instability and speed wobble

This seems like a reasonable explanation:

"alfee Design has identified a cause of speed wobble (a.k.a. shimmy) and
instability that can be prevented. Speed wobble is a dangerous condition
that can cause the rider to lose control of the bicycle and crash. While
loose headsets and out of true wheels and frames can contribute to speed
wobble, we have found that fork asymmetry can also cause speed wobble.

Fork symmetry is defined as the symmetrical position of the fork dropouts in
relation to the steering axis. Specifically, the equality of the distances
from the dropout faces to the steering axis must be within a certain
tolerance for the bike to ride in a stable and confident manner.

Traditionally, steel forks were cold set after welding or brazing to realign
them after possible distortion caused by the heating and cooling of the
metal. A diligent steel frame builder can align the fork blades to within a
millimeter of symmetry.

Carbon fiber forks cannot be cold set. They must be molded straight to begin
with. We have found that a small percentage of carbon forks by various
companies were molded with asymmetrical fork blades. Some are off by a
little over a millimeter and others are off by two or more. Forks that are
off by over 1.8 millimeters in symmetry have a good possibility of being
prone to speed wobble. A symptom of a fork that is off by 1.8 mm or more is
a noticeable difficulty when riding no hands at a slow speed (less than 10
mph). One has to lean to the side slightly to keep going straight. A bike
with asymmetrical forks seems to corner better in one direction but not so
well in the other. At speeds of 30 mph or more, the bike can develop speed
wobble.

If your bike has the above-mentioned symptoms, the fork should be measured
for symmetry. This is difficult to measure without proper tools. Calfee
Design measures all forks for symmetry and is equipped to measure any fork.
If any Calfee customer wishes to have their fork checked, please send it to
us with a letter requesting a fork inspection. Non-Calfee customers may send
their forks for inspection for a nominal fee. Replacements may be available
for asymmetrical forks, depending on the individual fork maker's policy."

bfd snipes from cover of anonymity:

This seems like a reasonable explanation:

To one who doesn't understand the concept it might seem reasonable but
none of the items listed cause shimmy. We have had discussions in this
newsgroup at length and theories tested, none of which had any effect
on shimmy.

All of the following is irrelevant as the claim of Rolf Dietrich that
he wheels prevent shimmy. That claim thoroughly failed a reality test
by independent testers.

I think you should read the FAQ before hypothesizing on causes of
shimmy:

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8h.5.html (update no yet posted)

# Subject: 8h.5 Shimmy or Speed Wobble
# From: Jobst Brandt
# Date: Mon, 25 June 2004 14:13:14 PDT

# Shimmy, a spontaneous steering oscillation of the front wheel,
# usually occurs at a predictable speed when riding no-hands. The
# likelihood of shimmy is greatest when the only rider-to-bicycle
# contact is at the saddle and pedals. This position gives the least
# damping by hands, arms, and legs. When shimmy occurs on descents,
# with hands on the bars, it is highly disconcerting because the most
# common rider response, of gripping the bars firmly, only increases
# it.

# Shimmy is not related to frame alignment or loose bearings, as
# is often claimed. Shimmy results from dynamics of front wheel
# rotation, mass of the handlebars, elasticity of the frame, and where
# the rider contacts the bicycle. Both perfectly aligned bicycles and
# ones with wheels out of plane to one another shimmy nearly equally
# well. It is as likely with properly adjusted bearings as loose
# ones. The idea that shimmy is related to bearing adjustment or
# alignment has been established by repetition.

# Bicycle shimmy is the lateral oscillation of the head tube about the
# road contact point of the front wheel and depends largely on frame
# geometry and the elasticity of the top and down tubes. It is driven
# by gyroscopic forces of the front wheel, making it largely speed
# dependent. It cannot be fixed by adjustments because it is inherent
# to the geometry and elasticity of the bicycle frame. The longer the
# frame and the higher the saddle, the greater the tendency to shimmy,
# other things being equal. Weight distribution also has no effect on
# shimmy although where that weight contacts the frame does. Bicycle
# shimmy is unchanged when riding no-hands, whether leaning forward or
# backward.

# Among parameters that supposedly cause shimmy, spoke pattern and
# balance had no effect. Tests with wheels balanced and purposely
# unbalanced and ones with paired spokes as well as low spoke count
# caused no change in shimmy. Filling the front tire with water,
# doubling its mass, had no effect other than to change its frequency
# of oscillation slightly.

