A Cycling & bikes forum. CycleBanter.com

Go Back   Home » CycleBanter.com forum » rec.bicycles » Racing
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old May 28th 07, 02:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
RicodJour
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,142
Default If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...

On May 27, 8:44 pm, Doug Taylor wrote:
On 27 May 2007 10:24:14 -0700, Bill C wrote:

Fair and just due process is just that, and should be accorded to
everyone in all cases, not just serious criminal cases.


"Fair and just due process?" Who cares? It's PRIVATE and totally
their call. And, the system arguably is more successful preventing
performance enhancing drug use than any other US Pro sport, or any
sport.


Many would say that private, whether capitalized or not, more or less
equates to fair and just. Assuming all of the other stuff is fair and
just.

While you're crowing about the silly yankee-pig-dog sport of American
football, everyone is already way ahead of you in agreeing that the
cyclists unions sucks. Besides that, the same stuff goes on (the
article is a couple of years old, but it's not necessary for me to do
your research for you):
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in683747.shtml

BTW, Fijian canoe racing is remarkably free of drugs, except for the
chain-chuggin of kava.

Good for them, I say. Better for the players, the owners, AND the
fans.


Yay!

R

Ads
  #62  
Old May 28th 07, 03:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Bill C
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,199
Default If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...

On May 27, 8:44 pm, Doug Taylor wrote:
On 27 May 2007 10:24:14 -0700, Bill C wrote:



Fair and just due process is just that, and should be accorded to
everyone in all cases, not just serious criminal cases.


Well, dude, good thing you are just another nerd posting on usenet and
not a competing in the NFL, which has one of the more successful and
acclaimed anti-performance enhancing drug policies.

Again, unlike the criminal justice system, where the concept of due
process is key in any free or enlightened society, the NFL is strictly
private: they can do whatever they want, subject to acceptance by the
player's union.

All players in the League are tested once a year, and are subject to
weekly random tests during the pre-season, season, and post season.
If a player refuses a test or tests positive, bingo, GUILTY. No
Johnny Cochran calling the procedure or the science into question. No
circus. No assassination of the character of witnesses. The player
is immediately subject to sanctions; although they have the right of
appeal to the NFL commissioner. Lots of luck, there.

"Fair and just due process?" Who cares? It's PRIVATE and totally
their call. And, the system arguably is more successful preventing
performance enhancing drug use than any other US Pro sport, or any
sport.

Good for them, I say. Better for the players, the owners, AND the
fans.


Do you REALLY think the NFL testing policy catches anyone but complete
morons, and actually works to clean up the sport?
Of course the massively powerful NFLPA signed onto it because it's
nothing more than a PR gimmick.
Check out section 1C in particular:

http://www.nflpa.org/pdfs/RulesAndRe...olicy_2006.pdf
Notice that the NFLPA can unilaterally remove a lab from doing
testing and they then negotiate on another lab.

Here's the steroids stuff:
Notice it's urine only and full of holes.
http://www.nflpa.org/pdfs/RulesAndRe...Substances.pdf

Really strong union, good PR, protection from abuses, and very little
chance of catching anyone who isn't a complete imbecile ifor either
rec drugs or steroid related stuff.
Cycling basically had this policy before all the scandals started.
You think there's any chance in hell of implementing anything close
to cycling's program in any major US sport? I'll give you a hint both
the NFLPA and MLBPA have said hell will be frozen over before they
allow blood testing.
The Unions here provide the balance that is totally absent in
cycling.
Bill C
Bill C

  #63  
Old May 28th 07, 06:18 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Ryan Cousineau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,383
Default If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...

In article .com,
Bill C wrote:

On May 27, 8:44 pm, Doug Taylor wrote:
On 27 May 2007 10:24:14 -0700, Bill C wrote:



Fair and just due process is just that, and should be accorded to
everyone in all cases, not just serious criminal cases.


Well, dude, good thing you are just another nerd posting on usenet and
not a competing in the NFL, which has one of the more successful and
acclaimed anti-performance enhancing drug policies.

Again, unlike the criminal justice system, where the concept of due
process is key in any free or enlightened society, the NFL is strictly
private: they can do whatever they want, subject to acceptance by the
player's union.

All players in the League are tested once a year, and are subject to
weekly random tests during the pre-season, season, and post season.
If a player refuses a test or tests positive, bingo, GUILTY. No
Johnny Cochran calling the procedure or the science into question. No
circus. No assassination of the character of witnesses. The player
is immediately subject to sanctions; although they have the right of
appeal to the NFL commissioner. Lots of luck, there.

"Fair and just due process?" Who cares? It's PRIVATE and totally
their call. And, the system arguably is more successful preventing
performance enhancing drug use than any other US Pro sport, or any
sport.

Good for them, I say. Better for the players, the owners, AND the
fans.


