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Cyclists triggering red light cameras



 
 
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  #61  
Old April 15th 19, 10:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,260
Default Cyclists triggering red light cameras

On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 5:51:21 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 2:49:19 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 12/4/19 4:21 pm, AK wrote:


There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs..

Yes there is. There are many places I've encountered where the buried
vehicle sensors do not reliably detect bicycles, and as a consequence it
is necessary to ignore the lights and proceed with caution.


Guess I am making a distinction between "run" ning lights and stop signs and not officially obeying the law down to the last letter. I think of "run" ning a light or sign as not stopping at all and just blowing right through them. That is wrong. But I consider it OK to not officially obey the letter of the law by a bicycle if they slow down and almost come to a stop but don't at a stop sign. Rolling stop I think its called. And for red lights, stop and look to see if anyone is coming and then cross illegally while the light is red if its safe and not wait for the light to change, if it will ever change if there are those magnets buried in the pavement that cannot detect bikes, only steel cars.


But, how does one determine the circumstances under which one can
selectively disregard the law?

If you steal someone's money can they get a gun and shoot you? I
certainly know people that believe that is justified.

Or perhaps, it is all right to steal from a large business? Apparently
a rather popular pastime from the care most companies take to avoid
theft by employees.


We're talking traffic laws and not employee theft.

We all disregard traffic laws sometimes. We often disregard laws that we don't even know we're disregarding. Motorists have been disregarding traffic laws since there were cars. https://gizmodo.com/on-this-day-in-1...ned-1579044541

Every small infraction does not lead one down the path to grand-theft, rape and murder. Some infractions are bad from a moral or/or safety standpoint -- and others not so much. https://tinyurl.com/yy3ot6g2 (Jeffrey City, Wyoming -- I probably rode my bike through that stop sign).

What I love are motorists who think I'm disregarding the law when I'm not.. Cars will honk when I take a left turn through a red light onto a one-way street. Cars will sit at the light when there is no traffic -- simply because they don't know the traffic law. The maroons should read the paper. https://www.oregonlive.com/commuting...devils_in.html Cars will go ballistic if I get out of the bike lane to pass another bike or avoid hazards. All legal. Most people rant about others breaking the traffic law and don't even know the law.

Now, when I really DO break the law on my bike and get honked at or cited, well that's on me. If I hurt someone in the process, then I bear moral and legal blame. So, I try not to ride in a way that will place anyone, including me, in danger. But when I hit a stop sign with no traffic, I'm not putting my foot down. So far, it has not led me down the slippery slope to Felonyville.

-- Jay Beattie.


I think that I know the laws I'm disregarding most of the time. What ticks me off is waiting at a red light for two cycles and it not changing for a bike, so I roll through it and a cop stops me and says I should wait until a car comes to trigger the light.
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  #62  
Old April 16th 19, 12:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,106
Default Cyclists triggering red light cameras

On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 2:35:07 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 5:51:21 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 2:49:19 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 12/4/19 4:21 pm, AK wrote:


There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs.

Yes there is. There are many places I've encountered where the buried
vehicle sensors do not reliably detect bicycles, and as a consequence it
is necessary to ignore the lights and proceed with caution.


Guess I am making a distinction between "run" ning lights and stop signs and not officially obeying the law down to the last letter. I think of "run" ning a light or sign as not stopping at all and just blowing right through them. That is wrong. But I consider it OK to not officially obey the letter of the law by a bicycle if they slow down and almost come to a stop but don't at a stop sign. Rolling stop I think its called. And for red lights, stop and look to see if anyone is coming and then cross illegally while the light is red if its safe and not wait for the light to change, if it will ever change if there are those magnets buried in the pavement that cannot detect bikes, only steel cars.

But, how does one determine the circumstances under which one can
selectively disregard the law?

If you steal someone's money can they get a gun and shoot you? I
certainly know people that believe that is justified.

Or perhaps, it is all right to steal from a large business? Apparently
a rather popular pastime from the care most companies take to avoid
theft by employees.