# Shimmy requires a spring and a mass about which to oscillate and
# these are furnished by the frame and seated rider. Unloading the
# saddle (without standing up) will stop shimmy. Pedaling or rough
# road will also reduce the tendency to shimmy. In contrast, coasting
# no-hands downhill on a smooth road at more than 20mph with the
# cranks vertical seems to be the most shimmy prone condition.

# When coasting no-hands, laying one leg against the top tube is the
# most common way to inhibit shimmy and also one of the most common
# ways to coast no-hands. Compliant tread of knobby tires usually
# have sufficient squirming damping to suppress shimmy. Weight of the
# handlebar and its extension from of the steering axis also affects
# shimmy.

# Shimmy is caused by the gyroscopic force of the front wheel whose
# tilt is roughly at right angles to the steering axis, making the
# wheel steer to the left when it leans to the left. This steering
# action twists the toptube and downtube, storing energy that both
# limits travel and causes a return swing. Trail (caster) of the fork
# acts on the wheel to limit these excursions and return them toward
# center.

# The shimmy that concerns riders the most occurs with hands firmly on
# the bars. This is rider generated by muscular effect whose natural
# response is the same as the shimmy frequency, about that of Human
# shivering. Descending in cold weather can be difficult for this
# reason. The rider's "death grip" only enhances the incidence of
# shimmy. Loosely holding the bars between thumb and forefinger is a
# way of avoiding shimmy when cold.

# ------------------------------

Calfee Design has identified a cause of speed wobble (a.k.a. shimmy)
and instability that can be prevented. Speed wobble is a dangerous
condition that can cause the rider to lose control of the bicycle
and crash. While loose headsets and out of true wheels and frames
can contribute to speed wobble, we have found that fork asymmetry
can also cause speed wobble.

Fork symmetry is defined as the symmetrical position of the fork
dropouts in relation to the steering axis. Specifically, the
equality of the distances from the dropout faces to the steering
axis must be within a certain tolerance for the bike to ride in a
stable and confident manner.

Traditionally, steel forks were cold set after welding or brazing to
realign them after possible distortion caused by the heating and
cooling of the metal. A diligent steel frame builder can align the
fork blades to within a millimeter of symmetry.

Carbon fiber forks cannot be cold set. They must be molded straight
to begin with. We have found that a small percentage of carbon
forks by various companies were molded with asymmetrical fork
blades. Some are off by a little over a millimeter and others are
off by two or more. Forks that are off by over 1.8 millimeters in
symmetry have a good possibility of being prone to speed wobble. A
symptom of a fork that is off by 1.8 mm or more is a noticeable
difficulty when riding no hands at a slow speed (less than 10 mph).
One has to lean to the side slightly to keep going straight. A bike
with asymmetrical forks seems to corner better in one direction but
not so well in the other. At speeds of 30 mph or more, the bike can
develop speed wobble.

If your bike has the above-mentioned symptoms, the fork should be
measured for symmetry. This is difficult to measure without proper
tools. Calfee Design measures all forks for symmetry and is equipped
to measure any fork. If any Calfee customer wishes to have their
fork checked, please send it to us with a letter requesting a fork
inspection. Non-Calfee customers may send their forks for inspection
for a nominal fee. Replacements may be available for asymmetrical
forks, depending on the individual fork maker's policy."




Jobst Brandt

I have asymmetrical forks on a bike I use. It does not suffer from shimmy.
I have a bike which is perfectly aligned in all ways and shimmy arises when
the front end of the bike is unloaded when using over inflated thin casing
high pressure tyres. On a normal geometry bicycle shimmy can be prevented
by increasing the length of the tyre contact patch by lowering pressure or
putting more weight over the front of the bike. No bike will shimmy when
braking hard enough to raise the rear wheel.

Trevor

I have asymmetrical forks on a bike I use. It does not suffer from shimmy.
I have a bike which is perfectly aligned in all ways and shimmy arises when
the front end of the bike is unloaded when using over inflated thin casing
high pressure tyres. On a normal geometry bicycle shimmy can be prevented
by increasing the length of the tyre contact patch by lowering pressure or
putting more weight over the front of the bike. No bike will shimmy when
braking hard enough to raise the rear wheel.

