OT - Why not 'Buy American'?

On Feb 3, 4:45*pm, Andre Jute wrote:
But if you're stupid enough to [...}
You just can opened you mouth without trying to sound like
a complete asshole, eh?

However, I wrote about soldiers in uniform, fighting pitched battles,
conducting invasions, and you simply trashed all that and perverted my
conclusion to something else altogether, an insurrection in wartime
Poland. *And then you have the ****ing cheek, having misrepresented
what I said, to whine that I offended your feelings because of your
dead relatives.
First of all - it would be easy to say "F#CK YOU TOO".
But I think we should try to retain some civility here even in the
face
obviously-assholic trolls like you. If you had bothered to reply to
the
original message that simply quoted some casualty stats without
NARROWING the subject to idea that "mothers and Eisenhower" prevented
large US casualties in WWII and suggesting that high casualty rate is
equivalent to idiocy and then going ballistic that somebody mentions
dead relatives. It is not for you to decides who dies like an idiot
fighting for their country, you pompous asshole.

On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 13:23:57 -0600, A Muzi
wrote:

Mike wrote:

All people in the western hemisphere are not Americans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere


We are aware of the problem, thank you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww

LOL - even when I'd seen it before.


--

On Feb 3, 4:45*pm, Andre Jute wrote:
But if you're stupid enough to insist that I
speak to the problem of Poland, let it be on your head. Before the
war, the Polish government were criminally negligent. When the war
started the Poles were still fighting in the eighteenth century, never
mind the 19th or the 20th. The last charge of the pre-Soviet Polish
Army was cavalry against tanks. Look it up if you don't believe me.
That wasn't elan, that was stupidity.

Ok, jerk - I looked it up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krojanty
(see quote below)
Thanks for repeating verbatim from Soviet propaganda.

Why don't you look up Polish aerospace industry in 1939:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL
instead of talking garbage about 18th century warfare.

Or perhaps look up Squadron 303:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squadron_303
which saved your pompous limey arse in Battle of Britain:
RAF No. 303 "Koúciuszko" Polish Fighter Squadron was the highest-
scoring allied unit in the Battle of Britain.

---------------------------------------------
Aftermath and the myth (cavalry charge on tanks)

The Polish cavalry charge stopped the German pursuit for the day, and
the units of Czersk Operational Group were able to withdraw southwards
unopposed. Also, it took the enemy several hours to reorganise and
continue the advance. On September 2, 1939, the 18th Pomeranian Uhlans
Regiment was decorated by Gen. Grzmot-Skotnicki, the commander of the
Operational Group, with his own Virtuti Militari medal for valour
shown in this combat.

The same day, German war correspondents were brought to the
battlefield, together with two journalists from Italy. They were shown
the corpses of Polish cavalrymen and their horses, as well as German
tanks that had arrived at the place after the battle. One of the
Italian correspondents, Indro Montanelli, sent home an article, in
which he described the bravery and heroism of Polish soldiers, who
charged German tanks with sabres and lances. Although such a charge
did not happen and there were no tanks used during the combat, the
myth was used by German propaganda during the war. German propaganda
magazine Die Wehrmacht reported on 13 September that the Poles had
gravely underestimated German weapons, as Polish propaganda had
suggested that German armored vehicles were only covered with sheet
metal, leading to a grotesque attack. After the end of World War II it
was still used by Soviet propaganda as an example of stupidity of pre-
war Polish commanders, who allegedly did not prepare their country for
the war and instead wasted the blood of their soldiers.

"Sure,Not" wrote in message
...
On Feb 3, 12:32 am, terryc wrote:
On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 17:11:16 -0800, Big Jim wrote:
Because I am an American. God blessed our nation over others.

This is the country that has never wone a war? Starting with their own war
of independence when the french had to pull their arse out of the
fire and show them how to fight?

How about WWII?

I'd have to give that to the Russians. With a little help from its then
allies.

Andre Jute wrote:
[....]
When the war
started the Poles were still fighting in the eighteenth century, never
mind the 19th or the 20th.

Dear Andre,

do you think that two decades were enough tu us, Poles to cath up the
rest of free world in everything? After almost one and a half century of
anexation and slavery?

The last charge of the pre-Soviet Polish
Army was cavalry against tanks.

Please do not repeat unthruths fabricated by Nazis propaganda.

Look it up if you don't believe me.
That wasn't elan, that was stupidity.

No it was not. Do you think it was stupid to save Europe in 1920?

The survivors ended up in Katyn
because of Russian treachery, a simple class cleansing (all the
officers, all the intellectuals, all the professionals -- same thing
from Stalin to Pol Pot), nothing to do with warfare.