We're talking traffic laws and not employee theft.

We all disregard traffic laws sometimes. We often disregard laws that we don't even know we're disregarding. Motorists have been disregarding traffic laws since there were cars. https://gizmodo.com/on-this-day-in-1...ned-1579044541

Every small infraction does not lead one down the path to grand-theft, rape and murder. Some infractions are bad from a moral or/or safety standpoint -- and others not so much. https://tinyurl.com/yy3ot6g2 (Jeffrey City, Wyoming -- I probably rode my bike through that stop sign).

What I love are motorists who think I'm disregarding the law when I'm not. Cars will honk when I take a left turn through a red light onto a one-way street. Cars will sit at the light when there is no traffic -- simply because they don't know the traffic law. The maroons should read the paper. https://www.oregonlive.com/commuting...evils_in..html Cars will go ballistic if I get out of the bike lane to pass another bike or avoid hazards. All legal. Most people rant about others breaking the traffic law and don't even know the law.

Now, when I really DO break the law on my bike and get honked at or cited, well that's on me. If I hurt someone in the process, then I bear moral and legal blame. So, I try not to ride in a way that will place anyone, including me, in danger. But when I hit a stop sign with no traffic, I'm not putting my foot down. So far, it has not led me down the slippery slope to Felonyville.

-- Jay Beattie.


I think that I know the laws I'm disregarding most of the time. What ticks me off is waiting at a red light for two cycles and it not changing for a bike, so I roll through it and a cop stops me and says I should wait until a car comes to trigger the light.


We have a law for that -- and in fact, it is the same law that says you can turn left against the light onto a one way street:

811.360 Vehicle turns permitted at stop light; proceeding against traffic control device; improperly proceeding at stop light; penalty. (1) The driver of a vehicle, subject to this section, who is intending to turn at an intersection where there is a traffic control device showing a steady circular red signal, a steady red bicycle signal or a steady red arrow signal may do any of the following without violating ORS 811.260 and 811.265:

(a) Make a right turn into a two-way street.

(b) Make a right or left turn into a one-way street in the direction of traffic upon the one-way street.

(2) In addition to the provisions of subsection (1) of this section, a bicyclist or motorcyclist does not violate ORS 811.260 and 811.265 if:

(a) The bicyclist or motorcyclist approaches an intersection where there is a traffic control device showing a steady circular red signal, a steady red bicycle signal or a steady red arrow signal;

(b) The traffic control device is controlled by a vehicle detection device;

(c) The bicyclist or motorcyclist comes to a complete stop and waits for the traffic control device to complete one full cycle; and

(d) After the vehicle detection device fails to detect the presence of the bicycle or motorcycle and change the traffic control device to a green signal, the bicyclist or motorcyclist proceeds with caution through the intersection.

(3) A person commits the offense of improperly proceeding at a stop light if the person does any of the following while proceeding as described in this section:

(a) Fails to stop at the light as required.

(b) Fails to exercise caution to avoid an accident.

(c) Disobeys the directions of another traffic control device, other than the device described in subsections (1) and (2) of this section, or a police officer that prohibits the driver, motorcyclist or bicyclist from proceeding.

(d) Fails to yield the right of way to traffic lawfully within the intersection or approaching so close to the intersection as to constitute an immediate hazard.

(4) A driver, motorcyclist or bicyclist who is proceeding as described in this section is also subject to the requirements under ORS 811.028 to stop for a pedestrian before proceeding.

(5) The offense described in this section, improperly proceeding at a stop light, is a Class B traffic violation. [1983 c.338 §628; 1997 c.507 §7; 2003 c.278 §7; 2005 c.746 §3; 2011 c.168 §2; 2015 c.147 §1]


There is no clear authority to go straight through a light if it refuses to change. The "failure to obey a traffic control device" statute just incorporates the statute quoted above -- but it doesn't say that a bike or a car or anyone can go through a light that refuses to change -- at least not until a cop gets the

ORS 811.265

(1) A person commits the offense of driver failure to obey a traffic control device if the person drives a vehicle and the person does any of the following:

(a) Fails to obey the directions of any traffic control device.

