Tamper-resistant screws

On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote:

On Nov 1, 6:40Â*am, jim beam wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:23:10 -0700, Chalo wrote:
jim beam wrote:

Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:

Doesn't look they have any socket head cap screws. Pan or button
heads might work, but I'd check to make sure that the head
diameter isn't too great to fit into the counterbore where the old
cap heads formerly lived.

if you want tamper resistance to have a chance of being effective,
you need button heads.

What difference would that make, if the head is sunk in a
counterbore?

Chalo

have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored?

I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this
requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the wheel?

don't ask me dude - read the op's post!



Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored.

not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're not.




Â*or seat post
clamp?

Uh, yeah, the one on my bike right now. Bog standard OEM Kona seat post
clamp. Google image search "seat clamp" for lots and lots of other
examples.

sure there are examples, but having bothered to look at the clamps on the
bikes in my own garage, they're not all like that. selective data
presentation does not an argument make.



Â*or... Â*bottom line, it doesn't if the head /is/ fully sunk, but
few are.

I think Chalo was needling you,

ya think???



more subtly than others might, about
your tendency to go off half cocked without actually paying attention to
the question.

um, if you say so. but at least i could be bothered to read and context
from the o.p. - which is a good deal more than some people around here can
be bothered to do.


You are correct that in non-counterbored applications a
button head is more secure, but this was a useless response to someone
specifically asking about a counterbored screwhole, in which a button
head will not fit.

except for the ones where they do. check your facts.

jim beam wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote:

On Nov 1, 6:40 am, jim beam wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:23:10 -0700, Chalo wrote:
jim beam wrote:
Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:
Doesn't look they have any socket head cap screws. Pan or button
heads might work, but I'd check to make sure that the head
diameter isn't too great to fit into the counterbore where the old
cap heads formerly lived.
if you want tamper resistance to have a chance of being effective,
you need button heads.
What difference would that make, if the head is sunk in a
counterbore?
Chalo
have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored?
I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this
requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the wheel?

don't ask me dude - read the op's post!



Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored.

not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're not.



or seat post
clamp?
Uh, yeah, the one on my bike right now. Bog standard OEM Kona seat post
clamp. Google image search "seat clamp" for lots and lots of other
examples.

sure there are examples, but having bothered to look at the clamps on the
bikes in my own garage, they're not all like that. selective data
presentation does not an argument make.


or... bottom line, it doesn't if the head /is/ fully sunk, but
few are.
I think Chalo was needling you,

ya think???



more subtly than others might, about
your tendency to go off half cocked without actually paying attention to
the question.

um, if you say so. but at least i could be bothered to read and context
from the o.p. - which is a good deal more than some people around here can
be bothered to do.


You are correct that in non-counterbored applications a
button head is more secure, but this was a useless response to someone
specifically asking about a counterbored screwhole, in which a button
head will not fit.

except for the ones where they do. check your facts.



I dunno what the big deal is... if a thief wants your stuff, tamper
proof bolts or not, he can get it. I have a set of tamper proof bits
that I bought at Micro Center for about $5, and it fits in a coat
pocket. Has allen, Torx, and those weird 2-hole ones like you see in
public restrooms. Probably the only truly theft proof solution would be
screws with a one-way head, but that would cause other issues.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 17:30:25 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

jim beam wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote:

On Nov 1, 6:40 am, jim beam wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:23:10 -0700, Chalo wrote:
jim beam wrote:
Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:
Doesn't look they have any socket head cap screws. Pan or button
heads might work, but I'd check to make sure that the head
diameter isn't too great to fit into the counterbore where the old
cap heads formerly lived.
if you want tamper resistance to have a chance of being effective,
you need button heads.
What difference would that make, if the head is sunk in a
counterbore?
Chalo
have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored?
I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this
requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the wheel?

don't ask me dude - read the op's post!



Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored.

not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're
not.



or seat post
clamp?
Uh, yeah, the one on my bike right now. Bog standard OEM Kona seat
post clamp. Google image search "seat clamp" for lots and lots of
other examples.

sure there are examples, but having bothered to look at the clamps on
the bikes in my own garage, they're not all like that. selective data
presentation does not an argument make.


or... bottom line, it doesn't if the head /is/ fully sunk, but
few are.
I think Chalo was needling you,

ya think???



more subtly than others might, about
your tendency to go off half cocked without actually paying attention
to the question.

um, if you say so. but at least i could be bothered to read and
context from the o.p. - which is a good deal more than some people
around here can be bothered to do.


