Not much needed in a "Be Seen" light

On Friday, October 31, 2014 2:15:50 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2014 1:12 PM, jbeattie wrote:


No offense, but that looks like about 80% of the roads I ride on in rural
areas around my house -- minus the foliage. http://tinyurl.com/osqq7hq J
ust being on that road means you're taking the lane -- and there isn't much
you can do to about that, except disappear. Riding right on the edge is
dangerous. Taking the lane and blocking traffic for a long time is rude
(and illegal), so I take a place on the road surface where I have room to
maneuver, but a reasonable motorist can still get by crossing the center
line -- which is legal. If heavy on-coming traffic prevents that, then
I'll pull over periodically -- because that is the law and an appropriate
thing to do as a slow moving vehicle.

I agree with all the above, except that IME having to stop to let
traffic by happens only very rarely.

What will make you the most visible on undulating road is a fluorescent
green jersey because maintaining the best sight line means that you would
have to be all over the road -- on the shoulder or near the center line
depending on the turn direction and shape. Frank's lane center "be seen"
position doesn't work well on these types of roads, particularly when
there is a heavy canopy, dappled fall light and a lot of visual pollution..
For example, on a sweeping right turn, you might be more visible on the
shoulder because there is an opening in the tree cover across the outside
arc of the turn.

Let me see if I'm understanding you. Are you really saying there's a
good chance someone will glimpse you on a sharp turn by looking through
gaps in the bushes? And that this can happen while you're on the
shoulder, but not while you're at lane center? Sounds amazingly
hypothetical.

No. I'm talking about a break in the foliage that lets light through. We get hard, dappled light through the tree canopy, and depending on the angle of the sun, your direction and whether a driver is wearing sunglasses, you can get lost in the shade. Your best road position to be seen is "not in the shade." This is only a problem in late summer and early fall -- or just before dusk during summer. Strange but true.

Joerg should go ride where it's really dangerous. Kentucky -- with coal trucks. That was some of the scariest riding I ever did. https://www.youtube..com/watch?v=J-g2M4si8WQ The trucks are gigantic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHOHXjckSdc

-- Jay Beattie.

Frank Krygowski writes:

On 10/31/2014 1:12 PM, jbeattie wrote:


No offense, but that looks like about 80% of the roads I ride on in rural
areas around my house -- minus the foliage. http://tinyurl.com/osqq7hq J
ust being on that road means you're taking the lane -- and there isn't much
you can do to about that, except disappear. Riding right on the edge is
dangerous. Taking the lane and blocking traffic for a long time is rude
(and illegal), so I take a place on the road surface where I have room to
maneuver, but a reasonable motorist can still get by crossing the center
line -- which is legal. If heavy on-coming traffic prevents that, then
I'll pull over periodically -- because that is the law and an appropriate
thing to do as a slow moving vehicle.

I agree with all the above, except that IME having to stop to let
traffic by happens only very rarely.

What will make you the most visible on undulating road is a fluorescent
green jersey because maintaining the best sight line means that you would
have to be all over the road -- on the shoulder or near the center line
depending on the turn direction and shape. Frank's lane center "be seen"
position doesn't work well on these types of roads, particularly when
there is a heavy canopy, dappled fall light and a lot of visual pollution.
For example, on a sweeping right turn, you might be more visible on the
shoulder because there is an opening in the tree cover across the outside
arc of the turn.

Let me see if I'm understanding you. Are you really saying there's a
good chance someone will glimpse you on a sharp turn by looking
through gaps in the bushes? And that this can happen while you're on
the shoulder, but not while you're at lane center? Sounds amazingly
hypothetical.

I think he's saying that you should "ride into the light"; i.e. if the
road is partially illuminated, you'll be more visible where the light
is striking you.

We have similar twisty roads in San Diego, but even less foilage, so
generally better visibility. A couple weeks ago, while in a car, we
caught up to seem cyclists on a climbing, twisting road. Waited for a
minute or so to get by. The black jerseys they were wearing (a local
club) wasn't the best choice for the conditions. This was at about
5000 feet, outside Julian, so lots of tree cover.