Do you REALLY think the NFL testing policy catches anyone but complete
morons, and actually works to clean up the sport?
Of course the massively powerful NFLPA signed onto it because it's
nothing more than a PR gimmick.
Check out section 1C in particular:

http://www.nflpa.org/pdfs/RulesAndRe...olicy_2006.pdf
Notice that the NFLPA can unilaterally remove a lab from doing
testing and they then negotiate on another lab.

Here's the steroids stuff:
Notice it's urine only and full of holes.
http://www.nflpa.org/pdfs/RulesAndRe...Substances.pdf


The science here is beyond me: what holes do you see in their
'roid-testing regimen?

I would note that I suspect the aerobic enhancements of EPO would be of
minimal benefit to any football player.

Really strong union, good PR, protection from abuses, and very little
chance of catching anyone who isn't a complete imbecile ifor either
rec drugs or steroid related stuff.
Cycling basically had this policy before all the scandals started.
You think there's any chance in hell of implementing anything close
to cycling's program in any major US sport? I'll give you a hint both
the NFLPA and MLBPA have said hell will be frozen over before they
allow blood testing.


--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
  #64  
Old May 28th 07, 06:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Ryan Cousineau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,383
Default If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...

In article . com,
RicodJour wrote:

On May 27, 8:44 pm, Doug Taylor wrote:
On 27 May 2007 10:24:14 -0700, Bill C wrote:

Fair and just due process is just that, and should be accorded to
everyone in all cases, not just serious criminal cases.


"Fair and just due process?" Who cares? It's PRIVATE and totally
their call. And, the system arguably is more successful preventing
performance enhancing drug use than any other US Pro sport, or any
sport.


Many would say that private, whether capitalized or not, more or less
equates to fair and just. Assuming all of the other stuff is fair and
just.

While you're crowing about the silly yankee-pig-dog sport of American
football, everyone is already way ahead of you in agreeing that the
cyclists unions sucks. Besides that, the same stuff goes on (the
article is a couple of years old, but it's not necessary for me to do
your research for you):
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in683747.shtml


Would it give an advantage? "Yes," says Black, who speaks from personal
experience. While directing a drug-testing lab at Vanderbilt University,
he took some Stanozolol for research purposes.

"I must have been around 40 when I was injected with Stanozolol," says
Black. "And I pretty much felt like I was 18 again.

LIVEDRUNK does not endorse drug use, even the really good ones.

What?

Good for them, I say. Better for the players, the owners, AND the
fans.


Yay!


Rico: what's the average life expectancy of an NFL football player?

Better for the players,

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos
  #65  
Old May 28th 07, 08:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 631
Default If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...

On May 28, 7:20 am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:

Rico: what's the average life expectancy of an NFL football player?


A possibly more relevant question is how it compares to other sports:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=17436206


  #66  
Old May 28th 07, 10:42 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Bill C
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,199
Default If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...

On May 28, 1:18 am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In article .com,
Bill C wrote:





On May 27, 8:44 pm, Doug Taylor wrote:
On 27 May 2007 10:24:14 -0700, Bill C wrote:


Fair and just due process is just that, and should be accorded to
everyone in all cases, not just serious criminal cases.


Well, dude, good thing you are just another nerd posting on usenet and
not a competing in the NFL, which has one of the more successful and
acclaimed anti-performance enhancing drug policies.


Again, unlike the criminal justice system, where the concept of due
process is key in any free or enlightened society, the NFL is strictly
private: they can do whatever they want, subject to acceptance by the
player's union.


All players in the League are tested once a year, and are subject to
weekly random tests during the pre-season, season, and post season.
If a player refuses a test or tests positive, bingo, GUILTY. No
Johnny Cochran calling the procedure or the science into question. No
circus. No assassination of the character of witnesses. The player
is immediately subject to sanctions; although they have the right of
appeal to the NFL commissioner. Lots of luck, there.


"Fair and just due process?" Who cares? It's PRIVATE and totally
their call. And, the system arguably is more successful preventing
performance enhancing drug use than any other US Pro sport, or any
sport.


Good for them, I say. Better for the players, the owners, AND the
fans.


Do you REALLY think the NFL testing policy catches anyone but complete
morons, and actually works to clean up the sport?
Of course the massively powerful NFLPA signed onto it because it's
nothing more than a PR gimmick.
Check out section 1C in particular:


http://www.nflpa.org/pdfs/RulesAndRe...olicy_2006.pdf
Notice that the NFLPA can unilaterally remove a lab from doing
testing and they then negotiate on another lab.


Here's the steroids stuff:
Notice it's urine only and full of holes.
http://www.nflpa.org/pdfs/RulesAndRe...Substances.pdf


The science here is beyond me: what holes do you see in their
'roid-testing regimen?

I would note that I suspect the aerobic enhancements of EPO would be of
minimal benefit to any football player.