You are correct that in non-counterbored applications a button head is
more secure, but this was a useless response to someone specifically
asking about a counterbored screwhole, in which a button head will not
fit.

except for the ones where they do. check your facts.



I dunno what the big deal is... if a thief wants your stuff, tamper
proof bolts or not, he can get it.

indeed - thrown the whole damned thing in the back of the truck and drive
away. most forms of locking device are pretty much pointless for nice
bikes - i don't use them.



I have a set of tamper proof bits
that I bought at Micro Center for about $5, and it fits in a coat
pocket. Has allen, Torx, and those weird 2-hole ones like you see in
public restrooms. Probably the only truly theft proof solution would be
screws with a one-way head, but that would cause other issues.

nate

"jim beam" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote:


have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored?

I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this
requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the wheel?

don't ask me dude - read the op's post!

If _you_ had read the OP's post you would have known that he said disk brake
CALIPERS, not the disks themselves.


Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored.

not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're not.


Uh, yeah, the one on my bike right now. Bog standard OEM Kona seat post
clamp. Google image search "seat clamp" for lots and lots of other
examples.

sure there are examples, but having bothered to look at the clamps on the
bikes in my own garage, they're not all like that. selective data
presentation does not an argument make.



um, if you say so. but at least i could be bothered to read and context
from the o.p. - which is a good deal more than some people around here can
be bothered to do.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

On Nov 1, 4:30*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
jim beam wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote:

On Nov 1, 6:40 am, jim beam wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:23:10 -0700, Chalo wrote:
jim beam wrote:
Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:
Doesn't look they have any socket head cap screws. Pan or button
heads might work, but I'd check to make sure that the head
diameter isn't too great to fit into the counterbore where the old
cap heads formerly lived.
if you want tamper resistance to have a chance of being effective,
you need button heads.
What difference would that make, if the head is sunk in a
counterbore?
Chalo
have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored?
I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this
requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the wheel?

don't ask me dude - read the op's post!

Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored.

not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're not.

On Nov 1, 2:28*pm, jim beam wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote:
On Nov 1, 6:40*am, jim beam wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:23:10 -0700, Chalo wrote:
jim beam wrote:

Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:

Doesn't look they have any socket head cap screws. Pan or button
heads might work, but I'd check to make sure that the head
diameter isn't too great to fit into the counterbore where the old
cap heads formerly lived.

if you want tamper resistance to have a chance of being effective,
you need button heads.

What difference would that make, if the head is sunk in a
counterbore?

Chalo

have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored?

I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this
requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the wheel?

don't ask me dude - read the op's post!

"Disk brake calipers, seat posts, seats, handlebars, stems, etc." As I
remembered, brake disks are not mentioned. Fair point though -- I'll
be sure to not ask you questions you don't know the answers to in the
future.


Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored.

not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're not.

To the extent that one cannot use a button head screw on them, they
are.

*or seat post
clamp?

Uh, yeah, the one on my bike right now. Bog standard OEM Kona seat post
clamp. Google image search "seat clamp" for lots and lots of other
examples.

sure there are examples, but having bothered to look at the clamps on the
bikes in my own garage, they're not all like that. *selective data
presentation does not an argument make.

Hmm. "Have you ever seen a seat post clamp that's counterbored?"
becomes "They're not all like that." I always thought it was kind of
embarrassing to move the goalposts so blatantly.

So your point is, when someone asks about a part that has a
counterbored hole, it is appropriate to suggest a solution that does
not work on in that application, because the solution would be
appropriate to some other products that are... not being discussed.
Yes, that makes a lot of sense.

*or... *bottom line, it doesn't if the head /is/ fully sunk, but
few are.

I think Chalo was needling you,

ya think???

more subtly than others might, about
your tendency to go off half cocked without actually paying attention to
the question.

um, if you say so. *but at least i could be bothered to read and context
from the o.p. - which is a good deal more than some people around here can
be bothered to do.

Except for the two failures to bother evidenced in this last message,
sure.


You are correct that in non-counterbored applications a
button head is more secure, but this was a useless response to someone
specifically asking about a counterbored screwhole, in which a button
head will not fit.

except for the ones where they do. *check your facts.