--
Joe Riel

On 10/31/2014 6:04 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 31, 2014 2:15:50 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Let me see if I'm understanding you. Are you really saying there's a
good chance someone will glimpse you on a sharp turn by looking through
gaps in the bushes? And that this can happen while you're on the
shoulder, but not while you're at lane center? Sounds amazingly
hypothetical.

No. I'm talking about a break in the foliage that lets light through.
We get hard, dappled light through the tree canopy, and depending on the
angle of the sun, your direction and whether a driver is wearing
sunglasses,
you can get lost in the shade. Your best road position to be seen is
"not in the shade."

Ah. OK, that makes more sense.

--
- Frank Krygowski

jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 31, 2014 2:15:50 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2014 1:12 PM, jbeattie wrote:


No offense, but that looks like about 80% of the roads I ride on in rural
areas around my house -- minus the foliage. http://tinyurl.com/osqq7hq J
ust being on that road means you're taking the lane -- and there isn't much
you can do to about that, except disappear. Riding right on the edge is
dangerous. Taking the lane and blocking traffic for a long time is rude
(and illegal), so I take a place on the road surface where I have room to
maneuver, but a reasonable motorist can still get by crossing the center
line -- which is legal. If heavy on-coming traffic prevents that, then
I'll pull over periodically -- because that is the law and an appropriate
thing to do as a slow moving vehicle.

I agree with all the above, except that IME having to stop to let
traffic by happens only very rarely.

What will make you the most visible on undulating road is a fluorescent
green jersey because maintaining the best sight line means that you would
have to be all over the road -- on the shoulder or near the center line
depending on the turn direction and shape. Frank's lane center "be seen"
position doesn't work well on these types of roads, particularly when
there is a heavy canopy, dappled fall light and a lot of visual pollution.
For example, on a sweeping right turn, you might be more visible on the
shoulder because there is an opening in the tree cover across the outside
arc of the turn.

Let me see if I'm understanding you. Are you really saying there's a
good chance someone will glimpse you on a sharp turn by looking through
gaps in the bushes? And that this can happen while you're on the
shoulder, but not while you're at lane center? Sounds amazingly
hypothetical.

No. I'm talking about a break in the foliage that lets light through. We
get hard, dappled light through the tree canopy, and depending on the
angle of the sun, your direction and whether a driver is wearing
sunglasses, you can get lost in the shade. Your best road position to be
seen is "not in the shade." This is only a problem in late summer and
early fall -- or just before dusk during summer. Strange but true.

Joerg should go ride where it's really dangerous. Kentucky -- with coal
trucks. That was some of the scariest riding I ever did.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-g2M4si8WQ The trucks are gigantic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHOHXjckSdc


Logging trucks in Gaspé are the worst I can imagine. Beautiful place to
ride though.


--
duane

jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 31, 2014 12:45:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 31, 2014 7:23:22 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/30/2014 8:49 PM, Joerg wrote:
Phil W Lee wrote:
Wrong. Lane position is very much about ensuring that
drivers DON'T see you too late on a narrow road.
Sorry, there you are wrong. This does not apply to
mountainous roads like many out here. Drivers tend to go
too fast around curves, assuming there is nothing bedind
that is much slower than they are. If there is ...
screeeech ... *KAPOW*
Care to give us a map link to one of these amazingly
dangerous roads? It might be interesting for us to view it
using Google Street View.

One road within cycling distance from here where I had a close
call with a motorcycle rider is Salmon Falls Road. You have to
follow the whole length to see the various curves and assume
high speeds of vehicles because this road makes people think
they are almost as good as Mario Andretti:

http://goo.gl/maps/Bqoji

Or check out Trinity Road in Napa:

http://goo.gl/maps/PGaMI

Lots and lots more around here.
No offense, but that looks like about 80% of the roads I ride on
in rural areas around my house -- minus the foliage.
http://tinyurl.com/osqq7hq Just being on that road means you're
taking the lane -- and there isn't much you can do to about that,
except disappear. Riding right on the edge is dangerous.
Taking the lane and blocking traffic for a long time is rude (and
illegal), so I take a place on the road surface where I have room
to maneuver, but a reasonable motorist can still get by crossing
the center line -- which is legal. If heavy on-coming traffic
prevents that, then I'll pull over periodically -- because that
is the law and an appropriate thing to do as a slow moving
vehicle.

