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"Divisive Issue"



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 22nd 07, 01:26 AM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Mike Vandeman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,798
Default "Divisive Issue"

February 21, 2007

Nature Conservancy

"Divisive Issue" (Winter 2006 Issue, p.6)

To the Editor:

Times change. We learn new things, and old ideas become obsolete. It's
inevitable. For example, we can no longer safely assume that water
from mountain streams is safe to drink. As Mark Gross stated so
eloquently, exploiting wildlife and wildlife habitat, for pleasuring
humans, is fast becoming obsolete (although dropping support for
Nature Conservancy seems counter-productive to me). The
rationalizations for such exploitation are transparently just that.
Aldo Leopold is a good example of discarding obsolete notions (the
killing of wolves) when they become clearly untenable.

This not to say that denigration of the "exploiters" is okay. I can't
really criticize 19th century Americans for not anticipating modern
conservation biology. And I don't think that difference of opinion
necessarily means we can't get along and work together. There will
probably always be compromises "on the ground".

But I don't see any reason to compromise on telling the truth! Yes, we
are animals somewhat like other animals, but we are not a natural part
of any ecosystem. We are a species that is native to part of Africa,
and everywhere else a very late newcomer, i.e. an exotic species. Like
all exotic species, we have arguably no right to access, much less
exploit, local ecosystems, especially when those activities threaten
native species (except that, when it's convenient, we claim that
"might makes right").

There is no honest way in today's environment to rationalize hunting,
fishing, and "collecting" of native species, or non-sustainable
recreational activities like mountain biking.

Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande

References:

Ehrlich, Paul R. and Ehrlich, Anne H., Extinction: The Causes and
Consequences of the Disappearances of Species. New York: Random House,
1981.

Errington, Paul L., A Question of Values. Ames, Iowa: Iowa State
University Press, 1987.

Flannery, Tim, The Eternal Frontier -- An Ecological History of North
America and Its Peoples. New York: Grove Press, 2001.

Foreman, Dave, Confessions of an Eco-Warrior. New York: Harmony Books,
1991.

Knight, Richard L. and Kevin J. Gutzwiller, eds. Wildlife and
Recreationists. Covelo, California: Island Press, 1995.

Louv, Richard, Last Child in the Woods -- Saving Our Children from
Nature-Deficit Disorder. Chapel Hill, N.C.: Algonquin Books of Chapel
Hill, 2005.

Noss, Reed F. and Allen Y. Cooperrider, Saving Nature's Legacy:
Protecting and Restoring Biodiversity. Island Press, Covelo,
California, 1994.

Stone, Christopher D., Should Trees Have Standing? Toward Legal Rights
for Natural Objects. Los Altos, California: William Kaufmann, Inc.,
1973.

Vandeman, Michael J., http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande, especially
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/india3,
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/sc8,
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb4, and
http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7.

Ward, Peter Douglas, The End of Evolution: On Mass Extinctions and the
Preservation of Biodiversity. New York: Bantam Books, 1994.

"The Wildlands Project", Wild Earth. Richmond, Vermont: The Cenozoic
Society, 1994.

Wilson, Edward O., The Future of Life. New York: Alfred A. Knopf,
2002.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
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  #2  
Old February 23rd 07, 04:35 AM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
JSH
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6
Default "Divisive Issue"

Move to Africa or kill yourself.

On Feb 21, 7:26 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
But I don't c any reason to compromise on telling ̃ trũ! Yes, we
r animals somewhat like õr animals, but we r ¬ a natural part
ov any ecosystem. We r a species ̃at is native to part ov Africa,
& everywhere else a very late newcomer, i.e. an exotic species. Like
al exotic species, we hav arguably no ryt to access, much less
exploit, local ecosystems, especially wen ̃ose activities ̃reaten
native species (except ̃at, wen it's convenient, we claim ̃at
"might makes ryt").



  #3  
Old February 26th 07, 09:01 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Olebiker
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 166
Default "Divisive Issue"

On Feb 21, 7:26 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
But I don't see any reason to compromise on telling the truth! Yes, we
are animals somewhat like other animals, but we are not a natural part
of any ecosystem. We are a species that is native to part of Africa,
and everywhere else a very late newcomer, i.e. an exotic species. Like
all exotic species, we have arguably no right to access, much less
exploit, local ecosystems, especially when those activities threaten
native species (except that, when it's convenient, we claim that
"might makes right").