Trevor

wrote:

bfd snipes from cover of anonymity:


This seems like a reasonable explanation:


To one who doesn't understand the concept it might seem reasonable but
none of the items listed cause shimmy. We have had discussions in this
newsgroup at length and theories tested, none of which had any effect
on shimmy.

All of the following is irrelevant as the claim of Rolf Dietrich that
he wheels prevent shimmy. That claim thoroughly failed a reality test
by independent testers.

I think you should read the FAQ before hypothesizing on causes of
shimmy:

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8h.5.html (update no yet posted)

# Subject: 8h.5 Shimmy or Speed Wobble
# From: Jobst Brandt
# Date: Mon, 25 June 2004 14:13:14 PDT

# Shimmy, a spontaneous steering oscillation of the front wheel,
# usually occurs at a predictable speed when riding no-hands. The
# likelihood of shimmy is greatest when the only rider-to-bicycle
# contact is at the saddle and pedals. This position gives the least
# damping by hands, arms, and legs. When shimmy occurs on descents,
# with hands on the bars, it is highly disconcerting because the most
# common rider response, of gripping the bars firmly, only increases
# it.

# Shimmy is not related to frame alignment or loose bearings, as
# is often claimed. Shimmy results from dynamics of front wheel
# rotation, mass of the handlebars, elasticity of the frame, and where
# the rider contacts the bicycle. Both perfectly aligned bicycles and
# ones with wheels out of plane to one another shimmy nearly equally
# well. It is as likely with properly adjusted bearings as loose
# ones. The idea that shimmy is related to bearing adjustment or
# alignment has been established by repetition.

# Bicycle shimmy is the lateral oscillation of the head tube about the
# road contact point of the front wheel and depends largely on frame
# geometry and the elasticity of the top and down tubes. It is driven
# by gyroscopic forces of the front wheel, making it largely speed
# dependent. It cannot be fixed by adjustments because it is inherent
# to the geometry and elasticity of the bicycle frame. The longer the
# frame and the higher the saddle, the greater the tendency to shimmy,
# other things being equal. Weight distribution also has no effect on
# shimmy although where that weight contacts the frame does. Bicycle
# shimmy is unchanged when riding no-hands, whether leaning forward or
# backward.

# Among parameters that supposedly cause shimmy, spoke pattern and
# balance had no effect. Tests with wheels balanced and purposely
# unbalanced and ones with paired spokes as well as low spoke count
# caused no change in shimmy. Filling the front tire with water,
# doubling its mass, had no effect other than to change its frequency
# of oscillation slightly.

# Shimmy requires a spring and a mass about which to oscillate and
# these are furnished by the frame and seated rider. Unloading the
# saddle (without standing up) will stop shimmy. Pedaling or rough
# road will also reduce the tendency to shimmy. In contrast, coasting
# no-hands downhill on a smooth road at more than 20mph with the
# cranks vertical seems to be the most shimmy prone condition.

# When coasting no-hands, laying one leg against the top tube is the
# most common way to inhibit shimmy and also one of the most common
# ways to coast no-hands. Compliant tread of knobby tires usually
# have sufficient squirming damping to suppress shimmy. Weight of the
# handlebar and its extension from of the steering axis also affects
# shimmy.

# Shimmy is caused by the gyroscopic force of the front wheel whose
# tilt is roughly at right angles to the steering axis, making the
# wheel steer to the left when it leans to the left. This steering
# action twists the toptube and downtube, storing energy that both
# limits travel and causes a return swing. Trail (caster) of the fork
# acts on the wheel to limit these excursions and return them toward
# center.

# The shimmy that concerns riders the most occurs with hands firmly on
# the bars. This is rider generated by muscular effect whose natural
# response is the same as the shimmy frequency, about that of Human
# shivering. Descending in cold weather can be difficult for this
# reason. The rider's "death grip" only enhances the incidence of
# shimmy. Loosely holding the bars between thumb and forefinger is a
# way of avoiding shimmy when cold.

# ------------------------------


Calfee Design has identified a cause of speed wobble (a.k.a. shimmy)
and instability that can be prevented. Speed wobble is a dangerous
condition that can cause the rider to lose control of the bicycle
and crash. While loose headsets and out of true wheels and frames
can contribute to speed wobble, we have found that fork asymmetry
can also cause speed wobble.