Well ... here I was on Salmon Falls Road, southbound shortly before
Salmon Falls Bridge (the one across the American River), hugging
the curve. And glad that I was. Out of the blue a loudly screaming
engine. The noise abruptly became much less and I saw a black
helmet fly by, less than 2ft from my left arm. It was attached to a
rider who in turn was attached to a yellow bike that looked like a
Kawasaki Ninja. After the curve he straightened out, slowed down to
a crawl and looked back. I waived an "I'm ok and it's cool" and he
slowly accelerated again but proceeded much more cautiously. I
guess that gave him a scare. Had I been in the middle of the lane
this would have been an ugly crash.

Later when I returned I paused at the northbound parking lot and
ate a snack. During that short time I saw numerous folks on hot
motorbike scream through that same curve, leaning almost until the
extended inbound knee scraped the road surface.


What will make you the most visible on undulating road is a
fluorescent green jersey because maintaining the best sight line
means that you would have to be all over the road -- on the
shoulder or near the center line depending on the turn direction
and shape. Frank's lane center "be seen" position doesn't work
well on these types of roads,

Often it doesn't work at all. Because you are behind a curve and
something behind you is approaching at max possible speed. If you
took the lane a driver at such speed only has two choices: Evade
and lose control or crash into you. There is no third choice.


... particularly when there is a heavy canopy, dappled fall light
and a lot of visual pollution. For example, on a sweeping right
turn, you might be more visible on the shoulder because there is
an opening in the tree cover across the outside arc of the turn.
On low light fall days, I use a flasher. Depending on the
traffic, staying farther right is safer, particularly riding on
the other side of a blind right hand turn. But you can't ride so
far over that you're at risk of falling off the road surface.

Thank gawd we have ears. I listen for traffic, and in fact, on
the road shown above, I ran in to an entire Harley club, which
sounded like a squadron of P51 preparing for take-off. They were
doing loops through the Bull Run watershed, so I got to play leap
frog with them for about an hour.

That road isn't very curvy and Harley riders are usually not quite
as aggressive in their riding style. Plus a "real" Harley can be
heard from two miles away. Our roads usually have a serious grade
so the din from motorcycles coming up the hill typically drowns out
anything coming down.

Well, pick a grade, twistiness and motorcycle type, and I will tell
you that we have that, too. Really. All of the West has that. I deal
with it here, and I dealt with it when I lived in California. This
hill is not far from my house:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NPqQptjbF0 Guy proving a point on a
motorcycle -- twisting road, steep grades, etc. Take out all the
trees, dry out the pavement, throw in some brown grass, valley oak
and bay . . . and viola, California. Sure, the Sierra has longer
climbs (and so do we in the Cascades), but its all the same kind of
stuff. The only thing different about the Sierra are the cattle
grates -- real and painted. It takes a while getting used to hitting
those at 50+ mph. But that has nothing to do with coping with
traffic.


Now imagine all this uphill, a cyclist crawling up the hill in lane
center, situation at 1:50 and the van coming right in the curve - Smash.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joerg writes:

jbeattie wrote:

Well, pick a grade, twistiness and motorcycle type, and I will tell
you that we have that, too. Really. All of the West has that. I deal
with it here, and I dealt with it when I lived in California. This
hill is not far from my house:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NPqQptjbF0 Guy proving a point on a
motorcycle -- twisting road, steep grades, etc. Take out all the
trees, dry out the pavement, throw in some brown grass, valley oak
and bay . . . and viola, California. Sure, the Sierra has longer
climbs (and so do we in the Cascades), but its all the same kind of
stuff. The only thing different about the Sierra are the cattle
grates -- real and painted. It takes a while getting used to hitting
those at 50+ mph. But that has nothing to do with coping with
traffic.


Now imagine all this uphill, a cyclist crawling up the hill in lane
center, situation at 1:50 and the van coming right in the curve - Smash.