(b) Fails to obey any specific traffic control device described in ORS 811.260 (Appropriate driver responses to traffic control devices) in the manner required by that section.

(2) A person is not subject to this section if the person is doing any of the following:

(a) Following the directions of a police officer.

(b) Driving an emergency vehicle or ambulance in accordance with the privileges granted those vehicles under ORS 820.300 (Exemptions from traffic laws).

(c) Properly proceeding on a red light as authorized under ORS 811.360 (Vehicle turns permitted at stop light).

(d) Driving in a funeral procession led by a funeral lead vehicle or under the direction of the driver of a funeral escort vehicle.

(3) The offense described in this section, driver failure to obey a traffic control device, is a Class B traffic violation. [1983 c.338 §608; 1991 c.482 §13; 2015 c.147 §3]


Maybe there is something burried in the VC, but I'm not seeing it.


-- Jay Beattie.
  #63  
Old April 16th 19, 04:30 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,260
Default Cyclists triggering red light cameras

On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 4:47:49 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 2:35:07 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 5:51:21 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 2:49:19 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 12/4/19 4:21 pm, AK wrote:


There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs.

Yes there is. There are many places I've encountered where the buried
vehicle sensors do not reliably detect bicycles, and as a consequence it
is necessary to ignore the lights and proceed with caution.


Guess I am making a distinction between "run" ning lights and stop signs and not officially obeying the law down to the last letter. I think of "run" ning a light or sign as not stopping at all and just blowing right through them. That is wrong. But I consider it OK to not officially obey the letter of the law by a bicycle if they slow down and almost come to a stop but don't at a stop sign. Rolling stop I think its called. And for red lights, stop and look to see if anyone is coming and then cross illegally while the light is red if its safe and not wait for the light to change, if it will ever change if there are those magnets buried in the pavement that cannot detect bikes, only steel cars.

But, how does one determine the circumstances under which one can
selectively disregard the law?

If you steal someone's money can they get a gun and shoot you? I
certainly know people that believe that is justified.

Or perhaps, it is all right to steal from a large business? Apparently
a rather popular pastime from the care most companies take to avoid
theft by employees.

We're talking traffic laws and not employee theft.

We all disregard traffic laws sometimes. We often disregard laws that we don't even know we're disregarding. Motorists have been disregarding traffic laws since there were cars. https://gizmodo.com/on-this-day-in-1...ned-1579044541

Every small infraction does not lead one down the path to grand-theft, rape and murder. Some infractions are bad from a moral or/or safety standpoint -- and others not so much. https://tinyurl.com/yy3ot6g2 (Jeffrey City, Wyoming -- I probably rode my bike through that stop sign).

What I love are motorists who think I'm disregarding the law when I'm not. Cars will honk when I take a left turn through a red light onto a one-way street. Cars will sit at the light when there is no traffic -- simply because they don't know the traffic law. The maroons should read the paper.. https://www.oregonlive.com/commuting...devils_in.html Cars will go ballistic if I get out of the bike lane to pass another bike or avoid hazards. All legal. Most people rant about others breaking the traffic law and don't even know the law.

Now, when I really DO break the law on my bike and get honked at or cited, well that's on me. If I hurt someone in the process, then I bear moral and legal blame. So, I try not to ride in a way that will place anyone, including me, in danger. But when I hit a stop sign with no traffic, I'm not putting my foot down. So far, it has not led me down the slippery slope to Felonyville.

-- Jay Beattie.


I think that I know the laws I'm disregarding most of the time. What ticks me off is waiting at a red light for two cycles and it not changing for a bike, so I roll through it and a cop stops me and says I should wait until a car comes to trigger the light.


We have a law for that -- and in fact, it is the same law that says you can turn left against the light onto a one way street:

811.360 Vehicle turns permitted at stop light; proceeding against traffic control device; improperly proceeding at stop light; penalty. (1) The driver of a vehicle, subject to this section, who is intending to turn at an intersection where there is a traffic control device showing a steady circular red signal, a steady red bicycle signal or a steady red arrow signal may do any of the following without violating ORS 811.260 and 811.265:

(a) Make a right turn into a two-way street.

