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#61
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If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...
On May 27, 8:44 pm, Doug Taylor wrote:
On 27 May 2007 10:24:14 -0700, Bill C wrote: Fair and just due process is just that, and should be accorded to everyone in all cases, not just serious criminal cases. "Fair and just due process?" Who cares? It's PRIVATE and totally their call. And, the system arguably is more successful preventing performance enhancing drug use than any other US Pro sport, or any sport. Many would say that private, whether capitalized or not, more or less equates to fair and just. Assuming all of the other stuff is fair and just. While you're crowing about the silly yankee-pig-dog sport of American football, everyone is already way ahead of you in agreeing that the cyclists unions sucks. Besides that, the same stuff goes on (the article is a couple of years old, but it's not necessary for me to do your research for you): http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in683747.shtml BTW, Fijian canoe racing is remarkably free of drugs, except for the chain-chuggin of kava. Good for them, I say. Better for the players, the owners, AND the fans. Yay! R |
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#62
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If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...
On May 27, 8:44 pm, Doug Taylor wrote:
On 27 May 2007 10:24:14 -0700, Bill C wrote: Fair and just due process is just that, and should be accorded to everyone in all cases, not just serious criminal cases. Well, dude, good thing you are just another nerd posting on usenet and not a competing in the NFL, which has one of the more successful and acclaimed anti-performance enhancing drug policies. Again, unlike the criminal justice system, where the concept of due process is key in any free or enlightened society, the NFL is strictly private: they can do whatever they want, subject to acceptance by the player's union. All players in the League are tested once a year, and are subject to weekly random tests during the pre-season, season, and post season. If a player refuses a test or tests positive, bingo, GUILTY. No Johnny Cochran calling the procedure or the science into question. No circus. No assassination of the character of witnesses. The player is immediately subject to sanctions; although they have the right of appeal to the NFL commissioner. Lots of luck, there. "Fair and just due process?" Who cares? It's PRIVATE and totally their call. And, the system arguably is more successful preventing performance enhancing drug use than any other US Pro sport, or any sport. Good for them, I say. Better for the players, the owners, AND the fans. Do you REALLY think the NFL testing policy catches anyone but complete morons, and actually works to clean up the sport? Of course the massively powerful NFLPA signed onto it because it's nothing more than a PR gimmick. Check out section 1C in particular: http://www.nflpa.org/pdfs/RulesAndRe...olicy_2006.pdf Notice that the NFLPA can unilaterally remove a lab from doing testing and they then negotiate on another lab. Here's the steroids stuff: Notice it's urine only and full of holes. http://www.nflpa.org/pdfs/RulesAndRe...Substances.pdf Really strong union, good PR, protection from abuses, and very little chance of catching anyone who isn't a complete imbecile ifor either rec drugs or steroid related stuff. Cycling basically had this policy before all the scandals started. You think there's any chance in hell of implementing anything close to cycling's program in any major US sport? I'll give you a hint both the NFLPA and MLBPA have said hell will be frozen over before they allow blood testing. The Unions here provide the balance that is totally absent in cycling. Bill C Bill C |
#63
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If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...
In article .com,
Bill C wrote: On May 27, 8:44 pm, Doug Taylor wrote: On 27 May 2007 10:24:14 -0700, Bill C wrote: Fair and just due process is just that, and should be accorded to everyone in all cases, not just serious criminal cases. Well, dude, good thing you are just another nerd posting on usenet and not a competing in the NFL, which has one of the more successful and acclaimed anti-performance enhancing drug policies. Again, unlike the criminal justice system, where the concept of due process is key in any free or enlightened society, the NFL is strictly private: they can do whatever they want, subject to acceptance by the player's union. All players in the League are tested once a year, and are subject to weekly random tests during the pre-season, season, and post season. If a player refuses a test or tests positive, bingo, GUILTY. No Johnny Cochran calling the procedure or the science into question. No circus. No assassination of the character of witnesses. The player is immediately subject to sanctions; although they have the right of appeal to the NFL commissioner. Lots of luck, there. "Fair and just due process?" Who cares? It's PRIVATE and totally their call. And, the system arguably is more successful preventing performance enhancing drug use than any other US Pro sport, or any sport. Good for them, I say. Better for the players, the owners, AND the fans. Do you REALLY think the NFL testing policy catches anyone but complete morons, and actually works to clean up the sport? Of course the massively powerful NFLPA signed onto it because it's nothing more than a PR gimmick. Check out section 1C in particular: http://www.nflpa.org/pdfs/RulesAndRe...olicy_2006.pdf Notice that the NFLPA can unilaterally remove a lab from doing testing and they then negotiate on another lab. Here's the steroids stuff: Notice it's urine only and full of holes. http://www.nflpa.org/pdfs/RulesAndRe...Substances.pdf The science here is beyond me: what holes do you see in their 'roid-testing regimen? I would note that I suspect the aerobic enhancements of EPO would be of minimal benefit to any football player. Really strong union, good PR, protection from abuses, and very little chance of catching anyone who isn't a complete imbecile ifor either rec drugs or steroid related stuff. Cycling basically had this policy before all the scandals started. You think there's any chance in hell of implementing anything close to cycling's program in any major US sport? I'll give you a hint both the NFLPA and MLBPA have said hell will be frozen over before they allow blood testing. -- Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos |
#64
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If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...
