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#11
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may or may not be 'tech'
On Sat, 19 May 2018 07:40:08 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/19/2018 2:34 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Fri, 18 May 2018 20:02:04 -0500, AMuzi wrote: Go though the linked brochure images. It's amateurish IMHO. I didn't see a link to a brochure. Maybe this is what you're thinking of: https://books.google.com/books?id=4bSABo8Akh4C&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105#v=onepage &q&f=false It sure doesn't look like it were made from any form of known plastic. Oh, now I see why: "Although this prototype had many steel parts, final model is scheduled to have plastic frame, forks, handlebars, gears, chain, hubs, and derailleur. Rim and cranks will be alloy." I wanna see the plastic gears in action. In other words, what you see in the "prototype" photo is nothing even close to what is described, planned, or expected. Try this catalog link: http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=27603 notably: http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=27633 http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=27633&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 In 1973, we didn't have Photoshop, so the pictures look like they might have been colorized in a darkroom onto film or paper using color filters. The sharp edges on the various parts suggest that the parts were not painted, which would have more rounded edges. The crankset shows threaded hardware, without metal inserts, which is unlikely to be the way a plastic crankset would be built. There's also no indication of any tooth wear, which is what I would expect with a plastic gear and a steel chain. The parts shown look exactly like the metal equivalents, which is too much of a coincidence to be believable. Plastic is much weaker than metal and therefore requires thicker parts, reinforcing ribs, and metal inserts. The resulting plastic bicycle would look very different, especially if the frame was molded or vacuum formed. For example: https://bikerumor.com/2015/12/28/the-placha-plastic-concept-bike/ https://inhabitat.com/colorful-frii-concept-bike-is-built-from-injection-molded-recycled-plastic/ http://www.yankodesign.com/2014/12/03/print-on-demand-bicycle/ http://www.yankodesign.com/2009/03/27/foldable-bicycles-how-real-today/ http://www.yankodesign.com/2008/10/20/a-new-way-to-bike/ http://www.yankodesign.com/2008/03/21/one-seriously-tight-light-bike/ http://www.yankodesign.com/2010/09/24/15-amazing-bicycles-for-the-future-of-seoul/ etc. Soon, everyone will be riding on mass produced plastic bicycles. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
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#12
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may or may not be 'tech'
On 5/19/2018 11:02 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 19 May 2018 07:40:08 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 5/19/2018 2:34 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Fri, 18 May 2018 20:02:04 -0500, AMuzi wrote: Go though the linked brochure images. It's amateurish IMHO. I didn't see a link to a brochure. Maybe this is what you're thinking of: https://books.google.com/books?id=4bSABo8Akh4C&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105#v=onepage &q&f=false It sure doesn't look like it were made from any form of known plastic. Oh, now I see why: "Although this prototype had many steel parts, final model is scheduled to have plastic frame, forks, handlebars, gears, chain, hubs, and derailleur. Rim and cranks will be alloy." I wanna see the plastic gears in action. In other words, what you see in the "prototype" photo is nothing even close to what is described, planned, or expected. Try this catalog link: http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=27603 notably: http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=27633 http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=27633&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 In 1973, we didn't have Photoshop, so the pictures look like they might have been colorized in a darkroom onto film or paper using color filters. The sharp edges on the various parts suggest that the parts were not painted, which would have more rounded edges. The crankset shows threaded hardware, without metal inserts, which is unlikely to be the way a plastic crankset would be built. There's also no indication of any tooth wear, which is what I would expect with a plastic gear and a steel chain. The parts shown look exactly like the metal equivalents, which is too much of a coincidence to be believable. Plastic is much weaker than metal and therefore requires thicker parts, reinforcing ribs, and metal inserts. The resulting plastic bicycle would look very different, especially if the frame was molded or vacuum formed. For