The truth about Polish is here in the 'Eastern Archives' (unfotunately
printed publications are in polish only):
http://tinyurl.com/cksb2r

Now, the Warsaw uprising was brave but belated and doomed from the
beginning; even so, John Paul II, who was there and in the fighting,
told me it was poorly organized and led.

If you were in Poland and especially in Warsaw during German occupation
then you could understand that Warsaw Uprising was the only way to us -
we did not have a choice.

[...]

PS. Please forgive my 'rusty english' I do not know enough words an my
grammar is poor.

--
PoZdR

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

"Don't try any other colors, red's the only one that works."

– Sheldon Brown, 1944-2008

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

Gee, and here I was all prepared to apologize for overreacting
yesterday. Now I don't think I'll bother. -- Andre Jute

On Feb 3, 11:12*pm, Woland99 wrote:
On Feb 3, 4:45*pm, Andre Jute wrote: But if you're stupid enough to [...}

You just can opened you mouth without trying to sound like
a complete asshole, eh?

However, I wrote about soldiers in uniform, fighting pitched battles,
conducting invasions, and you simply trashed all that and perverted my
conclusion to something else altogether, an insurrection in wartime
Poland. *And then you have the ****ing cheek, having misrepresented
what I said, to whine that I offended your feelings because of your
dead relatives.

First of all - it would be easy to say "F#CK YOU TOO".
But I think we should try to retain some civility here even in the
face
obviously-assholic trolls like you. If you had bothered to reply to
the
original message that simply quoted some casualty stats without
NARROWING the subject to idea that "mothers and Eisenhower" prevented
large US casualties in WWII and suggesting that high casualty rate is
equivalent to idiocy and then going ballistic that somebody mentions
dead relatives. It is not for you to decides who dies like an idiot
fighting for their country, you pompous asshole.

On Feb 4, 12:15*am, Woland99 wrote:
On Feb 3, 4:45*pm, Andre Jute wrote:

But if you're stupid enough to insist that I
speak to the problem of Poland, let it be on your head. Before the
war, the Polish government were criminally negligent. When the war
started the Poles were still fighting in the eighteenth century, never
mind the 19th or the 20th. The last charge of the pre-Soviet Polish
Army was cavalry against tanks. Look it up if you don't believe me.
That wasn't elan, that was stupidity.

Ok, jerk - I looked it up:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krojanty
(see quote below)

You want to correspond with me, Woe, you have to do better than
Wikipedia, where people like you can write in their own version of
"history".

Thanks for repeating verbatim from Soviet propaganda.

Oh, I'm quite capable of making up my own. But in this case the truth
is so farcical and tragic, even I cannot invent anything more
dramatic.

Why don't you look up Polish aerospace industry in 1939:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL
instead of talking garbage about 18th century warfare.

You want to correspond with me, Woe, you have to do better than
Wikipedia, where people like you can write in their own version of
"history".

Or perhaps look up Squadron 303:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squadron_303
which saved your pompous limey arse in Battle of Britain:
RAF No. 303 "Koúciuszko" Polish Fighter Squadron was the highest-
scoring allied unit in the Battle of Britain.

I'm not British. My branch of my family hasn't even been Kentish for
well over a millennium, and at that they were never even "English";
see the Encyclopedia Brittanica (13th edition, 1911, is superb) or any
other reliable reference for the Angles, the Saxons and the Jutes.

As for the rest of this tirade of yours, I got the bravery of those
Polish pilots impressed on me as a boy by the founder of the RFC,
later called the RAF, and as a young man by people who'd flown with
them in the war; I even for a while worked only a couple of offices
away from a German who in the war fought against them. As I said
before, you want to correspond with me, Woe, you have to do better
than Wikipedia, where people like you can write in their own version
of "history".


---------------------------------------------
Aftermath and the myth (cavalry charge on tanks)

The Polish cavalry charge

Forgive me, but why does a "modern" army have cavalry for any but
ceremonial purposes? Why does it actually "charge" in war? You're
making my points for me every time you open your mouth, Woe.

stopped the German pursuit for the day, and
the units of Czersk Operational Group were able to withdraw southwards
unopposed. Also, it took the enemy several hours to reorganise and
continue the advance. On September 2, 1939, the 18th Pomeranian Uhlans
Regiment was decorated by Gen. Grzmot-Skotnicki, the commander of the
Operational Group, with his own Virtuti Militari medal for valour
shown in this combat.

You see, this is what I mean: opera buffo. The greatest war the planet
has ever known is one day old and the general is declaring it
gloriously won and striking his *own* medals to give to the troops.
That doesn't mean they weren't all terrifically brave. The questiion
is to what end were they terrifically brave.

