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#451
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What Motorist Advocacy Does For Cycling
On 3/15/2011 8:49 AM, Duane Hebert wrote:
On 3/14/2011 5:45 PM, Peter Cole wrote: On 3/14/2011 5:14 PM, AMuzi wrote: Peter Cole wrote: On 3/14/2011 1:54 PM, AMuzi wrote: Peter Cole wrote: On 3/13/2011 10:21 PM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote: On 3/13/2011 8:31 PM, Phil W Lee wrote: Nate considered Sun, 13 Mar 2011 20:53:44 -0400 the perfect time to write: On 03/13/2011 08:33 PM, Dan O wrote: On Mar 13, 5:09 pm, Duane wrote: On 3/13/2011 6:55 PM, T m Sherm n _ wrote: On 3/13/2011 5:50 PM, Duane Hebert wrote: On 3/13/2011 6:18 PM, Peter Cole wrote: snip So flip him off& keep riding. Works for me. Seriously, as I posted above, how is it that the same people urging taking the lane and ignoring the upset caused the motorist by having to slow down, seem to be the same people saying that if we have bike facilities, motorists may think that we belong only in bike facilities. BTW I would think it more of an issue with separate facilities then bike lanes. if I'm on a road with a lane marked for my bike, I'm likely in it anyway unless there are obstacles. The people who are already afraid of motor vehicles are not going to deal well with intimidating behavior, such as speeding up and braking at the last second behind the cyclist, or pulling alongside, then swerving towards the cyclist. Not sure what you mean. I'm with the flip him off and keep riding idea. Doesn't matter to me what he's upset about. Besides, your description of intimidating behavior sounds like a normal day on the road. At least some days... Motorist hostility abounds. This will never change until laws and transportation policy (including the economics of private motor vehicle tranport - subsidies allowed for those in need) change to pummel the car culture into submission. I think that's just a simplification of a more widespread issue with US culture, which is that people in general are rude and tend not to think things through very much. It just so happens that the vast majority of people who are old enough to drive use a motor vehicle as their primary means of transportation. They'd still be rude if they were walking on a sidewalk. Generally, it's less of a problem without the perception of anonymity and invulnerability that being hidden inside a car engenders. And it isn't just in the US - it's anywhere that doesn't have the civilising influence of presumed liability laws (which personally, I don't believe go far enough even where they exist). However, the US has a popular culture that glorifies solving problems with violence. In the US we kill each other, in Japan they kill themselves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Japan As Berra noted, 'you can see a lot by just looking' : http://danmark.wordpress.com/2006/07...-nations-ever/ specifically http://www.lilliput-information.com/...s/intkrim1.gif and then we find: http://fathersforlife.org/health/who_suicide_rates.htm So maybe Japan isn't 'world class' in seppuku and maybe the Scandivaians are 'multi tasking' in both events. USA has a lot of murders. But then again we have a lot of people. "America is big and diverse. We have one of everything" is my usual expression. Outliers are not trends. I'm not sure what your point is. America has roughly 5x the homicide rate and 1/3 the suicide rate of Japan. That's all I was saying. I don't know what you're saying. Just that human behavior is complex and defies simple analyses. But not statistics. One wonders. If you consider the nearly perfect inversion (suicide rate in Japan is widely regarded as under-reported) of homicide and suicide rates, you can't conclude that Japan is less violent, just that the violence is directed differently. History also provides little evidence for Japanese non-violence (not to put too fine a point on it). |
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#452
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What Motorist Advocacy Does For Cycling
On Mar 15, 11:15*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Mar 15, 9:00*am, Duane Hebert wrote: Bike lanes are unequal. *They give me the same right to use as a regular lane gives a motorist and additionally prevent the motorist from access.. They give you the right to use the bike lane. *They tend to take away your right to use the rest of the road - for example, to merge left for turns, to avoid parked car doors, to avoid debris or potholes. Sure, you can still merge out over the line; but in some places you'll be ticketed for doing so. Sure, you may fight the ticket. You might even win; but you'll still be out the time and aggravation. But even more sure, the lane does _not_ prevent the motorist from access. *Any painted line you can ride over, a motorist can drive over. *Your dreaded attack from the rear is still possible. * I like the idea. We know. * But it still makes little sense. http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=htt...com/wordpress/.... http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=htt...ld.com/pete.me.... http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=htt...ort.org/bicycl.... - Frank Krygowski I quote: The city hopes the new lanes will help Charleston motorists remember that they are sharing the road with cyclists. “These bicycle guide markings will create a designated place for bicyclists to ride safely,” says Mayor Joe Riley. “Cyclists operating carefully and motorists operating carefully can coexist in a wonderful urban environment.” *** It's gonna be a hard sale, but inviting the Mayor and the rest of the city planners to ride on said bike lanes once a week or at least once a month, should go a long way toward SAFE BIKE LANES. Say the voters make that a campaign issue. |