In article . com,
RicodJour wrote: On May 27, 8:44 pm, Doug Taylor wrote: On 27 May 2007 10:24:14 -0700, Bill C wrote: Fair and just due process is just that, and should be accorded to everyone in all cases, not just serious criminal cases. "Fair and just due process?" Who cares? It's PRIVATE and totally their call. And, the system arguably is more successful preventing performance enhancing drug use than any other US Pro sport, or any sport. Many would say that private, whether capitalized or not, more or less equates to fair and just. Assuming all of the other stuff is fair and just. While you're crowing about the silly yankee-pig-dog sport of American football, everyone is already way ahead of you in agreeing that the cyclists unions sucks. Besides that, the same stuff goes on (the article is a couple of years old, but it's not necessary for me to do your research for you): http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in683747.shtml Would it give an advantage? "Yes," says Black, who speaks from personal experience. While directing a drug-testing lab at Vanderbilt University, he took some Stanozolol for research purposes. "I must have been around 40 when I was injected with Stanozolol," says Black. "And I pretty much felt like I was 18 again. LIVEDRUNK does not endorse drug use, even the really good ones. What? Good for them, I say. Better for the players, the owners, AND the fans. Yay! Rico: what's the average life expectancy of an NFL football player? Better for the players, -- Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/ "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos |
#65
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If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...
On May 28, 7:20 am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
Rico: what's the average life expectancy of an NFL football player? A possibly more relevant question is how it compares to other sports: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=17436206 |
#66
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If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...
On May 28, 1:18 am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In article .com, Bill C wrote: On May 27, 8:44 pm, Doug Taylor wrote: On 27 May 2007 10:24:14 -0700, Bill C wrote: Fair and just due process is just that, and should be accorded to everyone in all cases, not just serious criminal cases. Well, dude, good thing you are just another nerd posting on usenet and not a competing in the NFL, which has one of the more successful and acclaimed anti-performance enhancing drug policies. Again, unlike the criminal justice system, where the concept of due process is key in any free or enlightened society, the NFL is strictly private: they can do whatever they want, subject to acceptance by the player's union. All players in the League are tested once a year, and are subject to weekly random tests during the pre-season, season, and post season. If a player refuses a test or tests positive, bingo, GUILTY. No Johnny Cochran calling the procedure or the science into question. No circus. No assassination of the character of witnesses. The player is immediately subject to sanctions; although they have the right of appeal to the NFL commissioner. Lots of luck, there. "Fair and just due process?" Who cares? It's PRIVATE and totally their call. And, the system arguably is more successful preventing performance enhancing drug use than any other US Pro sport, or any sport. Good for them, I say. Better for the players, the owners, AND the fans. Do you REALLY think the NFL testing policy catches anyone but complete morons, and actually works to clean up the sport? Of course the massively powerful NFLPA signed onto it because it's nothing more than a PR gimmick. Check out section 1C in particular: http://www.nflpa.org/pdfs/RulesAndRe...olicy_2006.pdf Notice that the NFLPA can unilaterally remove a lab from doing testing and they then negotiate on another lab. Here's the steroids stuff: Notice it's urine only and full of holes. http://www.nflpa.org/pdfs/RulesAndRe...Substances.pdf The science here is beyond me: what holes do you see in their 'roid-testing regimen? I would note that I suspect the aerobic enhancements of EPO would be of minimal benefit to any football player. Ryan Cousineau / "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Hey Ryan A lot of the newer water based steroids are gone in days at most from your system and then a lot of the newer stuff won't show on urine tests, just blood. So these guys are all millionaires with access to serious newer drugs that you aren't going to find using a urine test at all too. About the only way to get caught is to be taking old oil based **** and only an idiot is doing that. The people like Alzado and others admitted using Hgh way back when and the NFL still doesn't test for it and