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RIP John Forester



 
 
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  #31  
Old April 25th 20, 08:31 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 6,016
Default RIP John Forester

On 2020-04-24 18:08, sms wrote:
On 4/24/2020 2:20 PM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Main thing is, she got in. Must have been a remarkable woman.


I met her several times but did not know her well.

https://sf.streetsblog.org/2012/11/08/remembering-ellen-fletcher-palo-altos-pioneer-bicycle-advocate/


She accomplished far more for cyclists than John Forester.


Sure sounds like it.

Ellen might have been a victim of smog. I met several people who never
smoked and had no passive smoking exposure yet contracted lung cancer.
All had lived in or near large cities and were active runners or cyclists.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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  #32  
Old April 25th 20, 09:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default RIP John Forester

On 4/25/2020 2:31 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2020-04-24 18:08, sms wrote:
On 4/24/2020 2:20 PM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Main thing is, she got in. Must have been a remarkable
woman.


I met her several times but did not know her well.

https://sf.streetsblog.org/2012/11/08/remembering-ellen-fletcher-palo-altos-pioneer-bicycle-advocate/



She accomplished far more for cyclists than John Forester.


Sure sounds like it.

Ellen might have been a victim of smog. I met several people
who never smoked and had no passive smoking exposure yet
contracted lung cancer. All had lived in or near large
cities and were active runners or cyclists.


The world is a very large place with all sorts of anomalies
some of which we do not fully understand:

http://www.rfi.fr/en/science-and-tec...ainst-covid-19

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #33  
Old April 25th 20, 09:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default RIP John Forester

On 4/25/2020 3:23 PM, sms wrote:

What is unfortunate when someone fabricates stories to support his
agenda. Especially annoying is the one about San Francisco. One person
filed a lawsuit against the building of bicycle infrastructure in San
Francisco. It did prevent a lot of bicycle infrastructure from being
constructed.


From
"During the past four years, the number of cyclists on San Francisco
streets has increased by more than 40 percent, yet the city has been
prevented from installing amenities for cyclists thanks to the legal
efforts of a local gadfly."

I'd have rephrased that. The number increased by more than 40 percent
_despite_ the city being prevented from installing amenities for cyclists.

The amenities were not necessary for the increase. It happened anyway.

But a lot of bicycle infrastructure, that was not covered by that
lawsuit, continued to be constructed during the time the injunction was
in place and it correlated with a large increase in cycling. Of course
correlation is not causation, but in this case there was nothing else
that happened that could possibly have accounted for the large increase.


If your viewpoint is sufficiently thick blinders, you could say nothing
else could possibly have accounted for the large increase.

Alternately, you could notice that at that time, bicycling was going
through a massive "Trendy!!" phase with city hipsters. Despite the lack
of new segregated infrastructure, the hipsters decided bikes were cool.

The same thing happened in Pittsburgh. Advocates there say "Look, we
have lots of bike lanes! And bike mode share is up!" But when you
actually look at the data, the jump in bike mode share happened _before_
the jump in bike lane miles. It's been largely flat since then.

Eventually the plaintiff lost, the infrastructure that had been on hold
began to be constructed, and cycling numbers increased even more.


Look at the bar chart on page 3 of the "San Francisco Mobility Trends
Report"
at
https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/...eport_2018.pdf

Bike trips dropped from 126,000 in 2015 to 95,000 in 2017. Roughly a 25%
decrease. Why? Bikes are no longer quite as trendy.

Mr. Scharf's world view is absolutely uninfluenced by data.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #34  
Old April 25th 20, 10:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default RIP John Forester

On 4/25/2020 4:47 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Sorry, I left out the link.


From https://www.sfweekly.com/news/ironic...ycling-in-s-f/


"During the past four years, the number of cyclists on San Francisco
streets has increased by more than 40 percent, yet the city has been
prevented from installing amenities for cyclists thanks to the legal
efforts of a local gadfly."