example: https://bikerumor.com/2015/12/28/the-placha-plastic-concept-bike/ https://inhabitat.com/colorful-frii-concept-bike-is-built-from-injection-molded-recycled-plastic/ http://www.yankodesign.com/2014/12/03/print-on-demand-bicycle/ http://www.yankodesign.com/2009/03/27/foldable-bicycles-how-real-today/ http://www.yankodesign.com/2008/10/20/a-new-way-to-bike/ http://www.yankodesign.com/2008/03/21/one-seriously-tight-light-bike/ http://www.yankodesign.com/2010/09/24/15-amazing-bicycles-for-the-future-of-seoul/ etc. Soon, everyone will be riding on mass produced plastic bicycles. And in your link the Weinmann DiaCompe #144 lever (inset #1) is distinctive and recognizable, unmodified except for color. Chain (insert #2) is not polymer. The Cyclo chainring set below that is a standard part shown colored (paint? image manipulation?) as is the Atom-Regina freewheel. I always assumed the top left whatchacallits were non-bike subterfuges or distractions, one of which sits posed on a bicycle sprocket as misdirection. I could be wrong. I agree that polymer materials, forming techniques (injection or positive layering) and impregnation/inclusion (Fiberglas, Spectra/Aramid, carbon strands, metal inserts and so on) are dramatically different from 1973: https://aviationbenefits.org/case-st...87-dreamliner/ and even: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoPVe7MiY1w -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#13
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may or may not be 'tech'
On Sat, 19 May 2018 11:23:05 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/19/2018 11:02 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=27633&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 And in your link the Weinmann DiaCompe #144 lever (inset #1) is distinctive and recognizable, unmodified except for color. Chain (insert #2) is not polymer. The Cyclo chainring set below that is a standard part shown colored (paint? image manipulation?) as is the Atom-Regina freewheel. I'm fairly sure that it's not paint because that added thickness of one or more layers of paint would tend to round the sharp edges, which is now what I'm seeing in the photo. I always assumed the top left whatchacallits were non-bike subterfuges or distractions, one of which sits posed on a bicycle sprocket as misdirection. I could be wrong. Offhand, I would guess(tm) that it's a one way ratchet clutch that fits inside the red hub. It would make a suitable single speed rear drive assembly for a bicycle (or a small tank). I agree that polymer materials, forming techniques (injection or positive layering) and impregnation/inclusion (Fiberglas, Spectra/Aramid, carbon strands, metal inserts and so on) are dramatically different from 1973: https://aviationbenefits.org/case-st...87-dreamliner/ Sure. When you change the materials used, the sizes, shapes, and fasteners change with it. Unless the materials have identical mechanical properties, a building made from wood is quite different from a similar building made from concrete, mud, hay bales, sod, or inflatable vinyl. This is especially true of highly optimized designs, such as bicycles, where proper operation depends on the adjacent hardware acting in a predictable manner. If the adjacent hardware changes in some way, then literally every nearby part will also need to change. Drastic changes, like going from steel to plastic is going to require some rather radical design changes. and even: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoPVe7MiY1w Been there before, about 65 years ago: https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=wwii+liberator+pistol Besides identical names, there are other similarities, such as self destruction after a few shots, shoddy construction, poor reliability, etc. Progress blunders onward. Whenever I see photos of the ride share fiasco in China, where thousands (or millions?) of bicycles are literally abandoned on the streets, I have to ask myself, how did they make those bicycles so quickly and cheaply? https://www.google.com/search?q=china+abandoned+bikes&tbm=isch Probably lots of plastic parts. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#14
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may or may not be 'tech'
