike shop right on that trail, Sam's Town Cyclery. He would not be there if he wasn't sure that that's where MTB riders come by. That's fine. A couple years ago a new bike shop opened adjacent to the longest rail-trail in our area. I know the guy who used to own it. Nice guy; he did some volunteer work with me. He said the shop was doing just fine, including renting bikes to people to use on the trail. See? But that guy later sold his interest in the shop to his business partner and went on to a job that made more money. And a few months ago, the business partner moved the shop from the trailside to the heart of plaza-land, about five miles away. The business is doing much better now. Sam's Cyclery in Cameron Park moved from a shopping area in town _to_ the trail. I'm in favor of people riding bikes - especially if the bike ride replaces a car trip. I'm in favor of bike shops. But bike shops come and bike shops go; and most people using trails for bike rides have _added_ a car trip, to shuttle their bikes to and from the trail. And why do they do that? Because they do not feel safe on most roads. If we had proper bike paths and lanes they would be willing to cycle. I can't even count anymore how many cyclists I have tried to convince heading to the singletrack that runs through town by bike. I personally do not like riding on high speed thoroughfares myself if they don't have bike lanes or at least wide enough shoulders. However, I do it anyhow. Most others don't. So now I usually meet them at one of the areas where there is trail parking. Which happens to be ... tadaaaa ... excatly where Sam's Cyclery is now. They truck the bikes there, I ride mine there. It's folly to think that bike trails are going to generate an America with fewer cars plus lots of thriving bike shops. It does work here. Not fewer cars but more cycling. For me it has turned from next to nothing to 4000mi/year while my car has dropped to less than 1000mi/year. One core reason can be summed up in two words: Bike paths. In my case mostly singletrack but that's just my preference. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#86
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New bike path
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 10:46:25 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 3/18/2018 6:04 AM, John B. wrote: On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 23:11:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/17/2018 11:06 AM, Joerg wrote: There will always be areas where it doesn't work... Well, THERE'S a statement I can agree with! I'd say it applies to countless areas! or, like in Milton Keynes, the design gets largely messed up and then people don't use it. Very few people claim that Stevenage's and Milton Keynes' designs were "messed up." They (or at least Stevenage, which I'm more familiar with) were state of the art, matching or exceeding what was done in the Netherlands at the time. The "messed up" part was the automobile facility system. It was too good. Since motoring was not dissuaded, people chose to drive cars. It's thoroughly explained he www.roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/stevenage/ I think that the point is that people are inherently lazy, for want of a better description. Yes, most people are inherently lazy. Joerg claims that if the government puts in lots of bike paths, people will use their cars a lot less. They'll take to bicycling in droves. Perhaps he also thinks that if building designers would just put in extra stairways, people would stop using elevators. I taught at a university. I had two offices, one on the third floor and one on the fourth. Yes, I usually used the stairs. But I usually had them to myself. And there were many times I saw people use the elevator to go up or down just one floor. The other day my wife was talking to a friend and mentioned that I often rode a bicycle for an hour and the friend was amazed that anyone could ride a bicycle for a whole hour. Oh! Such a long ride! I doubt that these sort of people, and my guess is that they greatly outnumber those who might embark on such a long ride, will ever become a cyclist Mups or no Mups. -- Cheers, John B. |
#87
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New bike path
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 10:05:02 -0700, Joerg
wrote: On 2018-03-18 09:22, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/18/2018 11:39 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-03-18 08:10, jbeattie wrote: ... but your mythical person who would ride if there were infrastructure is not going to be dragging his or her ass over dirt trails to get somewhere. Several did. They are not mythical but real people and are now regularly riding the trails. One even splurged and bought a new and serious MTB. Again, Joerg, you keep pumping out anecdotes. "One guy even bought a bike!!!" or "You should see the trail at rush hour!!" Anyone with less bias and more interested in facts would say "One guy out of 20,000 population?" or "At rush hour, how many people are driving on the road instead of biking on the trail?" You really don't get it, do you? I have brought numerous examples over time here and it's all evidenced by two (2!) bike shops opening in this little village. 