You mean the van would have crossed the center line to pass the
bicyclist in a blind corner, as the motorcylist was coming down? Yeah,
it's a concern, I've seen quite a few cases where car drivers pass in
blind corners. In that video it seems like the motorcyclist would be
most at risk.

--
Joe Riel

Joerg wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 31, 2014 12:45:59 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 31, 2014 7:23:22 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/30/2014 8:49 PM, Joerg wrote:
Phil W Lee wrote:
Wrong. Lane position is very much about ensuring that
drivers DON'T see you too late on a narrow road.
Sorry, there you are wrong. This does not apply to
mountainous roads like many out here. Drivers tend to go
too fast around curves, assuming there is nothing bedind
that is much slower than they are. If there is ...
screeeech ... *KAPOW*
Care to give us a map link to one of these amazingly
dangerous roads? It might be interesting for us to view it
using Google Street View.

One road within cycling distance from here where I had a close
call with a motorcycle rider is Salmon Falls Road. You have to
follow the whole length to see the various curves and assume
high speeds of vehicles because this road makes people think
they are almost as good as Mario Andretti:

http://goo.gl/maps/Bqoji

Or check out Trinity Road in Napa:

http://goo.gl/maps/PGaMI

Lots and lots more around here.
No offense, but that looks like about 80% of the roads I ride on
in rural areas around my house -- minus the foliage.
http://tinyurl.com/osqq7hq Just being on that road means you're
taking the lane -- and there isn't much you can do to about that,
except disappear. Riding right on the edge is dangerous.
Taking the lane and blocking traffic for a long time is rude (and
illegal), so I take a place on the road surface where I have room
to maneuver, but a reasonable motorist can still get by crossing
the center line -- which is legal. If heavy on-coming traffic
prevents that, then I'll pull over periodically -- because that
is the law and an appropriate thing to do as a slow moving
vehicle.

Well ... here I was on Salmon Falls Road, southbound shortly before
Salmon Falls Bridge (the one across the American River), hugging
the curve. And glad that I was. Out of the blue a loudly screaming
engine. The noise abruptly became much less and I saw a black
helmet fly by, less than 2ft from my left arm. It was attached to a
rider who in turn was attached to a yellow bike that looked like a
Kawasaki Ninja. After the curve he straightened out, slowed down to
a crawl and looked back. I waived an "I'm ok and it's cool" and he
slowly accelerated again but proceeded much more cautiously. I
guess that gave him a scare. Had I been in the middle of the lane
this would have been an ugly crash.

Later when I returned I paused at the northbound parking lot and
ate a snack. During that short time I saw numerous folks on hot
motorbike scream through that same curve, leaning almost until the
extended inbound knee scraped the road surface.


What will make you the most visible on undulating road is a
fluorescent green jersey because maintaining the best sight line
means that you would have to be all over the road -- on the
shoulder or near the center line depending on the turn direction
and shape. Frank's lane center "be seen" position doesn't work
well on these types of roads,
Often it doesn't work at all. Because you are behind a curve and
something behind you is approaching at max possible speed. If you
took the lane a driver at such speed only has two choices: Evade
and lose control or crash into you. There is no third choice.


... particularly when there is a heavy canopy, dappled fall light
and a lot of visual pollution. For example, on a sweeping right
turn, you might be more visible on the shoulder because there is
an opening in the tree cover across the outside arc of the turn.
On low light fall days, I use a flasher. Depending on the
traffic, staying farther right is safer, particularly riding on
the other side of a blind right hand turn. But you can't ride so
far over that you're at risk of falling off the road surface.