Fork symmetry is defined as the symmetrical position of the fork
dropouts in relation to the steering axis. Specifically, the
equality of the distances from the dropout faces to the steering
axis must be within a certain tolerance for the bike to ride in a
stable and confident manner.


Traditionally, steel forks were cold set after welding or brazing to
realign them after possible distortion caused by the heating and
cooling of the metal. A diligent steel frame builder can align the
fork blades to within a millimeter of symmetry.


Carbon fiber forks cannot be cold set. They must be molded straight
to begin with. We have found that a small percentage of carbon
forks by various companies were molded with asymmetrical fork
blades. Some are off by a little over a millimeter and others are
off by two or more. Forks that are off by over 1.8 millimeters in
symmetry have a good possibility of being prone to speed wobble. A
symptom of a fork that is off by 1.8 mm or more is a noticeable
difficulty when riding no hands at a slow speed (less than 10 mph).
One has to lean to the side slightly to keep going straight. A bike
with asymmetrical forks seems to corner better in one direction but
not so well in the other. At speeds of 30 mph or more, the bike can
develop speed wobble.


If your bike has the above-mentioned symptoms, the fork should be
measured for symmetry. This is difficult to measure without proper
tools. Calfee Design measures all forks for symmetry and is equipped
to measure any fork. If any Calfee customer wishes to have their
fork checked, please send it to us with a letter requesting a fork
inspection. Non-Calfee customers may send their forks for inspection
for a nominal fee. Replacements may be available for asymmetrical
forks, depending on the individual fork maker's policy."


I have to agree with Jobst. I had a fork with one blade at least 4mm
out (until I eventually checked it and realigned it) and the bike it
belonged to was stable at over 50mph. It also had a very loose headset
until the LBS refaced the head tube and sorted this out. Also no
tendency to shimmy.

wrote:

bfd snipes from cover of anonymity:


This seems like a reasonable explanation:


To one who doesn't understand the concept it might seem reasonable but
none of the items listed cause shimmy. We have had discussions in this
newsgroup at length and theories tested, none of which had any effect
on shimmy.

All of the following is irrelevant as the claim of Rolf Dietrich that
he wheels prevent shimmy. That claim thoroughly failed a reality test
by independent testers.

I think you should read the FAQ before hypothesizing on causes of
shimmy:

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8h.5.html (update no yet posted)

# Subject: 8h.5 Shimmy or Speed Wobble
# From: Jobst Brandt
# Date: Mon, 25 June 2004 14:13:14 PDT

# Shimmy, a spontaneous steering oscillation of the front wheel,
# usually occurs at a predictable speed when riding no-hands. The
# likelihood of shimmy is greatest when the only rider-to-bicycle
# contact is at the saddle and pedals. This position gives the least
# damping by hands, arms, and legs. When shimmy occurs on descents,
# with hands on the bars, it is highly disconcerting because the most
# common rider response, of gripping the bars firmly, only increases
# it.

# Shimmy is not related to frame alignment or loose bearings, as
# is often claimed. Shimmy results from dynamics of front wheel
# rotation, mass of the handlebars, elasticity of the frame, and where
# the rider contacts the bicycle. Both perfectly aligned bicycles and
# ones with wheels out of plane to one another shimmy nearly equally
# well. It is as likely with properly adjusted bearings as loose
# ones. The idea that shimmy is related to bearing adjustment or
# alignment has been established by repetition.

# Bicycle shimmy is the lateral oscillation of the head tube about the
# road contact point of the front wheel and depends largely on frame
# geometry and the elasticity of the top and down tubes. It is driven
# by gyroscopic forces of the front wheel, making it largely speed
# dependent. It cannot be fixed by adjustments because it is inherent
# to the geometry and elasticity of the bicycle frame. The longer the
# frame and the higher the saddle, the greater the tendency to shimmy,
# other things being equal. Weight distribution also has no effect on
# shimmy although where that weight contacts the frame does. Bicycle
# shimmy is unchanged when riding no-hands, whether leaning forward or
# backward.

# Among parameters that supposedly cause shimmy, spoke pattern and
# balance had no effect. Tests with wheels balanced and purposely
# unbalanced and ones with paired spokes as well as low spoke count
# caused no change in shimmy. Filling the front tire with water,
# doubling its mass, had no effect other than to change its frequency
# of oscillation slightly.

