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John Forester Speaks



 
 
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  #41  
Old October 7th 19, 11:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 2,421
Default John Forester Speaks

On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 12:46:02 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 10/7/2019 10:50 AM, Lars Lehtonen wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Chalo wrote:
I don't want special bike-specific infrastructure. I want the cars gone, restricted to special motorsports facilities during limited hours and with extremely heavy taxation to help mitigate their pollution and noise.


I'm fine with an interim period where the cars stay, but with a 20mph


Here in the U.S., a universal 20 mph speed limit would never, ever be
accepted - not even by me. It would make it impossible to ever visit my
family members and most of my friends.

20 mph in residential and heavily used business and shopping areas could
make sense, though.

I would have said it could make sense any place there are more than a
few pedestrians or bicyclists, except that in most of the U.S. there are
very, very few pedestrians or bicyclists. Almost the entire country has
been built with the automobile in mind. That's very difficult to change.


Lets be rational and say that in the U.S. there will never be any real
change. Speed limits are not going to be lowered and no significant
bicycle only paths are going to be built. Oh yes, there will be lines
painted on roads and old, unused, railway right of ways renamed
"Bicycle Path" but will over passes or tunnels at intersections to
allow crossing the intersection on city streets without worrying about
stop lights and folks turning be built as they are for cars?

I remember, years ago in Los Angeles there was an attempt by the city
government to get a bond issue approved to built a public
transportation system and it was voted down two years in a row. "What
for a public transportation system? Just take the car."
--
cheers,

John B.

Ads
  #42  
Old October 8th 19, 02:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default John Forester Speaks

On 10/7/2019 3:59 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

Lets be rational and say that in the U.S. there will never be any real
change. Speed limits are not going to be lowered and no significant
bicycle only paths are going to be built. Oh yes, there will be lines
painted on roads and old, unused, railway right of ways renamed
"Bicycle Path" but will over passes or tunnels at intersections to
allow crossing the intersection on city streets without worrying about
stop lights and folks turning be built as they are for cars?


I guess we're spoiled in Silicon Valley, but we have built, and are
building more, infrastructure with tunnels and overpasses. The key is to
eliminate choke points and create connectivity where it has been poor.
One key thing is to not have bicycle routes that are on roads with
freeway entrances and exits.

A few weeks ago we had a City Council meeting where the only agenda item
was whether or not to build a short trail along a creek, opening the
gates, putting down hard-pack or asphalt, and adding some fencing. I had
130 residents sign up to speak on this agenda item and the meeting went
from 6:45 p.m. to 4:35 a.m.. The trail would be what we believe would
be a safer pedestrian and bicycle route to some schools and to our
library. We voted 5-0 to proceed. Those opposed to the trail have houses
that back up to the creek and did not want people walking and cycling
behind their houses. Their concerns about the loss of privacy were
understandable, but it's public land and the water district, who owns
the land, is encouraging more use of their land for trails.

We also are starting a community shuttle system trial later this month.
This is a response to continued cuts in our county's transit system
which has the lowest fare-recovery of any system in the world, and is
operated as a social service rather than as a way to support commuters
going from housing-rich areas to job-rich areas. The shuttle will go
around the city as well as to specific locations in neighboring cities
(medical centers and train stations). The shuttle is subsidized, though
the subsidy per ride is much less than the subsidy that the county
transit agency provides.

We are also putting in protected bike lanes, the first one just opened.
There was basically a realization that the only way to keep vehicles
from driving, parking, stopping, delivering, dropping off/picking up,
etc. in bike lanes was to have a physical barrier, lines and paint just
were not sufficient. Unfortunately, it took the death of high school
student riding to school to spur the city to do something. The latest
thing I saw was real estate agents putting their "Open House" signs in
bike lanes. This was the final straw for me. I had my City Manager
authorize overtime for our Code Enforcement department and on one
Saturday they collected 62 illegally placed "Open House" signs that were
blocking sidewalks, bike lanes, wheelchair ramps, etc..

I remember, years ago in Los Angeles there was an attempt by the city
government to get a bond issue approved to built a public
transportation system and it was voted down two years in a row. "What
for a public transportation system? Just take the car."


Los Angeles is all-in on expanding their transit system.
https://www.fastcompany.com/40490942/los-angeless-120-billion-bet-on-transit-innovation.

Transit is also the only possible solution to the housing issue in
California. You're not going to convince most middle class families to
live in rental housing forever, or to live in a high-rise condo once
they have kids. You have to give them a way to commute sufficiently fast
from areas with enough land for the type of housing they are going to
live in.

Unfortunately, in Silicon Valley, we have no organization that is
lobbying for cyclists. The "Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition" has been
co-opted by development and corporate interests and lobbies for more
money for highway construction, especially the conversion of HOV lanes
to "Express Lanes" where solo drivers can pay to use the HOV lane. A
token amount of money was provided for bicycle infrastructure and
transit in the last tax that was approved by voters.
  #43  
Old October 8th 19, 03:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default John Forester Speaks

On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 6:48:12 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/7/2019 3:59 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

Lets be rational and say that in the U.S. there will never be any real
change. Speed limits are not going to be lowered and no significant
bicycle only paths are going to be built. Oh yes, there will be lines
painted on roads and old, unused, railway right of ways renamed
"Bicycle Path" but will over passes or tunnels at intersections to
allow crossing the intersection on city streets without worrying about
stop lights and folks turning be built as they are for cars?