(b) Make a right or left turn into a one-way street in the direction of traffic upon the one-way street.

(2) In addition to the provisions of subsection (1) of this section, a bicyclist or motorcyclist does not violate ORS 811.260 and 811.265 if:

(a) The bicyclist or motorcyclist approaches an intersection where there is a traffic control device showing a steady circular red signal, a steady red bicycle signal or a steady red arrow signal;

(b) The traffic control device is controlled by a vehicle detection device;

(c) The bicyclist or motorcyclist comes to a complete stop and waits for the traffic control device to complete one full cycle; and

(d) After the vehicle detection device fails to detect the presence of the bicycle or motorcycle and change the traffic control device to a green signal, the bicyclist or motorcyclist proceeds with caution through the intersection.

(3) A person commits the offense of improperly proceeding at a stop light if the person does any of the following while proceeding as described in this section:

(a) Fails to stop at the light as required.

(b) Fails to exercise caution to avoid an accident.

(c) Disobeys the directions of another traffic control device, other than the device described in subsections (1) and (2) of this section, or a police officer that prohibits the driver, motorcyclist or bicyclist from proceeding.

(d) Fails to yield the right of way to traffic lawfully within the intersection or approaching so close to the intersection as to constitute an immediate hazard.

(4) A driver, motorcyclist or bicyclist who is proceeding as described in this section is also subject to the requirements under ORS 811.028 to stop for a pedestrian before proceeding.

(5) The offense described in this section, improperly proceeding at a stop light, is a Class B traffic violation. [1983 c.338 §628; 1997 c.507 §7; 2003 c.278 §7; 2005 c.746 §3; 2011 c.168 §2; 2015 c.147 §1]


There is no clear authority to go straight through a light if it refuses to change. The "failure to obey a traffic control device" statute just incorporates the statute quoted above -- but it doesn't say that a bike or a car or anyone can go through a light that refuses to change -- at least not until a cop gets the

ORS 811.265

(1) A person commits the offense of driver failure to obey a traffic control device if the person drives a vehicle and the person does any of the following:

(a) Fails to obey the directions of any traffic control device.

(b) Fails to obey any specific traffic control device described in ORS 811.260 (Appropriate driver responses to traffic control devices) in the manner required by that section.

(2) A person is not subject to this section if the person is doing any of the following:

(a) Following the directions of a police officer.

(b) Driving an emergency vehicle or ambulance in accordance with the privileges granted those vehicles under ORS 820.300 (Exemptions from traffic laws).

(c) Properly proceeding on a red light as authorized under ORS 811.360 (Vehicle turns permitted at stop light).

(d) Driving in a funeral procession led by a funeral lead vehicle or under the direction of the driver of a funeral escort vehicle.

(3) The offense described in this section, driver failure to obey a traffic control device, is a Class B traffic violation. [1983 c.338 §608; 1991 c.482 §13; 2015 c.147 §3]


Maybe there is something burried in the VC, but I'm not seeing it.


-- Jay Beattie.


While on a century Saturday there was one really busy main street and a T we were exiting onto the busy street. There was a cop there but the traffic appeared to be completely ignoring him and traveling well above the speed limit. And opening came and 5 of us started proceeding across and of-damn-course I missed clipping in and the other foot unclipped. So here I am rolling across the damn intersection at 3 mph trying to clip in both feet at once.. Just made it. But the traffic had no intentions of slowing up despite their over-the-limit speed and a cop sitting right square in the middle of the street.

This is California for you.
  #64  
Old April 16th 19, 07:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,487
Default Cyclists triggering red light cameras

On 4/16/2019 11:30 AM, wrote:
On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 4:47:49 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 2:35:07 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 5:51:21 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 4:29:24 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, April 12, 2019 at 2:49:19 AM UTC-5, James wrote:
On 12/4/19 4:21 pm, AK wrote:


There is no valid excuse for cyclists to run lights and stop signs.