The same day, German war correspondents were brought to the
battlefield, together with two journalists from Italy. They were shown
the corpses of Polish cavalrymen and their horses, as well as German
tanks that had arrived at the place after the battle. One of the
Italian correspondents, Indro Montanelli, sent home an article, in
which he described the bravery and heroism of Polish soldiers, who
charged German tanks with sabres and lances. Although such a charge
did not happen and there were no tanks used during the combat, the
myth was used by German propaganda during the war. German propaganda
magazine Die Wehrmacht reported on 13 September that the Poles had
gravely underestimated German weapons, as Polish propaganda had
suggested that German armored vehicles were only covered with sheet
metal, leading to a grotesque attack. After the end of World War II it
was still used by Soviet propaganda as an example of stupidity of pre-
war Polish commanders, who allegedly did not prepare their country for
the war and instead wasted the blood of their soldiers.

The above quote is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krojanty
As I keep saying, you want to correspond with me, Woe, you have to do
better than Wikipedia, where people like you can write in their own
version of "history".

You're far too emotionally overwrought to be a reliable witness.

Andre Jute
History is what happened, not what partisans wish happened

On Feb 4, 6:42*am, Coaster wrote:
Andre Jute wrote:

[....]

When the war
started the Poles were still fighting in the eighteenth century, never
mind the 19th or the 20th.

Dear Andre,

do you think that two decades were enough tu us, Poles to cath up the
rest of free world in everything? After almost one and a half century of
anexation and slavery?

No, I don't; nobody sensible would. I agree with you.

The last charge of the pre-Soviet Polish
Army was cavalry against tanks.

Please do not repeat unthruths fabricated by Nazis propaganda.

Do you deny that the last cavalry charge in history was by the Polish
cavalry?

Look it up if you don't believe me.
That wasn't elan, that was stupidity.

No it was not. Do you think it was stupid to save Europe in 1920?

I was talking about 1939.

The survivors ended up in Katyn
because of Russian treachery, a simple class cleansing (all the
officers, all the intellectuals, all the professionals -- same thing
from Stalin to Pol Pot), nothing to do with warfare.

The truth about Polish is here in the 'Eastern Archives' (unfotunately
printed publications are in polish only):http://tinyurl.com/cksb2r

Despite Russian attempts to blame the Germans for the Katyn Massacre,
it is now generally accepted that the Russians did it. It doesn't
matter who did it, it was a barbaric act. But for the Russians it was
a routine matter: they removed the intellectual leadership of their
own nation repeatedly, and they clearly hoped to take over Poland
permanently, and that would be easier if the intellectual and social
leadership was eliminated.

Now, the Warsaw uprising was brave but belated and doomed from the
beginning; even so, John Paul II, who was there and in the fighting,
told me it was poorly organized and led.

If you were in Poland and especially in Warsaw during German occupation
then you could understand that Warsaw Uprising was the only way to us -
we did not have a choice.

I understand that. And it is invidious to judge by the standards of a
calm tutorial room what people under tremendous pressure and constant
threat of their lives did. That troll Woland provoked me by distorting
the thrust of my argument (which was about the supply lines of
regular, uniformed soldiers fighting regular wars, not about ad hoc
affairs like insurrections which by definition isn't about extended
supply lines) through selective snipping. But do you understand that,
objectively dissected, the Warsaw rising was conducted with more
passion than skill? (That the cost very likely would have been the
same even if the rising was conducted with the very methods put
forward by those calmly objective critics doesn't seem to be mentioned
so often...) A good model of an armed uprising is the activities of
the Communist reseaux in France as the Germans were driven out after D-
day. And yeah, sure, I know, they had four years to prepare and their
planning and coordination was done for them in calm staff offices
London; I'm just explaining that history offers a choice of
alternatives.

[...]

PS. Please forgive my 'rusty english' I do not know enough words an my
grammar is poor.

Seems to me you're doing just fine in getting your meaning across,
which is all that is required.

--
PoZdR

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

"Don't try any other colors, red's the only one that works."

– Sheldon Brown, 1944-2008

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

Ha! Without having known him except through reading his site and
posts, I miss Sheldon.

Andre Jute
Just the fax, mam, you can bring tea later

On Feb 4, 7:32*am, Andre Jute wrote:
Ok, jerk - I looked it up:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krojanty
(see quote below)

You want to correspond with me, Woe, you have to do better than
Wikipedia, where people like you can write in their own version of
"history".