# Shimmy requires a spring and a mass about which to oscillate and
# these are furnished by the frame and seated rider. Unloading the
# saddle (without standing up) will stop shimmy. Pedaling or rough
# road will also reduce the tendency to shimmy. In contrast, coasting
# no-hands downhill on a smooth road at more than 20mph with the
# cranks vertical seems to be the most shimmy prone condition.

# When coasting no-hands, laying one leg against the top tube is the
# most common way to inhibit shimmy and also one of the most common
# ways to coast no-hands. Compliant tread of knobby tires usually
# have sufficient squirming damping to suppress shimmy. Weight of the
# handlebar and its extension from of the steering axis also affects
# shimmy.

# Shimmy is caused by the gyroscopic force of the front wheel whose
# tilt is roughly at right angles to the steering axis, making the
# wheel steer to the left when it leans to the left. This steering
# action twists the toptube and downtube, storing energy that both
# limits travel and causes a return swing. Trail (caster) of the fork
# acts on the wheel to limit these excursions and return them toward
# center.

# The shimmy that concerns riders the most occurs with hands firmly on
# the bars. This is rider generated by muscular effect whose natural
# response is the same as the shimmy frequency, about that of Human
# shivering. Descending in cold weather can be difficult for this
# reason. The rider's "death grip" only enhances the incidence of
# shimmy. Loosely holding the bars between thumb and forefinger is a
# way of avoiding shimmy when cold.

# ------------------------------


Calfee Design has identified a cause of speed wobble (a.k.a. shimmy)
and instability that can be prevented. Speed wobble is a dangerous
condition that can cause the rider to lose control of the bicycle
and crash. While loose headsets and out of true wheels and frames
can contribute to speed wobble, we have found that fork asymmetry
can also cause speed wobble.


Fork symmetry is defined as the symmetrical position of the fork
dropouts in relation to the steering axis. Specifically, the
equality of the distances from the dropout faces to the steering
axis must be within a certain tolerance for the bike to ride in a
stable and confident manner.


Traditionally, steel forks were cold set after welding or brazing to
realign them after possible distortion caused by the heating and
cooling of the metal. A diligent steel frame builder can align the
fork blades to within a millimeter of symmetry.


Carbon fiber forks cannot be cold set. They must be molded straight
to begin with. We have found that a small percentage of carbon
forks by various companies were molded with asymmetrical fork
blades. Some are off by a little over a millimeter and others are
off by two or more. Forks that are off by over 1.8 millimeters in
symmetry have a good possibility of being prone to speed wobble. A
symptom of a fork that is off by 1.8 mm or more is a noticeable
difficulty when riding no hands at a slow speed (less than 10 mph).
One has to lean to the side slightly to keep going straight. A bike
with asymmetrical forks seems to corner better in one direction but
not so well in the other. At speeds of 30 mph or more, the bike can
develop speed wobble.


If your bike has the above-mentioned symptoms, the fork should be
measured for symmetry. This is difficult to measure without proper
tools. Calfee Design measures all forks for symmetry and is equipped
to measure any fork. If any Calfee customer wishes to have their
fork checked, please send it to us with a letter requesting a fork
inspection. Non-Calfee customers may send their forks for inspection
for a nominal fee. Replacements may be available for asymmetrical
forks, depending on the individual fork maker's policy."


I have to agree with Jobst. I had a fork with one blade at least 4mm
out (until I eventually checked it and realigned it) and the bike it
belonged to was stable at over 50mph. It also had a very loose headset
until the LBS refaced the head tube and sorted this out. Also no
tendency to shimmy.

I have asymmetrical forks on a bike I use. It does not suffer from
shimmy.
I have a bike which is perfectly aligned in all ways and shimmy arises
when
the front end of the bike is unloaded when using over inflated thin casing
high pressure tyres. On a normal geometry bicycle shimmy can be prevented
by increasing the length of the tyre contact patch by lowering pressure or
putting more weight over the front of the bike. No bike will shimmy when
braking hard enough to raise the rear wheel.

Trevor


I've noticed that light braking increases shimmy. Don't ask me why,
shimmys are very mysterious. I solved my shimmy by getting a different
bike.

Callistus Valerius wrote in message ...
I've noticed that light braking increases shimmy. Don't ask me why,
shimmys are very mysterious. I solved my shimmy by getting a different
bike.

Wheel tracking.

Trevor