How would you define what is a "native" species in North America? Are
you saying that only species that emerged from the proverbial
primordial ooze in North America have any right to exist here?

Dick Durbin

  #4  
Old February 26th 07, 09:49 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
pmh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 89
Default "Divisive Issue"

On Feb 26, 3:01 pm, "Olebiker" wrote:
........

Dick Durbin


You are attempting rational discourse with an irrational being.

PH

  #5  
Old February 27th 07, 05:40 AM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Mike Vandeman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,798
Default "Divisive Issue"

On 26 Feb 2007 12:01:59 -0800, "Olebiker" wrote:

On Feb 21, 7:26 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
But I don't see any reason to compromise on telling the truth! Yes, we
are animals somewhat like other animals, but we are not a natural part
of any ecosystem. We are a species that is native to part of Africa,
and everywhere else a very late newcomer, i.e. an exotic species. Like
all exotic species, we have arguably no right to access, much less
exploit, local ecosystems, especially when those activities threaten
native species (except that, when it's convenient, we claim that
"might makes right").


How would you define what is a "native" species in North America? Are
you saying that only species that emerged from the proverbial
primordial ooze in North America have any right to exist here?

Dick Durbin


See http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb4. I define it as one that has
been around a million years. But no matter how you define it, humans
in North America are an invasive, exotic species.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
  #6  
Old February 27th 07, 01:42 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Olebiker
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 166
Default "Divisive Issue"

On Feb 26, 11:40 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:

Seehttp://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb4. I define it as one that has
been around a million years. But no matter how you define it, humans
in North America are an invasive, exotic species.


So, why should we accept your definition?

Animals move from one environment to another in search of more food
and/or better shelter. Wild animals naturally migrate and are not
considered invasive or exotic. Why would you consider the Paleo-
Indians who crossed the Bering Strait around 40,000 years ago any
different than other animals?


  #7  
Old February 27th 07, 05:03 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Mike Vandeman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,798
Default "Divisive Issue"

On 27 Feb 2007 04:42:18 -0800, "Olebiker" wrote:

On Feb 26, 11:40 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:

Seehttp://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb4. I define it as one that has
been around a million years. But no matter how you define it, humans
in North America are an invasive, exotic species.


So, why should we accept your definition?

Animals move from one environment to another in search of more food
and/or better shelter. Wild animals naturally migrate and are not
considered invasive or exotic.


Yes, they are. You don't become a native species the day you arrive!
It takes a long time for the natives to adapt to the newcomer. Biology
texts are silent on this issue, especially on the issue of humans as
an exotic invasive, because they don't want to tell the truth about
humans. It's doubtful that ANY species other than bacteria and viruses
can change fast enough to adapt to humans. The North American
megafauna obviously couldn't. They went extinct.

Why would you consider the Paleo-
Indians who crossed the Bering Strait around 40,000 years ago any
different than other animals?

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
  #8  
Old February 27th 07, 07:09 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Olebiker
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 166
Default "Divisive Issue"

On Feb 27, 11:03 am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
Yes, they are. You don't become a native species the day you arrive!
It takes a long time for the natives to adapt to the newcomer. Biology
texts are silent on this issue, especially on the issue of humans as
an exotic invasive, because they don't want to tell the truth about
humans. It's doubtful that ANY species other than bacteria and viruses
can change fast enough to adapt to humans. The North American
megafauna obviously couldn't. They went extinct.


If you truly believe this, why haven't you moved back to Olduvai
Gorge?

Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to
extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks
and clovis pointed spears.

  #9  
Old February 27th 07, 08:53 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
pmh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 89
Default "Divisive Issue"

On Feb 27, 1:09 pm, "Olebiker" wrote:


Those paleo-indians must have been some terrific hunters to bring to
extinction 135 species in maybe 400 years using only pointed sticks
and clovis pointed spears.


There is some evidence for paleo-indian activity as much as 30,000
years ago.

PH

  #10  
Old February 27th 07, 08:55 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
pmh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 89
Default "Divisive Issue"

On Feb 27, 11:03 am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
It's doubtful that ANY species other than bacteria and viruses
can change fast enough to adapt to humans.


Rats and cockroaches seem to have managed just fine.

PH

 




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