15 years ago there were none. Now we even have a bike shop right on that trail, Sam's Town Cyclery. He would not be there if he wasn't sure that that's where MTB riders come by. That's fine. A couple years ago a new bike shop opened adjacent to the longest rail-trail in our area. I know the guy who used to own it. Nice guy; he did some volunteer work with me. He said the shop was doing just fine, including renting bikes to people to use on the trail. See? But that guy later sold his interest in the shop to his business partner and went on to a job that made more money. And a few months ago, the business partner moved the shop from the trailside to the heart of plaza-land, about five miles away. The business is doing much better now. Sam's Cyclery in Cameron Park moved from a shopping area in town _to_ the trail. I'm in favor of people riding bikes - especially if the bike ride replaces a car trip. I'm in favor of bike shops. But bike shops come and bike shops go; and most people using trails for bike rides have _added_ a car trip, to shuttle their bikes to and from the trail. And why do they do that? Because they do not feel safe on most roads. If we had proper bike paths and lanes they would be willing to cycle. I can't even count anymore how many cyclists I have tried to convince heading to the singletrack that runs through town by bike. I personally do not like riding on high speed thoroughfares myself if they don't have bike lanes or at least wide enough shoulders. However, I do it anyhow. Most others don't. So now I usually meet them at one of the areas where there is trail parking. Which happens to be ... tadaaaa ... excatly where Sam's Cyclery is now. They truck the bikes there, I ride mine there. It's folly to think that bike trails are going to generate an America with fewer cars plus lots of thriving bike shops. It does work here. Not fewer cars but more cycling. For me it has turned from next to nothing to 4000mi/year while my car has dropped to less than 1000mi/year. One core reason can be summed up in two words: Bike paths. In my case mostly singletrack but that's just my preference. One wonders, with all these bicycle paths why you have two SUV's in the garage. In fact, given that you only drive 1/5th of the time wouldn't it be cheaper to rent a car for the few times that you want to drive? -- Cheers, John B. |
#88
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New bike path
On Sunday, March 18, 2018 at 10:05:08 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-03-18 09:22, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/18/2018 11:39 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-03-18 08:10, jbeattie wrote: ... but your mythical person who would ride if there were infrastructure is not going to be dragging his or her ass over dirt trails to get somewhere. Several did. They are not mythical but real people and are now regularly riding the trails. One even splurged and bought a new and serious MTB. Again, Joerg, you keep pumping out anecdotes. "One guy even bought a bike!!!" or "You should see the trail at rush hour!!" Anyone with less bias and more interested in facts would say "One guy out of 20,000 population?" or "At rush hour, how many people are driving on the road instead of biking on the trail?" You really don't get it, do you? I have brought numerous examples over time here and it's all evidenced by two (2!) bike shops opening in this little village. 15 years ago there were none. Now we even have a bike shop right on that trail, Sam's Town Cyclery. He would not be there if he wasn't sure that that's where MTB riders come by. That's fine. A couple years ago a new bike shop opened adjacent to the longest rail-trail in our area. I know the guy who used to own it. Nice guy; he did some volunteer work with me. He said the shop was doing just fine, including renting bikes to people to use on the trail. See? But that guy later sold his interest in the shop to his business partner and went on to a job that made more money. And a few months ago, the business partner moved the shop from the trailside to the heart of plaza-land, about five miles away. The business is doing much better now. Sam's Cyclery in Cameron Park moved from a shopping area in town _to_ the trail. I'm in favor of people riding bikes - especially if the bike ride replaces a car trip. I'm in favor of bike shops. But bike shops come and bike shops go; and most people using trails for bike rides have _added_ a car trip, to shuttle their bikes to and from the trail. And why do they do that? Because they do not feel safe on most roads. If we had proper bike paths and lanes they would be willing to cycle. I can't even count anymore how many cyclists I have tried to convince heading to the singletrack that runs through town by bike. I personally do not like riding on high speed thoroughfares myself if they don't have bike lanes or at least wide enough shoulders. However, I do it anyhow. Most others don't. So now I usually meet them at one of the areas where there is trail parking. Which happens to be ... tadaaaa ... excatly where Sam's Cyclery is now. They truck the bikes there, I ride mine there. It's folly to think that bike trails are going to generate an America with fewer cars plus lots of thriving bike shops. It does work here. Not fewer cars but more cycling. For me it has turned from next to nothing to 4000mi/year while my car has dropped to less than 1000mi/year. One core reason can be summed up in two words: Bike paths. In my case mostly singletrack but that's just my preference. O.K., so to summarize, you moved into a former cow pasture turned into an air-park golf course community; you work from home and ride on trails to other urban areas in the Sierra foothills. You ride with twenty pounds or more of special equipment, including first-aid kits, rope, a giant battery and light and need double suspension to manage the terrain. There are mountain lions, and the distances are so great between population areas that you take a gallon or more of water in the summer. Sounds like a perfect commute route, although putting in some bike lanes may attract more riders. We have bike trails with parking lots, too, but they don't do much for relieving traffic congestion, even though some purport to commute on the trails.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_bGCOFCQ0I Judging by where the video ends, the guy probably works at Rapha. No mountain lions, and are inner-city trails are never far from water, usually in puddles. -- Jay Beattie. |