On 5/19/2018 2:08 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 19 May 2018 11:23:05 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 5/19/2018 11:02 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=27633&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 -snip snip- Whenever I see photos of the ride share fiasco in China, where thousands (or millions?) of bicycles are literally abandoned on the streets, I have to ask myself, how did they make those bicycles so quickly and cheaply? https://www.google.com/search?q=china+abandoned+bikes&tbm=isch Probably lots of plastic parts. Good query and I don't know. I suspect that for a bicycle manufacturer on a contract for 10, 20, 50, 100,000 bicycles, assembling from mostly standard parts (which are dirt cheap) is the logical path. At some larger run injection molds might pay off but I don't know that would always be true. For a specific injection molded part I paid $3000 for a tool in The Middle Kingdom but to replace it in Wisconsin USA cost $11,000. So there's that. For a run of bicycles with as you wrote, 'lots of plastic parts' you're talking 'lots of tools' besides the amortization for each tool. OTOH if you meant Tourney level mostly nylon gear changers and shifters as opposed to Deore type mostly aluminum parts, then I absolutely agree. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#15
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may or may not be 'tech'
On Sat, 19 May 2018 14:22:52 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/19/2018 2:08 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sat, 19 May 2018 11:23:05 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 5/19/2018 11:02 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=27633&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 -snip snip- Whenever I see photos of the ride share fiasco in China, where thousands (or millions?) of bicycles are literally abandoned on the streets, I have to ask myself, how did they make those bicycles so quickly and cheaply? https://www.google.com/search?q=china+abandoned+bikes&tbm=isch Probably lots of plastic parts. Good query and I don't know. I suspect that for a bicycle manufacturer on a contract for 10, 20, 50, 100,000 bicycles, assembling from mostly standard parts (which are dirt cheap) is the logical path. At some larger run injection molds might pay off but I don't know that would always be true. For a specific injection molded part I paid $3000 for a tool in The Middle Kingdom but to replace it in Wisconsin USA cost $11,000. So there's that. For a run of bicycles with as you wrote, 'lots of plastic parts' you're talking 'lots of tools' besides the amortization for each tool. Would $600 million dollars suffice to pay for the necessary molds and tooling? https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/15/mobike-raises-600-million/ That's in addition to $300 million Mobike raised from investors. Notice the wheels on the Mobike bicycles in the photos. https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/mobikes-airless-tyres.jpg Plastic rims on the bicycles some of the bicycles, while conventional spokes and aluminum(?) rims on others. My guess(tm) is they're replacing older higher cost technology with better and cheaper. In large quantities, that means stamped or molded parts replacing extruded and assembled parts. Many of the frames look very different and are not a conventional geometry. They seem to be designed to be rugged, easy to fabricate, and built to be stored outdoors, all possibly at the expense of weight. https://media.wired.com/photos/5a84ad90a2d3835392e1b58a/master/w_582,c_limit/Limebike-TopArt.jpg More like a "comfort bike" than a cheapened conventional bicycle. With a "one size fits all" design and sizing, variations in frame construction by size can be ignored resulting in even larger production quantities using hydroforming and robotic welding. I haven't seen one of these bikeshare bikes up close, so I'm doing quite a bit of guessing. I may get my chance shortly as the People's Republic of Santa Cruz now has a bikeshare program: http://www.cityofsantacruz.com/government/city-departments/public-works/traffic-engineering/bike-share OTOH if you meant Tourney level mostly nylon gear changers and shifters as opposed to Deore type mostly aluminum parts, then I absolutely agree. Where nylon parts can't be used, I suspect that stamped steel seat posts, cranksets, crank arms, and pedals may make a comeback simply because they are cheaper. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#16
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may or may not be 'tech'
On Sun, 20 May 2018 18:40:27 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Sat, 19 May 2018 14:22:52 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 5/19/2018 2:08 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sat, 19 May 2018 11:23:05 -0500, AMuzi wrote: On 5/19/2018 11:02 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: http://www.velo-pages.com/main.php?g2_itemId=27633&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 -snip snip- Whenever I see photos of the ride share fiasco in China, where thousands (or millions?) of bicycles are literally abandoned on the streets, I have to ask myself, how did they make those bicycles so quickly and cheaply? https://www.google.com/search?q=china+abandoned+bikes&tbm=isch Probably lots of plastic parts. Good query and I don't know. I suspect that for a bicycle manufacturer on a contract for 10, 20, 50, 100,000 bicycles, assembling from mostly standard parts (which are dirt cheap) is the logical path. At