Yes there is. There are many places I've encountered where the buried
vehicle sensors do not reliably detect bicycles, and as a consequence it
is necessary to ignore the lights and proceed with caution.


Guess I am making a distinction between "run" ning lights and stop signs and not officially obeying the law down to the last letter. I think of "run" ning a light or sign as not stopping at all and just blowing right through them. That is wrong. But I consider it OK to not officially obey the letter of the law by a bicycle if they slow down and almost come to a stop but don't at a stop sign. Rolling stop I think its called. And for red lights, stop and look to see if anyone is coming and then cross illegally while the light is red if its safe and not wait for the light to change, if it will ever change if there are those magnets buried in the pavement that cannot detect bikes, only steel cars.

But, how does one determine the circumstances under which one can
selectively disregard the law?

If you steal someone's money can they get a gun and shoot you? I
certainly know people that believe that is justified.

Or perhaps, it is all right to steal from a large business? Apparently
a rather popular pastime from the care most companies take to avoid
theft by employees.

We're talking traffic laws and not employee theft.

We all disregard traffic laws sometimes. We often disregard laws that we don't even know we're disregarding. Motorists have been disregarding traffic laws since there were cars.
https://gizmodo.com/on-this-day-in-1...ned-1579044541

Every small infraction does not lead one down the path to grand-theft, rape and murder. Some infractions are bad from a moral or/or safety standpoint -- and others not so much. https://tinyurl.com/yy3ot6g2 (Jeffrey City, Wyoming -- I probably rode my bike through that stop sign).

What I love are motorists who think I'm disregarding the law when I'm not. Cars will honk when I take a left turn through a red light onto a one-way street. Cars will sit at the light when there is no traffic -- simply because they don't know the traffic law. The maroons should read the paper. https://www.oregonlive.com/commuting...devils_in.html Cars will go ballistic if I get out of the bike lane to pass another bike or avoid hazards. All legal. Most people rant about others breaking the traffic law and don't even know the law.

Now, when I really DO break the law on my bike and get honked at or cited, well that's on me. If I hurt someone in the process, then I bear moral and legal blame. So, I try not to ride in a way that will place anyone, including me, in danger. But when I hit a stop sign with no traffic, I'm not putting my foot down. So far, it has not led me down the slippery slope to Felonyville.

-- Jay Beattie.

I think that I know the laws I'm disregarding most of the time. What ticks me off is waiting at a red light for two cycles and it not changing for a bike, so I roll through it and a cop stops me and says I should wait until a car comes to trigger the light.


We have a law for that -- and in fact, it is the same law that says you can turn left against the light onto a one way street:

811.360 Vehicle turns permitted at stop light; proceeding against traffic control device; improperly proceeding at stop light; penalty. (1) The driver of a vehicle, subject to this section, who is intending to turn at an intersection where there is a traffic control device showing a steady circular red signal, a steady red bicycle signal or a steady red arrow signal may do any of the following without violating ORS 811.260 and 811.265:

(a) Make a right turn into a two-way street.

(b) Make a right or left turn into a one-way street in the direction of traffic upon the one-way street.

(2) In addition to the provisions of subsection (1) of this section, a bicyclist or motorcyclist does not violate ORS 811.260 and 811.265 if:

(a) The bicyclist or motorcyclist approaches an intersection where there is a traffic control device showing a steady circular red signal, a steady red bicycle signal or a steady red arrow signal;

(b) The traffic control device is controlled by a vehicle detection device;

(c) The bicyclist or motorcyclist comes to a complete stop and waits for the traffic control device to complete one full cycle; and

(d) After the vehicle detection device fails to detect the presence of the bicycle or motorcycle and change the traffic control device to a green signal, the bicyclist or motorcyclist proceeds with caution through the intersection.

(3) A person commits the offense of improperly proceeding at a stop light if the person does any of the following while proceeding as described in this section:

(a) Fails to stop at the light as required.