Thank gawd we have ears. I listen for traffic, and in fact, on
the road shown above, I ran in to an entire Harley club, which
sounded like a squadron of P51 preparing for take-off. They were
doing loops through the Bull Run watershed, so I got to play leap
frog with them for about an hour.
That road isn't very curvy and Harley riders are usually not quite
as aggressive in their riding style. Plus a "real" Harley can be
heard from two miles away. Our roads usually have a serious grade
so the din from motorcycles coming up the hill typically drowns out
anything coming down.
Well, pick a grade, twistiness and motorcycle type, and I will tell
you that we have that, too. Really. All of the West has that. I deal
with it here, and I dealt with it when I lived in California. This
hill is not far from my house:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NPqQptjbF0 Guy proving a point on a
motorcycle -- twisting road, steep grades, etc. Take out all the
trees, dry out the pavement, throw in some brown grass, valley oak
and bay . . . and viola, California. Sure, the Sierra has longer
climbs (and so do we in the Cascades), but its all the same kind of
stuff. The only thing different about the Sierra are the cattle
grates -- real and painted. It takes a while getting used to hitting
those at 50+ mph. But that has nothing to do with coping with
traffic.


Now imagine all this uphill, a cyclist crawling up the hill in lane
center, situation at 1:50 and the van coming right in the curve - Smash.


BTW, at 1:25min is the curve where I would have been hit by a Kawasaki
if I had been lane center:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE5vk00-nYE

A large majority ride a lot faster:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3liBuoXDTik

This my favorite kind of "road" down there, no cars, no motorcycles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAU4k1_QpqA

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Joe Riel wrote:
Joerg writes:

jbeattie wrote:
Well, pick a grade, twistiness and motorcycle type, and I will tell
you that we have that, too. Really. All of the West has that. I deal
with it here, and I dealt with it when I lived in California. This
hill is not far from my house:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NPqQptjbF0 Guy proving a point on a
motorcycle -- twisting road, steep grades, etc. Take out all the
trees, dry out the pavement, throw in some brown grass, valley oak
and bay . . . and viola, California. Sure, the Sierra has longer
climbs (and so do we in the Cascades), but its all the same kind of
stuff. The only thing different about the Sierra are the cattle
grates -- real and painted. It takes a while getting used to hitting
those at 50+ mph. But that has nothing to do with coping with
traffic.

Now imagine all this uphill, a cyclist crawling up the hill in lane
center, situation at 1:50 and the van coming right in the curve - Smash.

You mean the van would have crossed the center line to pass the
bicyclist in a blind corner, as the motorcylist was coming down?


No, the van stays in its lane but blocks the motorcycle rider from being
able to veer into the opposite lane when he sees a lane center cyclist
(emergency maneuver).


... Yeah,
it's a concern, I've seen quite a few cases where car drivers pass in
blind corners. In that video it seems like the motorcyclist would be
most at risk.


The typical scenario on a road like Salmon Falls out here is that most
motorcycle riders do anticipate oncoming traffic but they calculate
their curve speeds assuming full lane use. Center line - hug shoulder
inside - drift towards center line. The daredevils among them do not
anticipate an obstacle in the road, such as a cyclist riding way in the
lane. As a cyclist I see them coming while in the middle of the curve
and they see me. But when I am behind the curve they don't and I might
not hear them. "Taking the lane" on such roads is pretty close to suicide.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, October 31, 2014 4:53:10 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
Joe Riel wrote:
Joerg writes:

jbeattie wrote:
Well, pick a grade, twistiness and motorcycle type, and I will tell
you that we have that, too. Really. All of the West has that. I deal
with it here, and I dealt with it when I lived in California. This
hill is not far from my house:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NPqQptjbF0 Guy proving a point on a
motorcycle -- twisting road, steep grades, etc. Take out all the
trees, dry out the pavement, throw in some brown grass, valley oak
and bay . . . and viola, California. Sure, the Sierra has longer
climbs (and so do we in the Cascades), but its all the same kind of
stuff. The only thing different about the Sierra are the cattle
grates -- real and painted. It takes a while getting used to hitting
those at 50+ mph. But that has nothing to do with coping with
traffic.

Now imagine all this uphill, a cyclist crawling up the hill in lane
center, situation at 1:50 and the van coming right in the curve - Smash.

You mean the van would have crossed the center line to pass the
bicyclist in a blind corner, as the motorcylist was coming down?


No, the van stays in its lane but blocks the motorcycle rider from being
able to veer into the opposite lane when he sees a lane center cyclist
(emergency maneuver).