I guess we're spoiled in Silicon Valley, but we have built, and are
building more, infrastructure with tunnels and overpasses. The key is to
eliminate choke points and create connectivity where it has been poor.
One key thing is to not have bicycle routes that are on roads with
freeway entrances and exits.

A few weeks ago we had a City Council meeting where the only agenda item
was whether or not to build a short trail along a creek, opening the
gates, putting down hard-pack or asphalt, and adding some fencing. I had
130 residents sign up to speak on this agenda item and the meeting went
from 6:45 p.m. to 4:35 a.m.. The trail would be what we believe would
be a safer pedestrian and bicycle route to some schools and to our
library. We voted 5-0 to proceed. Those opposed to the trail have houses
that back up to the creek and did not want people walking and cycling
behind their houses. Their concerns about the loss of privacy were
understandable, but it's public land and the water district, who owns
the land, is encouraging more use of their land for trails.

We also are starting a community shuttle system trial later this month.
This is a response to continued cuts in our county's transit system
which has the lowest fare-recovery of any system in the world, and is
operated as a social service rather than as a way to support commuters
going from housing-rich areas to job-rich areas. The shuttle will go
around the city as well as to specific locations in neighboring cities
(medical centers and train stations). The shuttle is subsidized, though
the subsidy per ride is much less than the subsidy that the county
transit agency provides.

We are also putting in protected bike lanes, the first one just opened.
There was basically a realization that the only way to keep vehicles
from driving, parking, stopping, delivering, dropping off/picking up,
etc. in bike lanes was to have a physical barrier, lines and paint just
were not sufficient. Unfortunately, it took the death of high school
student riding to school to spur the city to do something. The latest
thing I saw was real estate agents putting their "Open House" signs in
bike lanes. This was the final straw for me. I had my City Manager
authorize overtime for our Code Enforcement department and on one
Saturday they collected 62 illegally placed "Open House" signs that were
blocking sidewalks, bike lanes, wheelchair ramps, etc..

I remember, years ago in Los Angeles there was an attempt by the city
government to get a bond issue approved to built a public
transportation system and it was voted down two years in a row. "What
for a public transportation system? Just take the car."


Los Angeles is all-in on expanding their transit system.
https://www.fastcompany.com/40490942/los-angeless-120-billion-bet-on-transit-innovation.

Transit is also the only possible solution to the housing issue in
California. You're not going to convince most middle class families to
live in rental housing forever, or to live in a high-rise condo once
they have kids. You have to give them a way to commute sufficiently fast
from areas with enough land for the type of housing they are going to
live in.

Unfortunately, in Silicon Valley, we have no organization that is
lobbying for cyclists. The "Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition" has been
co-opted by development and corporate interests and lobbies for more
money for highway construction, especially the conversion of HOV lanes
to "Express Lanes" where solo drivers can pay to use the HOV lane. A
token amount of money was provided for bicycle infrastructure and
transit in the last tax that was approved by voters.


Just a heads-up, don't put the sheltered facility and a bus or shuttle stop together. My favorite unnecessary hazard going to work is the sheltered bike lane where the bus whips around me to the left, I go into the facility to the right, the bus stops, and passengers launch into the bike lane in front of me -- crossing the bike lane without looking to get to the bus. At the stops where the bus pulls to the curb, I at least have a chance of getting around it. I frequently wonder what designers are thinking.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #44  
Old October 8th 19, 04:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 401
Default John Forester Speaks

On 08/10/2019 10:14 a.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 6:48:12 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/7/2019 3:59 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

Lets be rational and say that in the U.S. there will never be any real
change. Speed limits are not going to be lowered and no significant
bicycle only paths are going to be built. Oh yes, there will be lines
painted on roads and old, unused, railway right of ways renamed
"Bicycle Path" but will over passes or tunnels at intersections to
allow crossing the intersection on city streets without worrying about
stop lights and folks turning be built as they are for cars?


I guess we're spoiled in Silicon Valley, but we have built, and are
building more, infrastructure with tunnels and overpasses. The key is to
eliminate choke points and create connectivity where it has been poor.
One key thing is to not have bicycle routes that are on roads with
freeway entrances and exits.

A few weeks ago we had a City Council meeting where the only agenda item
was whether or not to build a short trail along a creek, opening the
gates, putting down hard-pack or asphalt, and adding some fencing. I had
130 residents sign up to speak on this agenda item and the meeting went
from 6:45 p.m. to 4:35 a.m.. The trail would be what we believe would
be a safer pedestrian and bicycle route to some schools and to our
library. We voted 5-0 to proceed. Those opposed to the trail have houses
that back up to the creek and did not want people walking and cycling
behind their houses. Their concerns about the loss of privacy were
understandable, but it's public land and the water district, who owns
the land, is encouraging more use of their land for trails.