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #35  
Old April 25th 20, 11:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default RIP John Forester

On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 07:13:03 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/24/2020 6:03 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

The argument that if we build bike paths more people will ride bikes
seems, well, similar to the theory that "if we build lower bridges
more people will bungee jump".


That's probably the worst analogy I've ever seen.

As an aside, building bike paths costs the taxpayer money while
enforcing existing laws should not add to the existing tax burden.


OMG, do you have any idea how much each additional police officer or
sheriff's deputy costs a city? Enforcing existing laws is incredibly
expensive, and it's a recurring cost. It's a tremendous tax burden.


Well, Good Lord!

VOTE for SMS and get rid of those expensive police and build bicycle
lanes to save money!
--
cheers,

John B.

  #36  
Old April 26th 20, 10:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 884
Default RIP John Forester

On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 3:22:17 PM UTC-7, James wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton.../#5bc19d171cc3

--
JS


John Forester had an understanding of how drivers react. Multiple times I have had people make a right turn directly in front of me because they haven't a clue that the bike lane has right-of-way over someone making a right turn. Just an hour ago as I was returning from a 35 mile ride with 1600 feet of climbing ahead of me I saw a father leading his daughter. He was perhaps 30 feet ahead of her and as he crossed an intersection some POS in an SUV cut directly in front of his daughter as if she wasn't even there. Do you suppose she is going to continue riding if this sort of thing goes unpunished with the F-ing driver not even knowing that she did something wrong?
  #37  
Old April 26th 20, 10:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 884
Default RIP John Forester

On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 3:45:42 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/23/2020 3:22 PM, James wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton.../#5bc19d171cc3


Yeah, just saw that report earlier today. I had no idea that he was
related to C.S. Forester.

I received a copy of his manuscript before Effective Cycling was
published, sometime in the early 1980's. Reading it was like Richard
Feynman when he was on the California textbook selection committee and
his wife would hear him scream whenever he encountered something really
stupid in a book (the story is in his book, "Surely You're Joking Mr.
Feynman").

He had his opinions, but very little was fact-based. Loved the line in
that Forbes story "Despite never having ridden on any cycleways in the
Netherlands, Forester was heavily critical of Dutch cycleways, stating
them to be dangerous for cyclists." That was the essence of his
personality, pontificate on things that you have absolutely no knowledge
about.

Fortunately few states or municipalities paid any attention to his
rantings, including in Palo Alto. Ellen Fletcher, for whom Palo Alto's
Bryant Street Bike Boulevard is named, was far more effective in
promoting widespread bicycling in Palo Alto
https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2012/11/08/palo-altos-bicycle-pioneer-ellen-fletcher-dies.

"Despite the copious evidence that the separation of transport modes can
and does improve safety for cyclists, and encourages more people to
cycle, Forester remained adamant that providing cycleways was a
retrograde step for the health of cycling."


Tell us all how many cycleways you rode on in the Netherlands? What I saw was the same problems as here - drivers with the idea that since they had more power and paid more for their mode of transportation that they had right of way and drive with EXTREME danger around riders.
  #38  
Old April 26th 20, 10:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
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Posts: 824
Default RIP John Forester

On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 11:19:39 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 3:45:42 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/23/2020 3:22 PM, James wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton.../#5bc19d171cc3


Yeah, just saw that report earlier today. I had no idea that he was
related to C.S. Forester.

I received a copy of his manuscript before Effective Cycling was
published, sometime in the early 1980's. Reading it was like Richard
Feynman when he was on the California textbook selection committee and
his wife would hear him scream whenever he encountered something really
stupid in a book (the story is in his book, "Surely You're Joking Mr.
Feynman").

He had his opinions, but very little was fact-based. Loved the line in
that Forbes story "Despite never having ridden on any cycleways in the
Netherlands, Forester was heavily critical of Dutch cycleways, stating
them to be dangerous for cyclists." That was the essence of his
personality, pontificate on things that you have absolutely no knowledge
about.