Actually I don't - you are a troll - you start discussions to
preach your BS and insult people. Why don't you tell me few
Polish I have not heard yet? Or ask me why "you people killed
all those Jews"? Or some other bullsh#t like that?
Yes - you are right - there is widespread conspiracy of Poles
trying to rewrite history of WWII. We actually started Wikipedia
to that end. Or rather we paid Koreans to do that because Poles
are not smart enough to use computers.
Polish cavalry was hell-bent on committing suicide by attacking
tanks - you see, they lived in some backward country, they never
seen tanks so they attacked then the only way they knew how -
screamed "Hurrah" and started poking them with their sabres.
Perhaps they wanted to repeat to charge of Somosierra (another
Polish lie of course).
As for the RAF 303 - it is Wikipedia lies too - there was never
such squadron, Polish pilots did not have highest kill ratio
among RAF squadrons - in fact there was no such thing s "Polish
pilots" simply because primitive people from backward coutry
like Poland would not know how to fly a plane.
Oh and those Polish mathematicians that cracked Enigma -
it is Wikipedia lies too.
Same goes for Poles that worked on Manhattan Project.
Happy now? You won you little troll game so go away to
your troll hole or wherever the f#ck you crawl out from
and don't talk to me again.

On Feb 4, 4:27*pm, Woland99 wrote:
On Feb 4, 7:32*am, Andre Jute wrote:

Ok, jerk - I looked it up:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krojanty
(see quote below)

Nope, I didn't write that either. Woland wrote it. I wouldn't in a
million years commit the solecism of giving the wretchedly inaccurate
Wikipedia as a reference. I leave that to clowns like Woe and Krygo.

You want to correspond with me, Woe, you have to do better than
Wikipedia, where people like you can write in their own version of
"history".

Yup, that sounds like me.

Actually I don't - you are a troll - you start discussions to
preach your BS and insult people.

You're not making sense, Woe. If you didn't want to correspond with
me, why did you write to me?

Why don't you tell me few
Polish I have not heard yet?

You're not making sense, Woe. Tell you a "few Polish" what? If you
mean jokes, I don't do Polish jokes, I do Kerryman jokes. The Kerrymen
are right next door to me, and can come here and complain in person.
Have you heard the one about the Kerryman who was so drunk that
cycling home he fell into a pothole in the road and drowned? They
fished his bicycle out the next day and there was only a little rust
on it.

Or ask me why "you people killed
all those Jews"?

Did you really? I were you, I wouldn't bandy it about. The Israeli
take that sort of thing seriously, or at least did the last time I was
there.

Or some other bullsh#t like that?

You're not making sense, Woe. You're the one spreading bull**** like
it was free manure day on the farm.

Yes - you are right - there is widespread conspiracy of Poles
trying to rewrite history of WWII.

It would have been a kindness to tell me earlier, before I took Polish
history more seriously than you apparently do.

We actually started Wikipedia
to that end.

Figures. I've never trusted Wikipedia since the day I discovered 11
errors on a single page.

Or rather we paid Koreans to do that because Poles
are not smart enough to use computers.

Huh? You're not making sense, Woe. I know for a fact from personal
experience that many Poles are superior chess players, and there are
some renowned Polish codebreakers too, a high branch of mathematics.
Are you sure you're a Pole?

Polish cavalry was hell-bent on committing suicide by attacking
tanks - you see, they lived in some backward country, they never
seen tanks so they attacked then the only way they knew how -
screamed "Hurrah" and started poking them with their sabres.

Now you're spouting Soviet propaganda, Woe. And it isn't even original
Soviet propalies, it originated in Dr Goebbels's Ministry of Lies. You
should be ashamed of yourself, Woe.

Perhaps they wanted to repeat to charge of Somosierra (another
Polish lie of course).

Well, if you say so, Woe. I rather tended to believe the many
reputable historians who-- Oh, never mind, you're a Pole and you say
different, and you get antsy when people gainsay you, so let's just
say I believe you.

As for the RAF 303 - it is Wikipedia lies too - there was never
such squadron, Polish pilots did not have highest kill ratio
among RAF squadrons - in fact there was no such thing s "Polish
pilots" simply because primitive people from backward coutry
like Poland would not know how to fly a plane.

Is that right? I wonder if the Polish mechanic serving in the South
African Air Force who patiently helped us rebuild our Tiger Moth and
taught us to fly it was a figment of my imagination.

Oh and those Polish mathematicians that cracked Enigma -
it is Wikipedia lies too.

Hey, now we're in agreement. I said there were outstanding Polish
codebreakers! And you don't even have to go to Wikilies for it, you
can just scroll up right here in RBT.

Same goes for Poles that worked on Manhattan Project.

Them too.

Happy now? You won you little troll game so go away to
your troll hole or wherever the f#ck you crawl out from
and don't talk to me again.

No, you idiot, you misrepresented what I said on another subject to
make it fit whatever troll you wanted to run on the Poles. You chose
the wrong guy to play such dumb kindergarten games with. Among other
things, our exchange shows that you're prejudiced against Poles (as
some Jews are prejudiced against Israelis). You should be ashamed of
yourself, Woe.

***

Next time, quote me in full, don't misrepresent what I said, and
you'll have no trouble with me. If you don't like what I say, don't
read it; use your killfile.

Andre Jute
Charmin' until the smiling stops