#453
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What Motorist Advocacy Does For Cycling
On Mar 15, 8:15*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Mar 15, 9:00*am, Duane Hebert wrote: Bike lanes are unequal. *They give me the same right to use as a regular lane gives a motorist and additionally prevent the motorist from access.. They give you the right to use the bike lane. *They tend to take away your right to use the rest of the road - for example, to merge left for turns, to avoid parked car doors, to avoid debris or potholes. Sure, you can still merge out over the line; but in some places you'll be ticketed for doing so. I'm not aware of any state that makes you stay in the bicycle lane when it is dangerous to do so. Even the regressive Oregon law allows you to leave the bicycle lane to merge left or right for a turn. I think the problems with typical striped bike lanes is that (1) they give cyclists a false sense of security -- that cars will actually regard the lane as a lane and yield right of way, and (2) that at merges (lanes entering or exiting on the right) where the bike lane continue to the right and the cyclist needs to get over to continue straight, cars assume that the bikes will go right -- following the lane no matter what. The Oregon law specifically states that a bicyclist may "continu[e]straight at an intersection where the bicycle lane or path is to the right of a lane from which a motor vehicle must turn right" -- but I persistently get honked at for doing this, and some people actually work at cutting me off. Again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2eS...mbedded#at=271 It's that split at 4:30. Again, I like the additional road surface, and with proper driver education and perhaps appropriate medication for drivers, bicycle lanes could work well. -- Jay Beattie. PS -- the most dangerous part of my commute this morning was other bicyclists who were having difficulty dealing with traffic merging from the right (the bicycle chute by-pass was shut down due to construction). Sometimes you have to jump on the accelerator and not slow down to cope with on-coming traffic from the right. I got stuck behind some dope who didn't know what he was doing (with no room to get around), and we ended up between lanes of fast traffic. I got through the first hole and got the hell out of there. There were flocks of riders out today for some unknown reason. -- Jay Beattie. |
#454
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What Motorist Advocacy Does For Cycling
On Mar 15, 11:49*am, Jay Beattie wrote:
PS -- the most dangerous part of my commute this morning was other bicyclists who were having difficulty dealing with traffic merging from the right (the bicycle chute by-pass was shut down due to construction). *Sometimes you have to jump on the accelerator and not slow down to cope with on-coming traffic from the right. *I got stuck behind some dope who didn't know what he was doing (with no room to get around), and we ended up between lanes of fast traffic. I got through the first hole and got the hell out of there. *There were flocks of riders out today for some unknown reason. -- Jay Beattie. Don't you know? It's celebration time because Deco Bike opens today in Miami Beach! |
#455
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What Motorist Advocacy Does For Cycling
On 3/15/2011 11:49 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:
I'm not aware of any state that makes you stay in the bicycle lane when it is dangerous to do so. Even the regressive Oregon law allows you to leave the bicycle lane to merge left or right for a turn. If one existed, that would be the thing worth fighting but I don't think one exists either. I think the problems with typical striped bike lanes is that (1) they give cyclists a false sense of security -- that cars will actually regard the lane as a lane and yield right of way, and You should never have a sense of security on the road, whether in a car or on a bike. You should drive or ride defensively. Motorists here tend to respect the bike lanes as they get ticketed if they don't. But I wouldn't depend on that. (2) that at merges (lanes entering or exiting on the right) where the bike lane continue to the right and the cyclist needs to get over to continue straight, cars assume that the bikes will go right -- following the lane no matter what. The Oregon law specifically states that a bicyclist may "continu[e]straight at an intersection where the bicycle lane or path is to the right of a lane from which a motor vehicle must turn right" -- but I persistently get honked at for doing this, and some people actually work at cutting me off. Again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2eS...mbedded#at=271 It's that split at 4:30. Again, I like the additional road surface, and with proper driver education and perhaps appropriate medication for drivers, bicycle lanes could work well. I think that they already do in some cases without the additional meds for the drivers. I use a couple during my commute that work pretty well. |
#456
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What Motorist Advocacy Does For Cycling