Fair request. Standard counterbore diameters:
http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-cb-metric.htm

Typical button screw head diameters:
http://www.mjvail.com/holokrome/dd_bhcs_metric.html
(dig the note about fastener strength! Yeah, let's put these on a
brake caliper...):

Now, oversize counterbores exist, sure. Have you ever seen one on a
brake caliper mount? Or a seat post clamp?

-pm

On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 15:26:01 -0700, pm wrote:

On Nov 1, 2:28Â*pm, jim beam wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote:
On Nov 1, 6:40Â*am, jim beam wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:23:10 -0700, Chalo wrote:
jim beam wrote:

Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:

Doesn't look they have any socket head cap screws. Pan or
button heads might work, but I'd check to make sure that the
head diameter isn't too great to fit into the counterbore where
the old cap heads formerly lived.

if you want tamper resistance to have a chance of being
effective, you need button heads.

What difference would that make, if the head is sunk in a
counterbore?

Chalo

have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored?

I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this
requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the
wheel?

don't ask me dude - read the op's post!

"Disk brake calipers, seat posts, seats, handlebars, stems, etc." As I
remembered, brake disks are not mentioned. Fair point though -- I'll be
sure to not ask you questions you don't know the answers to in the
future.

eh?




Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored.

not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're
not.

To the extent that one cannot use a button head screw on them, they are.

eh?

http://www.fullermetric.com/technica...tton_head.html

m6 button head has a max diameter of 10.50mm

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tabl...cap_screws.htm

m6 machine screw max diameter 10.00mm

if your counterboring is accurate to within 0.25mm, you must have an
exceptional bike. because my bikes will take both heads in the same
hole. and yes, i have checked.




Â*or seat post
clamp?

Uh, yeah, the one on my bike right now. Bog standard OEM Kona seat
post clamp. Google image search "seat clamp" for lots and lots of
other examples.

sure there are examples, but having bothered to look at the clamps on
the bikes in my own garage, they're not all like that. Â*selective data
presentation does not an argument make.

Hmm. "Have you ever seen a seat post clamp that's counterbored?" becomes
"They're not all like that." I always thought it was kind of
embarrassing to move the goalposts so blatantly.

snip remaining blah

so, blanket assumptions that /all/ bikes are like your "bog standard"
single case kona are ok, but all other cases must be moving the goal
posts??? so glad we cleared that one up then.

"landotter" wrote in message
...
On Nov 1, 4:30 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:
jim beam wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote:

On Nov 1, 6:40 am, jim beam wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:23:10 -0700, Chalo wrote:
jim beam wrote:
Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:
Doesn't look they have any socket head cap screws. Pan or button
heads might work, but I'd check to make sure that the head
diameter isn't too great to fit into the counterbore where the old
cap heads formerly lived.
if you want tamper resistance to have a chance of being effective,
you need button heads.
What difference would that make, if the head is sunk in a
counterbore?
Chalo
have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored?
I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this
requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the wheel?

don't ask me dude - read the op's post!

Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored.

not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're
not.

or seat post
clamp?
Uh, yeah, the one on my bike right now. Bog standard OEM Kona seat
post
clamp. Google image search "seat clamp" for lots and lots of other
examples.

sure there are examples, but having bothered to look at the clamps on
the
bikes in my own garage, they're not all like that. selective data
presentation does not an argument make.

or... bottom line, it doesn't if the head /is/ fully sunk, but
few are.
I think Chalo was needling you,

ya think???

more subtly than others might, about
your tendency to go off half cocked without actually paying attention
to
the question.

um, if you say so. but at least i could be bothered to read and context
from the o.p. - which is a good deal more than some people around here
can
be bothered to do.

You are correct that in non-counterbored applications a
button head is more secure, but this was a useless response to someone
specifically asking about a counterbored screwhole, in which a button
head will not fit.

except for the ones where they do. check your facts.

I dunno what the big deal is... if a thief wants your stuff, tamper
proof bolts or not, he can get it. I have a set of tamper proof bits
that I bought at Micro Center for about $5, and it fits in a coat
pocket. Has allen, Torx, and those weird 2-hole ones like you see in
public restrooms. Probably the only truly theft proof solution would be
screws with a one-way head, but that would cause other issues.


Bottom line is: don't lock fancy bikes in high risk areas with great
frequency. If people really want your bike, it's theirs. That's why my
daily rider is a boring $400 bike with "secret" upgrades like
handbuilt wheels, good brake shoes, etc, but no bling post, stem, or
brake calipers. I see waaaay too many posts on Craigslist that say,
"new bike last seen by Vandy/Belmont, please help find..." What looks
attractive in a showroom looks really fantastic when locked up at a
bike rack...