He's descending incrementally faster than I am and will see me for a number of turns before he catches. That section with the van is about a 12% grade and off camber turn, so he'd have to slow somewhat and would see me going through the turn -- unless I'm just standing there. Plus, where else could I be? You don't creep along the right side of the road when you're descending. You're in the middle of the road, trying not to cross the center line. My issue in that turn would be avoiding the van.

Going up is where you might run in to trouble, but I never have -- not on that road. Cars speed up and down a lot of the routes through the West Hills because they are arterials between downtown and the suburbs. I haven't been hit, but I've stopped riding one of these roads because it has turned into a miserable, shoulderless raceway -- and it wasn't a route that I particularly liked anyway.

This is a commute route for some, and if I want to throw in a few miles before work, I'll go this way. Note that cars pass at the top until you get up to speed, which can be 50+ mph, assuming no car-clog. https://www.youtube..com/watch?v=S2FB_qLvy0M

I always take the lane except on the little climb (cut from the video -- before the tunnels), where I stay to the right. At rush hour, that road is like a conga line. It's the lovely result of urban planning. Lots of houses and no roads -- except the old, congested highway that everyone avoids by ratting out through the hills.

-- Jay Beattie.

jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, October 31, 2014 4:53:10 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
Joe Riel wrote:
Joerg writes:

jbeattie wrote:
Well, pick a grade, twistiness and motorcycle type, and I
will tell you that we have that, too. Really. All of the West
has that. I deal with it here, and I dealt with it when I
lived in California. This hill is not far from my house:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NPqQptjbF0 Guy proving a
point on a motorcycle -- twisting road, steep grades, etc.
Take out all the trees, dry out the pavement, throw in some
brown grass, valley oak and bay . . . and viola, California.
Sure, the Sierra has longer climbs (and so do we in the
Cascades), but its all the same kind of stuff. The only
thing different about the Sierra are the cattle grates --
real and painted. It takes a while getting used to hitting
those at 50+ mph. But that has nothing to do with coping with
traffic.

Now imagine all this uphill, a cyclist crawling up the hill in
lane center, situation at 1:50 and the van coming right in the
curve - Smash.
You mean the van would have crossed the center line to pass the
bicyclist in a blind corner, as the motorcylist was coming down?


No, the van stays in its lane but blocks the motorcycle rider from
being able to veer into the opposite lane when he sees a lane
center cyclist (emergency maneuver).


He's descending incrementally faster than I am and will see me for a
number of turns before he catches. That section with the van is about
a 12% grade and off camber turn, so he'd have to slow somewhat and
would see me going through the turn -- unless I'm just standing
there. Plus, where else could I be? You don't creep along the right
side of the road when you're descending. You're in the middle of the
road, trying not to cross the center line. My issue in that turn
would be avoiding the van.


If you are going full bore the lane is ok. I often don't because a MTB
is more like a tank and I frequently have to slow down for a turn-off
into the wild.


Going up is where you might run in to trouble, but I never have --
not on that road.


I generally have to first muscle up all the roads I want to ride back down.


Cars speed up and down a lot of the routes through
the West Hills because they are arterials between downtown and the
suburbs. I haven't been hit, but I've stopped riding one of these
roads because it has turned into a miserable, shoulderless raceway --
and it wasn't a route that I particularly liked anyway.

This is a commute route for some, and if I want to throw in a few
miles before work, I'll go this way. Note that cars pass at the top
until you get up to speed, which can be 50+ mph, assuming no
car-clog. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2FB_qLvy0M


The two riders seen in this video do not take the lane except for very
few moments and in the village at the end where there's the occaionla
parked car. Also, there is very little traffic.


I always take the lane except on the little climb (cut from the video
-- before the tunnels), where I stay to the right. At rush hour,
that road is like a conga line. It's the lovely result of urban
planning. Lots of houses and no roads -- except the old, congested
highway that everyone avoids by ratting out through the hills.


I'd probably avoid that road at rush hour but as you said in your area
it may not be possible. I was lucky out here, for many of my regular
routes I found bush "roads". Most are not passable on a road bike
though, got to use a MTB.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/