is hostile to the concept. http://www.charlotte.com/456/story/69486.html http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?art...9A83414B7F0000 Quoted: Still, the cat-and-mouse game that is athletic drug testing continues. The trouble is that the mice are fast-moving targets that never stop evolving. "We're looking forward for our next research project, and that includes looking for other designer steroids," Catlin reports. Perhaps they can pounce before the mouse disappears. and that's the core problem. Both baseball and the NFL are using urine testing which is less effective and most any change to the policy has to be renegotiated with the unions who aren't going to give an inch until they are absolutely forced to. If and when a few people get caught, switch to something else and keep going. Neither sport is interested in getting into, or will allow the mess cycling is in to happen to it. They'll keep spinning a testing program just good enough to catch the blatant idiots and that'll keep the good PR going even though it really isn't doing much. The other side is that they are allowed, especially in football, to take so many drugs, painkillers etc...that what'd light up a Wada test is all perfectly good and covered for them. If they banned opiates and other painkillers you'd have to double the roster sizes just to have bodies that could play. I don't think anyone takes either sports testing program seriously as science, or enforcement in private. Bill C |
#67
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If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...
On 27 May 2007 19:12:10 -0700, Bill C wrote:
Do you REALLY think the NFL testing policy catches anyone but complete morons, and actually works to clean up the sport? Who knows? It is reputed to be the most successful of the three major US Pro sports. But maybe it's total b.s. as you imply. My central point, in reply to another post, was that the principle of "due process" which exists in the US criminal justice system, does not necessarily apply to or exist at all in private organizations such as the NFL. Moving back to cycling: I suppose you could classify Floyd Landis a complete moron for keeping that testosterone patch on his nuts for too long, eh? What a dumbass way to lose a yellow jersey. Duh! |
#68
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If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...
Dans le message de ,
Doug Taylor a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré : On 27 May 2007 19:12:10 -0700, Bill C wrote: Do you REALLY think the NFL testing policy catches anyone but complete morons, and actually works to clean up the sport? Who knows? It is reputed to be the most successful of the three major US Pro sports. But maybe it's total b.s. as you imply. My central point, in reply to another post, was that the principle of "due process" which exists in the US criminal justice system, does not necessarily apply to or exist at all in private organizations such as the NFL. If the "process" used in the NFL is a commercial arbitral process, the enforcement of an award from such a panel may be attacked in court on very few grounds, but the principal two grounds are the inequity of the process as it unfolded, and the inherently "unfairness" of the procedure. A loser in arb may apply to the court for a declaration that the award is invalid in the same way a winning side can ask the court to confirm the arbitral award. It's your NFL, so I guess you know about the proceedings' conduct and whether they always meet the standards for confirmation. |
#69
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If Johnny Cochran Was Still Here...
On Mon, 28 May 2007 21:50:18 +0200, "Sandy" wrote:
My central point, in reply to another post, was that the principle of "due process" which exists in the US criminal justice system, does not necessarily apply to or exist at all in private organizations such as the NFL. If the "process" used in the NFL is a commercial arbitral process, the enforcement of an award from such a panel may be attacked in court on very few grounds, but the principal two grounds are the inequity of the process as it unfolded, and the inherently "unfairness" of the procedure. A loser in arb may apply to the court for a declaration that the award is invalid in the same way a winning side can ask the court to confirm the arbitral award. It's your NFL, so I guess you know about the proceedings' conduct and whether they always meet the standards for confirmation. It's anybody's who wants to find it on the web: http://www.nflpa.org/pdfs/rulesandre...Substances.pdf Read Appendix D: If the player tests positive, he is guilty ipso facto. The player can appeal to the commissioner and THEN request a hearing. As a practical matter, a positive test is unlikely to be reversed. |
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