This is why, when I ride my cross bike and park somewhere downtown, I
always take the disk calipers with me, along with the wheels, cranks (with
pedals), seat post, derailleurs -- sometimes the fork and bars if it is a
bad part of town. I just hope that the thieves don't have BB tools. -- Jay
Beattie.

On Nov 1, 6:31*pm, "Jay Beattie" wrote:
"landotter" wrote in message

...
On Nov 1, 4:30 pm, Nate Nagel wrote:



jim beam wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 13:30:18 -0700, pm wrote:

On Nov 1, 6:40 am, jim beam wrote:
On Sat, 01 Nov 2008 01:23:10 -0700, Chalo wrote:
jim beam wrote:
Mike Rocket J Squirrel wrote:
Doesn't look they have any socket head cap screws. Pan or button
heads might work, but I'd check to make sure that the head
diameter isn't too great to fit into the counterbore where the old
cap heads formerly lived.
if you want tamper resistance to have a chance of being effective,
you need button heads.
What difference would that make, if the head is sunk in a
counterbore?
Chalo
have you ever seen a bike brake disk that's counterbored?
I doubt that people are unbolting and stealing brake disks -- this
requires you to remove the wheel, which, why not just steal the wheel?

don't ask me dude - read the op's post!

Disk brake caliper mounts are often counterbored.

not to the extent that you can't still get visegrips on them they're
not.

or seat post
clamp?
Uh, yeah, the one on my bike right now. Bog standard OEM Kona seat
post
clamp. Google image search "seat clamp" for lots and lots of other
examples.

sure there are examples, but having bothered to look at the clamps on
the
bikes in my own garage, they're not all like that. selective data
presentation does not an argument make.

or... bottom line, it doesn't if the head /is/ fully sunk, but
few are.
I think Chalo was needling you,

ya think???

more subtly than others might, about
your tendency to go off half cocked without actually paying attention
to
the question.

um, if you say so. but at least i could be bothered to read and context
from the o.p. - which is a good deal more than some people around here
can
be bothered to do.

You are correct that in non-counterbored applications a
button head is more secure, but this was a useless response to someone
specifically asking about a counterbored screwhole, in which a button
head will not fit.

except for the ones where they do. check your facts.

I dunno what the big deal is... if a thief wants your stuff, tamper
proof bolts or not, he can get it. I have a set of tamper proof bits
that I bought at Micro Center for about $5, and it fits in a coat
pocket. Has allen, Torx, and those weird 2-hole ones like you see in
public restrooms. Probably the only truly theft proof solution would be
screws with a one-way head, but that would cause other issues.

Bottom line is: don't lock fancy bikes in high risk areas with great
frequency. If people really want your bike, it's theirs. That's why my
daily rider is a boring $400 bike with "secret" upgrades like
handbuilt wheels, good brake shoes, etc, but no bling post, stem, or
brake calipers. I see waaaay too many posts on Craigslist that say,
"new bike last seen by Vandy/Belmont, please help find..." What looks
attractive in a showroom looks really fantastic when locked up at a
bike rack...

This is why, when I ride my cross bike and park somewhere downtown, I
always take the disk calipers with me, *along with the wheels, cranks (with
pedals), seat post, derailleurs -- sometimes the fork and bars *if it is a
bad part of town. I just hope that the thieves don't have BB tools. -- Jay
Beattie.

If you parked in the same spot in Gothenburg or Amsterdam at night--
you might very well come back to a caliper-less bike. Some big cities,
like Chicago, aren't so bad for some reason. Here you mainly get
accessories swiped, but who knows when that'll change.

On Nov 1, 4:30*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:

I dunno what the big deal is... if a thief wants your stuff, tamper
proof bolts or not, he can get it. *I have a set of tamper proof bits
that I bought at Micro Center for about $5, and it fits in a coat
pocket. *Has allen, Torx, and those weird 2-hole ones like you see in
public restrooms. *Probably the only truly theft proof solution would be
screws with a one-way head, but that would cause other issues.

The same places that sell the tamper-proof screws (and the bit kits
like yours) also sell "one way" bolt removers. They bite into the head
of the screw and chew it up somewhat, so perhaps a better name would
be 'one-use' bolts.

It's a bit like that old saw about locks keeping honest people out.