#89
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New bike path
On 3/18/2018 7:32 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 10:46:25 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/18/2018 6:04 AM, John B. wrote: On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 23:11:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/17/2018 11:06 AM, Joerg wrote: There will always be areas where it doesn't work... Well, THERE'S a statement I can agree with! I'd say it applies to countless areas! or, like in Milton Keynes, the design gets largely messed up and then people don't use it. Very few people claim that Stevenage's and Milton Keynes' designs were "messed up." They (or at least Stevenage, which I'm more familiar with) were state of the art, matching or exceeding what was done in the Netherlands at the time. The "messed up" part was the automobile facility system. It was too good. Since motoring was not dissuaded, people chose to drive cars. It's thoroughly explained he www.roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/stevenage/ I think that the point is that people are inherently lazy, for want of a better description. Yes, most people are inherently lazy. Joerg claims that if the government puts in lots of bike paths, people will use their cars a lot less. They'll take to bicycling in droves. Perhaps he also thinks that if building designers would just put in extra stairways, people would stop using elevators. I taught at a university. I had two offices, one on the third floor and one on the fourth. Yes, I usually used the stairs. But I usually had them to myself. And there were many times I saw people use the elevator to go up or down just one floor. The other day my wife was talking to a friend and mentioned that I often rode a bicycle for an hour and the friend was amazed that anyone could ride a bicycle for a whole hour. Oh! Such a long ride! I doubt that these sort of people, and my guess is that they greatly outnumber those who might embark on such a long ride, will ever become a cyclist Mups or no Mups. When my daughter was a very young Girl Scout, we took the troop, their bicycles and a few of their mothers with their bikes to a local rail trail. We all rode 3.5 miles out, then back. Seven miles! The women were amazed! They never thought that it was possible for a non-professional to ride seven miles. I'm quite sure none of those women ever tried it again. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#90
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New bike path
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 22:27:12 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 3/18/2018 7:32 PM, John B. wrote: On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 10:46:25 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/18/2018 6:04 AM, John B. wrote: On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 23:11:05 -0400, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 3/17/2018 11:06 AM, Joerg wrote: There will always be areas where it doesn't work... Well, THERE'S a statement I can agree with! I'd say it applies to countless areas! or, like in Milton Keynes, the design gets largely messed up and then people don't use it. Very few people claim that Stevenage's and Milton Keynes' designs were "messed up." They (or at least Stevenage, which I'm more familiar with) were state of the art, matching or exceeding what was done in the Netherlands at the time. The "messed up" part was the automobile facility system. It was too good. Since motoring was not dissuaded, people chose to drive cars. It's thoroughly explained he www.roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/stevenage/ I think that the point is that people are inherently lazy, for want of a better description. Yes, most people are inherently lazy. Joerg claims that if the government puts in lots of bike paths, people will use their cars a lot less. They'll take to bicycling in droves. Perhaps he also thinks that if building designers would just put in extra stairways, people would stop using elevators. I taught at a university. I had two offices, one on the third floor and one on the fourth. Yes, I usually used the stairs. But I usually had them to myself. And there were many times I saw people use the elevator to go up or down just one floor. The other day my wife was talking to a friend and mentioned that I often rode a bicycle for an hour and the friend was amazed that anyone could ride a bicycle for a whole hour. Oh! Such a long ride! I doubt that these sort of people, and my guess is that they greatly outnumber those who might embark on such a long ride, will ever become a cyclist Mups or no Mups. When my daughter was a very young Girl Scout, we took the troop, their bicycles and a few of their mothers with their bikes to a local rail trail. We all rode 3.5 miles out, then back. Seven miles! The women were amazed! They never thought that it was possible for a non-professional to ride seven miles. I'm quite sure none of those women ever tried it again. Back when I was running I used to run 3.5 miles out and 3.5 miles back :-) -- Cheers, John B. |
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