(b) Fails to exercise caution to avoid an accident.

(c) Disobeys the directions of another traffic control device, other than the device described in subsections (1) and (2) of this section, or a police officer that prohibits the driver, motorcyclist or bicyclist from proceeding.

(d) Fails to yield the right of way to traffic lawfully within the intersection or approaching so close to the intersection as to constitute an immediate hazard.

(4) A driver, motorcyclist or bicyclist who is proceeding as described in this section is also subject to the requirements under ORS 811.028 to stop for a pedestrian before proceeding.

(5) The offense described in this section, improperly proceeding at a stop light, is a Class B traffic violation. [1983 c.338 §628; 1997 c.507 §7; 2003 c.278 §7; 2005 c.746 §3; 2011 c.168 §2; 2015 c.147 §1]


There is no clear authority to go straight through a light if it refuses to change. The "failure to obey a traffic control device" statute just incorporates the statute quoted above -- but it doesn't say that a bike or a car or anyone can go through a light that refuses to change -- at least not until a cop gets the

ORS 811.265

(1) A person commits the offense of driver failure to obey a traffic control device if the person drives a vehicle and the person does any of the following:

(a) Fails to obey the directions of any traffic control device.

(b) Fails to obey any specific traffic control device described in ORS 811.260 (Appropriate driver responses to traffic control devices) in the manner required by that section.

(2) A person is not subject to this section if the person is doing any of the following:

(a) Following the directions of a police officer.

(b) Driving an emergency vehicle or ambulance in accordance with the privileges granted those vehicles under ORS 820.300 (Exemptions from traffic laws).

(c) Properly proceeding on a red light as authorized under ORS 811.360 (Vehicle turns permitted at stop light).

(d) Driving in a funeral procession led by a funeral lead vehicle or under the direction of the driver of a funeral escort vehicle.

(3) The offense described in this section, driver failure to obey a traffic control device, is a Class B traffic violation. [1983 c.338 §608; 1991 c.482 §13; 2015 c.147 §3]


Maybe there is something burried in the VC, but I'm not seeing it.


-- Jay Beattie.


While on a century Saturday there was one really busy main street and a T we were exiting onto the busy street. There was a cop there but the traffic appeared to be completely ignoring him and traveling well above the speed limit. And opening came and 5 of us started proceeding across and of-damn-course I missed clipping in and the other foot unclipped. So here I am rolling across the damn intersection at 3 mph trying to clip in both feet at once. Just made it. But the traffic had no intentions of slowing up despite their over-the-limit speed and a cop sitting right square in the middle of the street.

This is California for you.


You need to move out of that hellhole.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #65  
Old April 17th 19, 06:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doc O'Leary[_21_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 25
Default Cyclists triggering red light cameras

For your reference, records indicate that
John B. wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 16:09:59 -0000 (UTC), Doc O'Leary
wrote:

My point remains that an obsession with petty criminals is misguided.
Nobody should pat themselves on the back for honking at a cyclist that
safely rolls a STOP sign (or a car doing the same, for that matter),
just like they shouldn’t act like stopping Patty the pencil thief is a
major bust.


You use the word "obsession" as though it meant "obsession with only
major criminals" .


No I mean “obsession” in the sense of *any* minor social infraction
being overblown into a reaction that is disproportionate with the
offense. It’s about how thin skinned people have seemed to become in
the last 10 years.

who decides who and what is major.
Can we
say that anything less is inconsequential? Or do we use the term
"everyone knows" to decide what to condemn?


Your “just asking question” tactic is poor rhetoric. We *all* decide
these things. If you’re unwilling to answer those questions yourself,
you shouldn’t be asking them.

Someone who "rolls a stop" is committing a minor sin, unless it
doesn't turn out to have been safe and someone is badly injured or
dies as a result.


Yep. That’s the way reality works. Just like buying a lottery ticket doesn’t automatically make you a winner.

Please note that it isn't usually determined to have been unsafe un
till after the accident happens.


Again, welcome to reality. Are you trying to make some point?