Fortunately few states or municipalities paid any attention to his
rantings, including in Palo Alto. Ellen Fletcher, for whom Palo Alto's
Bryant Street Bike Boulevard is named, was far more effective in
promoting widespread bicycling in Palo Alto
https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2012/11/08/palo-altos-bicycle-pioneer-ellen-fletcher-dies.

"Despite the copious evidence that the separation of transport modes can
and does improve safety for cyclists, and encourages more people to
cycle, Forester remained adamant that providing cycleways was a
retrograde step for the health of cycling."


Tell us all how many cycleways you rode on in the Netherlands? What I saw was the same problems as here - drivers with the idea that since they had more power and paid more for their mode of transportation that they had right of way and drive with EXTREME danger around riders.


Huh?? Almost every car driver here also ride bicycles and have kids that ride bicycles. Why would they drive around around riders with extreme danger? This is extremely rare.

Lou
  #39  
Old April 27th 20, 12:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,477
Default RIP John Forester

On 4/25/2020 3:48 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 07:13:03 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/24/2020 6:03 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

The argument that if we build bike paths more people will ride bikes
seems, well, similar to the theory that "if we build lower bridges
more people will bungee jump".


That's probably the worst analogy I've ever seen.

As an aside, building bike paths costs the taxpayer money while
enforcing existing laws should not add to the existing tax burden.


OMG, do you have any idea how much each additional police officer or
sheriff's deputy costs a city? Enforcing existing laws is incredibly
expensive, and it's a recurring cost. It's a tremendous tax burden.


Well, Good Lord!

VOTE for SMS and get rid of those expensive police and build bicycle
lanes to save money!


Thanks. We're not getting rid of any deputies but we are building
bicycle infrastructure.
  #40  
Old April 27th 20, 01:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
Default RIP John Forester

On Sunday, 26 April 2020 17:52:54 UTC-4, wrote:
On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 11:19:39 PM UTC+2, wrote:
On Thursday, April 23, 2020 at 3:45:42 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 4/23/2020 3:22 PM, James wrote:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton.../#5bc19d171cc3

Yeah, just saw that report earlier today. I had no idea that he was
related to C.S. Forester.

I received a copy of his manuscript before Effective Cycling was
published, sometime in the early 1980's. Reading it was like Richard
Feynman when he was on the California textbook selection committee and
his wife would hear him scream whenever he encountered something really
stupid in a book (the story is in his book, "Surely You're Joking Mr.
Feynman").

He had his opinions, but very little was fact-based. Loved the line in
that Forbes story "Despite never having ridden on any cycleways in the
Netherlands, Forester was heavily critical of Dutch cycleways, stating
them to be dangerous for cyclists." That was the essence of his
personality, pontificate on things that you have absolutely no knowledge
about.

Fortunately few states or municipalities paid any attention to his
rantings, including in Palo Alto. Ellen Fletcher, for whom Palo Alto's
Bryant Street Bike Boulevard is named, was far more effective in
promoting widespread bicycling in Palo Alto
https://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/2012/11/08/palo-altos-bicycle-pioneer-ellen-fletcher-dies.

"Despite the copious evidence that the separation of transport modes can
and does improve safety for cyclists, and encourages more people to
cycle, Forester remained adamant that providing cycleways was a
retrograde step for the health of cycling."


Tell us all how many cycleways you rode on in the Netherlands? What I saw was the same problems as here - drivers with the idea that since they had more power and paid more for their mode of transportation that they had right of way and drive with EXTREME danger around riders.


Huh?? Almost every car driver here also ride bicycles and have kids that ride bicycles. Why would they drive around around riders with extreme danger? This is extremely rare.

Lou


I take 99% of what Tom says with a grain of salt as he's so often proven to be in error.

My understanding is that in the Netherlands it's the driver who must prove the bicyclist was at fault if a car or other motor vehicle hits one.

Cheers
 




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