some larger run injection molds might pay off but I don't know that would always be true. For a specific injection molded part I paid $3000 for a tool in The Middle Kingdom but to replace it in Wisconsin USA cost $11,000. So there's that. For a run of bicycles with as you wrote, 'lots of plastic parts' you're talking 'lots of tools' besides the amortization for each tool. Would $600 million dollars suffice to pay for the necessary molds and tooling? https://techcrunch.com/2017/06/15/mobike-raises-600-million/ That's in addition to $300 million Mobike raised from investors. Notice the wheels on the Mobike bicycles in the photos. https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/mobikes-airless-tyres.jpg Plastic rims on the bicycles some of the bicycles, while conventional spokes and aluminum(?) rims on others. My guess(tm) is they're replacing older higher cost technology with better and cheaper. In large quantities, that means stamped or molded parts replacing extruded and assembled parts. Many of the frames look very different and are not a conventional geometry. They seem to be designed to be rugged, easy to fabricate, and built to be stored outdoors, all possibly at the expense of weight. https://media.wired.com/photos/5a84ad90a2d3835392e1b58a/master/w_582,c_limit/Limebike-TopArt.jpg More like a "comfort bike" than a cheapened conventional bicycle. With a "one size fits all" design and sizing, variations in frame construction by size can be ignored resulting in even larger production quantities using hydroforming and robotic welding. I haven't seen one of these bikeshare bikes up close, so I'm doing quite a bit of guessing. I may get my chance shortly as the People's Republic of Santa Cruz now has a bikeshare program: http://www.cityofsantacruz.com/government/city-departments/public-works/traffic-engineering/bike-share OTOH if you meant Tourney level mostly nylon gear changers and shifters as opposed to Deore type mostly aluminum parts, then I absolutely agree. Where nylon parts can't be used, I suspect that stamped steel seat posts, cranksets, crank arms, and pedals may make a comeback simply because they are cheaper. A couple of years ago I was at a Bike show where quite a number of Mainland Chinese manufacturers were present. I asked one of the vendors what he'd have to charge for a complete Head Bearing Set. After some discussion about size of order, etc., the guy reckoned that for a smallish order the cost would be 1 dollar each. Or look at Alibaba volume prices and then think what they would be when you said, "Oh say, 50,000 units"? -- Cheers, John B. |
#17
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may or may not be 'tech'
On Sun, 20 May 2018 18:40:27 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: Many of the frames look very different and are not a conventional geometry. They seem to be designed to be rugged, easy to fabricate, and built to be stored outdoors, all possibly at the expense of weight. Definitely at the expense of weight. Only 42.5 lbs (19.3kg): https://bikesiliconvalley.org/wp-content/uploads/styles/large/public/images/BABS-bike-diagram.png Kinda looks like the down tube and rear fender were designed to act as advertising billboards. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#18
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may or may not be 'tech'
On Fri, 18 May 2018 20:02:04 -0500, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/18/2018 5:13 PM, ERSHC wrote: On Fri, 18 May 2018 13:44:19 -0500, AMuzi wrote: Which is unrelated, those being actual products. The Original Plastic Bike, Inc was only a brochure with slick photo production but there was no actual product. OPB may never have sold a bike, but they had at least one store front, so were (slightly) more than "only a brochure". This was probably summer of 1972. I was working in a bike shop in Rocky Point, NY (on Long Island). OPB opened a store in a strip mall a few miles away (on 25A, maybe in Miller Place?) that was closed by the end of the summer. Did you ever go in? I ask because the brochure showed relatively pedestrian bike parts (some recognizable by brand/model) with glossy polyurethane paint in bold colors. Nothing about the presentation would have fooled an experienced mechanic, engineer or injection mold specialist. There was no serious attempt to disguise metal objects which, by their shape, could not possibly be executed successfully in polymers. I never got in, and I don't recall seeing a bike. The one time I stopped by, the place was already closed. I think my boss at the time stopped in (or somehow saw the bikes) because I do recall a customer asking about them and him replying that they didn't (yet?) have chains and all the parts were "non-standard". Apparently the brochure was 'good enough' to swindle some number of investors. Go though the linked brochure images. It's amateurish IMHO. |
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