I see. Given that although the California Highway Patrol in their
investigation of bicycle-motor vehicle collisions in L.A. County
determined that some 60% were caused by the bicycle no serious fuss
should be made?


Possibly. Just because someone gets blamed for something doesn’t
necessarily mean they are actually at fault (bikes seldom get parity
justice), or there wasn’t some other root cause (e.g., drinking). It’s
like speeding. In and of itself, it is usually not the *cause* of a
crash, but it can definitely affect the circumstances of a crash.
Likewise, I seriously doubt simply being on a bike magically made
people crash into cars (or vice versa).

Simply ignore the cause of more then half of all bicycle (in L.A.)
collisions over a period of a year were the fault of the bicycle?


Maybe. If it had more to do with the people than the vehicle, it
doesn’t make much sense to blame the dumb machine. Pickup trucks are
disproportionately the vehicles involved when I’m harassed while
biking. I’d be an idiot if I mistook that correlation for causation.
Try not to do that yourself.

--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly


  #66  
Old April 17th 19, 10:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,260
Default Cyclists triggering red light cameras

On Tuesday, April 16, 2019 at 10:12:15 PM UTC-7, Doc O'Leary wrote:
For your reference, records indicate that
John B. wrote:

On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 16:09:59 -0000 (UTC), Doc O'Leary
wrote:

My point remains that an obsession with petty criminals is misguided.
Nobody should pat themselves on the back for honking at a cyclist that
safely rolls a STOP sign (or a car doing the same, for that matter),
just like they shouldn’t act like stopping Patty the pencil thief is a
major bust.


You use the word "obsession" as though it meant "obsession with only
major criminals" .


No I mean “obsession” in the sense of *any* minor social infraction
being overblown into a reaction that is disproportionate with the
offense. It’s about how thin skinned people have seemed to become in
the last 10 years.

who decides who and what is major.
Can we
say that anything less is inconsequential? Or do we use the term
"everyone knows" to decide what to condemn?


Your “just asking question” tactic is poor rhetoric. We *all* decide
these things. If you’re unwilling to answer those questions yourself,
you shouldn’t be asking them.

Someone who "rolls a stop" is committing a minor sin, unless it
doesn't turn out to have been safe and someone is badly injured or
dies as a result.


Yep. That’s the way reality works. Just like buying a lottery ticket doesn’t automatically make you a winner.

Please note that it isn't usually determined to have been unsafe un
till after the accident happens.


Again, welcome to reality. Are you trying to make some point?

I see. Given that although the California Highway Patrol in their
investigation of bicycle-motor vehicle collisions in L.A. County
determined that some 60% were caused by the bicycle no serious fuss
should be made?


Possibly. Just because someone gets blamed for something doesn’t
necessarily mean they are actually at fault (bikes seldom get parity
justice), or there wasn’t some other root cause (e.g., drinking). It’s
like speeding. In and of itself, it is usually not the *cause* of a
crash, but it can definitely affect the circumstances of a crash.
Likewise, I seriously doubt simply being on a bike magically made
people crash into cars (or vice versa).

Simply ignore the cause of more then half of all bicycle (in L.A.)
collisions over a period of a year were the fault of the bicycle?


Maybe. If it had more to do with the people than the vehicle, it
doesn’t make much sense to blame the dumb machine. Pickup trucks are
disproportionately the vehicles involved when I’m harassed while
biking. I’d be an idiot if I mistook that correlation for causation.
Try not to do that yourself.

--
"Also . . . I can kill you with my brain."
River Tam, Trash, Firefly


I wouldn't worry too much about it Doc. While it may **** you off at the time someone passing too closely or honking at you soon disappears in your memory. And I think about some of the stupid things drivers do and on reflection, they were acting not dangerously at all. Someone taking a close pass is often people who are unaware that if you stare at a cyclist to make sure you miss them that you steer very close to them while doing so.

90% of the problems with cars do not really involve safety and it is the other 10% that we should focus on. Unfortunately that would involve having the cooperation of the police and in California you in general do not have that.
 




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