Ryan Cousineau /
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Hey Ryan
A lot of the newer water based steroids are gone in days at most from
your system and then a lot of the newer stuff won't show on urine
tests, just blood.
So these guys are all millionaires with access to serious newer drugs
that you aren't going to find using a urine test at all too.
About the only way to get caught is to be taking old oil based ****
and only an idiot is doing that. The people like Alzado and others
admitted using Hgh way back when and the NFL still doesn't test for it
and is hostile to the concept.

http://www.charlotte.com/456/story/69486.html

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...9A83414B7F0000
Quoted:
Still, the cat-and-mouse game that is athletic drug testing continues.
The trouble is that the mice are fast-moving targets that never stop
evolving. "We're looking forward for our next research project, and
that includes looking for other designer steroids," Catlin reports.
Perhaps they can pounce before the mouse disappears.

and that's the core problem. Both baseball and the NFL are using urine
testing which is less effective and most any change to the policy has
to be renegotiated with the unions who aren't going to give an inch
until they are absolutely forced to.
If and when a few people get caught, switch to something else and
keep going. Neither sport is interested in getting into, or will allow
the mess cycling is in to happen to it. They'll keep spinning a
testing program just good enough to catch the blatant idiots and
that'll keep the good PR going even though it really isn't doing much.
The other side is that they are allowed, especially in football, to
take so many drugs, painkillers etc...that what'd light up a Wada test
is all perfectly good and covered for them. If they banned opiates and
other painkillers you'd have to double the roster sizes just to have
bodies that could play.
I don't think anyone takes either sports testing program seriously as
science, or enforcement in private.
Bill C

  #67  
Old May 28th 07, 08:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Doug Taylor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 430
Default If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...

On 27 May 2007 19:12:10 -0700, Bill C wrote:

Do you REALLY think the NFL testing policy catches anyone but complete
morons, and actually works to clean up the sport?


Who knows? It is reputed to be the most successful of the three major
US Pro sports. But maybe it's total b.s. as you imply.

My central point, in reply to another post, was that the principle of
"due process" which exists in the US criminal justice system, does not
necessarily apply to or exist at all in private organizations such as
the NFL.

Moving back to cycling: I suppose you could classify Floyd Landis a
complete moron for keeping that testosterone patch on his nuts for too
long, eh? What a dumbass way to lose a yellow jersey. Duh!
  #68  
Old May 28th 07, 08:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Sandy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 504
Default If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...

Dans le message de ,
Doug Taylor a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
On 27 May 2007 19:12:10 -0700, Bill C wrote:

Do you REALLY think the NFL testing policy catches anyone but
complete morons, and actually works to clean up the sport?


Who knows? It is reputed to be the most successful of the three major
US Pro sports. But maybe it's total b.s. as you imply.

My central point, in reply to another post, was that the principle of
"due process" which exists in the US criminal justice system, does not
necessarily apply to or exist at all in private organizations such as
the NFL.


If the "process" used in the NFL is a commercial arbitral process, the
enforcement of an award from such a panel may be attacked in court on very
few grounds, but the principal two grounds are the inequity of the process
as it unfolded, and the inherently "unfairness" of the procedure. A loser
in arb may apply to the court for a declaration that the award is invalid in
the same way a winning side can ask the court to confirm the arbitral award.

It's your NFL, so I guess you know about the proceedings' conduct and
whether they always meet the standards for confirmation.


  #69  
Old May 28th 07, 10:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Doug Taylor
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 430
Default If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...

On Mon, 28 May 2007 21:50:18 +0200, "Sandy" wrote:


My central point, in reply to another post, was that the principle of
"due process" which exists in the US criminal justice system, does not
necessarily apply to or exist at all in private organizations such as
the NFL.


If the "process" used in the NFL is a commercial arbitral process, the
enforcement of an award from such a panel may be attacked in court on very
few grounds, but the principal two grounds are the inequity of the process
as it unfolded, and the inherently "unfairness" of the procedure. A loser
in arb may apply to the court for a declaration that the award is invalid in
the same way a winning side can ask the court to confirm the arbitral award.

It's your NFL, so I guess you know about the proceedings' conduct and
whether they always meet the standards for confirmation.


It's anybody's who wants to find it on the web:

http://www.nflpa.org/pdfs/rulesandre...Substances.pdf

Read Appendix D:

If the player tests positive, he is guilty ipso facto.
The player can appeal to the commissioner and THEN request a hearing.
As a practical matter, a positive test is unlikely to be reversed.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
To Johnny from Ginny Leif Recumbent Biking 0 February 7th 05 02:06 AM
R I P: And there goes Johnny! Slacker Mountain Biking 3 January 28th 05 04:18 AM
The Johnny NoCom Book??? ... Eamil SPAM from Johnny NoCom [email protected] Recumbent Biking 0 January 5th 05 03:56 AM
Johnny, Ken the Troll is...... Sam Spade Recumbent Biking 8 December 23rd 04 03:39 AM
Johnny Cash rubic Unicycling 2 September 13th 03 01:00 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 CycleBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.