On 3/15/2011 11:49 AM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Mar 15, 8:15 am, Frank wrote: On Mar 15, 9:00 am, Duane wrote: Bike lanes are unequal. They give me the same right to use as a regular lane gives a motorist and additionally prevent the motorist from access. They give you the right to use the bike lane. They tend to take away your right to use the rest of the road - for example, to merge left for turns, to avoid parked car doors, to avoid debris or potholes. Sure, you can still merge out over the line; but in some places you'll be ticketed for doing so. I'm not aware of any state that makes you stay in the bicycle lane when it is dangerous to do so. Even the regressive Oregon law allows you to leave the bicycle lane to merge left or right for a turn. I think the problems with typical striped bike lanes is that (1) they give cyclists a false sense of security -- that cars will actually regard the lane as a lane and yield right of way, and (2) that at merges (lanes entering or exiting on the right) where the bike lane continue to the right and the cyclist needs to get over to continue straight, cars assume that the bikes will go right -- following the lane no matter what. The Oregon law specifically states that a bicyclist may "continu[e]straight at an intersection where the bicycle lane or path is to the right of a lane from which a motor vehicle must turn right" -- but I persistently get honked at for doing this, and some people actually work at cutting me off. Again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2eS...mbedded#at=271 It's that split at 4:30. Again, I like the additional road surface, and with proper driver education and perhaps appropriate medication for drivers, bicycle lanes could work well. -- Jay Beattie. Phew, if I had to bike commute on that route every day -- well, I wouldn't. As much as commuting in a car sucks, that sucks much worse. Ride with semi's in the rain -- yeah, that'll sell... Man, I just hate riding in the suburbs. |
#457
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What Motorist Advocacy Does For Cycling
On Mar 15, 10:30*am, Peter Cole wrote:
On 3/15/2011 11:49 AM, Jay Beattie wrote: On Mar 15, 8:15 am, Frank *wrote: On Mar 15, 9:00 am, Duane *wrote: Bike lanes are unequal. *They give me the same right to use as a regular lane gives a motorist and additionally prevent the motorist from access. They give you the right to use the bike lane. *They tend to take away your right to use the rest of the road - for example, to merge left for turns, to avoid parked car doors, to avoid debris or potholes. Sure, you can still merge out over the line; but in some places you'll be ticketed for doing so. I'm not aware of any state that makes you stay in the bicycle lane when it is dangerous to do so. Even the regressive Oregon law allows you to leave the bicycle lane to merge left or right for a turn. I think the problems with typical striped bike lanes is that (1) they give cyclists a false sense of security -- that cars will actually regard the lane as a lane and yield right of way, and (2) that at merges (lanes entering or exiting on the right) where the bike lane continue to the right and the cyclist needs to get over to continue straight, cars assume that the bikes will go right -- following the lane no matter what. The Oregon law specifically states that a bicyclist may "continu[e]straight at an intersection where the bicycle lane or path is to the right of a lane from which a motor vehicle must turn right" -- but I persistently get honked at for doing this, and some people actually work at cutting me off. *Again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2eS...er_embedded#at... It's that split at 4:30. Again, I like the additional road surface, and with proper driver education and perhaps appropriate medication for drivers, bicycle lanes could work well. -- Jay Beattie. Phew, if I had to bike commute on that route every day -- well, I wouldn't. As much as commuting in a car sucks, that sucks much worse. Ride with semi's in the rain -- yeah, that'll sell... Man, I just hate riding in the suburbs.- Hide quoted text - Suburbs? Dude, that is like a mile from my office. That is town. Looking south:http://www.flickr.com/photos/the_chirs/1685188578/ Looking north (and a little south): http://www.flickr.com/photos/sowellman/4729142192/ Anothe way to work. -- Jay. |
#458
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What Motorist Advocacy Does For Cycling
Duane Hebert writes:
On 3/14/2011 8:32 PM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote: On 3/14/2011 8:14 AM, Duane Hebert wrote: On 3/13/2011 10:11 PM, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote: On 3/13/2011 8:59 PM, Duane Hebert wrote: [...] Don't get me wrong. I don't want bike lanes or paths everywhere. Only where they can be useful. Mostly on busy roads in congested cities. Apparently this attitude is untenable to some. Shrug snip How about a wider than normal inner lane with a lower speed limit? Sure. Not sure when that would happen though. Makes more sense to lobby for, than for separate and unequal facilities. Bike lanes are unequal. They give me the same right to use as a regular lane gives a motorist and additionally prevent the motorist from access. I like the idea. Just to expand a bit on the argument: Suppose one had a (say) 25 foot wide lane. That would provide enough room for two cars to drive comfortably, why divide the lane with arbitrary markings? Why not let drivers share the space as they see fit? For some reason, at least in the parts of the world that have been driving the longest, this idea is rarely put into practice for motor vehicles. I wonder why that is? -- |
#459
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What Motorist Advocacy Does For Cycling
On 3/15/2011 2:44 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Mar 15, 10:30 am, Peter wrote: On 3/15/2011 11:49 AM, Jay Beattie wrote: On Mar 15, 8:15 am, Frank wrote: On Mar 15, 9:00 am, Duane wrote: Bike lanes are unequal. They give me the same right to use as a regular lane gives a motorist and additionally prevent the motorist from access. They give you the right to use the bike lane. They tend to take away your right to use the rest of the road - for example, to merge left for turns, to avoid parked car doors, to avoid debris or potholes. Sure, you can still merge out over the line; but in some places you'll be ticketed for doing so. I'm not aware of any state that makes you stay in the bicycle lane when it is dangerous to do so. Even the regressive Oregon law allows you to leave the bicycle lane to merge left or right for a turn. I think the problems with typical striped bike lanes is that (1) they give cyclists a false sense of security -- that cars will actually regard the lane as a lane and yield right of way, and (2) that at merges (lanes entering or exiting on the right) where the bike lane continue to the right and the cyclist needs to get over to continue straight, cars assume that the bikes will go right -- following the lane no matter what. The Oregon law specifically states that a bicyclist may "continu[e]straight at an intersection where the bicycle lane or path is to the right of a lane from which a motor vehicle must turn right" -- but I persistently get honked at for doing this, and some people actually work at cutting me off. Again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2eS...er_embedded#at... It's that split at 4:30. Again, I like the additional road surface, and with proper driver education and perhaps appropriate medication for drivers, bicycle lanes could work well. -- Jay Beattie. Phew, if I had to bike commute on that route every day -- well, I wouldn't. As much as commuting in a car sucks, that sucks much worse. Ride with semi's in the rain -- yeah, that'll sell... Man, I just hate riding in the suburbs.- Hide quoted text - Suburbs? Dude, that is like a mile from my office. That is town. Looking south:http://www.flickr.com/photos/the_chirs/1685188578/ Looking north (and a little south): http://www.flickr.com/photos/sowellman/4729142192/ Anothe way to work. -- Jay. What's the speed limit there? Seems like a pretty decent setup with the bike lanes shown in the picture. How do you find it? I have a similar section on my commute but no lanes and the limit is 90 k/h. A lot of trucks as well. I mentioned that I would appreciate a bike lane there but was derided by the usual suspects. |
#460
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What Motorist Advocacy Does For Cycling
On 3/15/2011 2:44 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Mar 15, 10:30 am, Peter wrote: On 3/15/2011 11:49 AM, Jay Beattie wrote: On Mar 15, 8:15 am, Frank wrote: On Mar 15, 9:00 am, Duane wrote: Bike lanes are unequal. They give me the same right to use as a regular lane gives a motorist and additionally prevent the motorist from access. They give you the right to use the bike lane. They tend to take away your right to use the rest of the road - for example, to merge left for turns, to avoid parked car doors, to avoid debris or potholes. Sure, you can still merge out over the line; but in some places you'll be ticketed for doing so. I'm not aware of any state that makes you stay in the bicycle lane when it is dangerous to do so. Even the regressive Oregon law allows you to leave the bicycle lane to merge left or right for a turn. I think the problems with typical striped bike lanes is that (1) they give cyclists a false sense of security -- that cars will actually regard the lane as a lane and yield right of way, and (2) that at merges (lanes entering or exiting on the right) where the bike lane continue to the right and the cyclist needs to get over to continue straight, cars assume that the bikes will go right -- following the lane no matter what. The Oregon law specifically states that a bicyclist may "continu[e]straight at an intersection where the bicycle lane or path is to the right of a lane from which a motor vehicle must turn right" -- but I persistently get honked at for doing this, and some people actually work at cutting me off. Again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK2eS...er_embedded#at... It's that split at 4:30. Again, I like the additional road surface, and with proper driver education and perhaps appropriate medication for drivers, bicycle lanes could work well. -- Jay Beattie. Phew, if I had to bike commute on that route every day -- well, I wouldn't. As much as commuting in a car sucks, that sucks much worse. Ride with semi's in the rain -- yeah, that'll sell... Man, I just hate riding in the suburbs.- Hide quoted text - Suburbs? Dude, that is like a mile from my office. That is town. Looking south:http://www.flickr.com/photos/the_chirs/1685188578/ Looking north (and a little south): http://www.flickr.com/photos/sowellman/4729142192/ Anothe way to work. -- Jay. Where da people at? |
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