We also are starting a community shuttle system trial later this month.
This is a response to continued cuts in our county's transit system
which has the lowest fare-recovery of any system in the world, and is
operated as a social service rather than as a way to support commuters
going from housing-rich areas to job-rich areas. The shuttle will go
around the city as well as to specific locations in neighboring cities
(medical centers and train stations). The shuttle is subsidized, though
the subsidy per ride is much less than the subsidy that the county
transit agency provides.

We are also putting in protected bike lanes, the first one just opened.
There was basically a realization that the only way to keep vehicles
from driving, parking, stopping, delivering, dropping off/picking up,
etc. in bike lanes was to have a physical barrier, lines and paint just
were not sufficient. Unfortunately, it took the death of high school
student riding to school to spur the city to do something. The latest
thing I saw was real estate agents putting their "Open House" signs in
bike lanes. This was the final straw for me. I had my City Manager
authorize overtime for our Code Enforcement department and on one
Saturday they collected 62 illegally placed "Open House" signs that were
blocking sidewalks, bike lanes, wheelchair ramps, etc..

I remember, years ago in Los Angeles there was an attempt by the city
government to get a bond issue approved to built a public
transportation system and it was voted down two years in a row. "What
for a public transportation system? Just take the car."


Los Angeles is all-in on expanding their transit system.
https://www.fastcompany.com/40490942/los-angeless-120-billion-bet-on-transit-innovation.

Transit is also the only possible solution to the housing issue in
California. You're not going to convince most middle class families to
live in rental housing forever, or to live in a high-rise condo once
they have kids. You have to give them a way to commute sufficiently fast
from areas with enough land for the type of housing they are going to
live in.

Unfortunately, in Silicon Valley, we have no organization that is
lobbying for cyclists. The "Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition" has been
co-opted by development and corporate interests and lobbies for more
money for highway construction, especially the conversion of HOV lanes
to "Express Lanes" where solo drivers can pay to use the HOV lane. A
token amount of money was provided for bicycle infrastructure and
transit in the last tax that was approved by voters.


Just a heads-up, don't put the sheltered facility and a bus or shuttle stop together. My favorite unnecessary hazard going to work is the sheltered bike lane where the bus whips around me to the left, I go into the facility to the right, the bus stops, and passengers launch into the bike lane in front of me -- crossing the bike lane without looking to get to the bus. At the stops where the bus pulls to the curb, I at least have a chance of getting around it. I frequently wonder what designers are thinking.

-- Jay Beattie.


I found my new least favorite idea for cycling facilities. My son moved
to a new place on the Plateau in Montreal and I drove him to carry some
stuff to the new place. So I park in a slot in a long line of cars.
This is a one way street with parking on both sides. There is a two
direction bike lane on the outside of my passenger door with bike
traffic coming toward me. When I'm alone, the only way I can see around
the SUVs etc. in front of me would be to pull out into the oncoming
bikes. And there are a lot of bikes.

At least when they're by my door zone I can use my mirror to look back
and can see around the car in front. This is ridiculous.
  #45  
Old October 8th 19, 04:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Lars Lehtonen[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default John Forester Speaks

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Frank Krygowski wrote:

Here in the U.S., a universal 20 mph speed limit would never, ever be
accepted - not even by me. It would make it impossible to ever visit my
family members and most of my friends.


Interstates excluded, of course.

- ---
Lars Lehtonen
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  #46  
Old October 8th 19, 05:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default John Forester Speaks

On 10/8/2019 7:14 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

Just a heads-up, don't put the sheltered facility and a bus or shuttle stop together. My favorite unnecessary hazard going to work is the sheltered bike lane where the bus whips around me to the left, I go into the facility to the right, the bus stops, and passengers launch into the bike lane in front of me -- crossing the bike lane without looking to get to the bus. At the stops where the bus pulls to the curb, I at least have a chance of getting around it. I frequently wonder what designers are thinking.


Well in my area there are lot more cyclists than bus riders, which I'm
sure is different than in Portland.

I know that this issue has been discussed. Is it better for the bus stop
to be by the curb and buses cross the bike lane, or is it better for the
protected bike lane to be next to the curb and have bus passengers cross
the bike lane?
  #47  
Old October 8th 19, 05:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Zen Cycle
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 194
Default John Forester Speaks

On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 10:46:13 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:

Second, I saw no evidence that 10% or even 1% of the motorists were
aggressive or inattentive. The biggest irritation I had with a motorist
was the one excessively careful one who refused to pass me for about
four blocks despite the lack of oncoming traffic.


This is my experience as well. It's a few times a week that someone is afraid to pass, most of the time when I'm riding to the right of the white line.. Annoying as hell. The last time I had any motorist anger directed at me was on a group ride a few months ago, but that wasn't a commute. We took the lane before a left hand turn, and a car (which was well behind us when we took the lane) came up behind us, blowing their horn and shouting obscenities. What made it really sad was that we weren't taking up any more space than a car making the same turn. The last time before that was during a commute to work maybe ten years ago. Bear in mind traffic is pretty heinous in the Boston area. My 20 mile commute by car is 35 minutes on a good day, but typically 45 minutes. My commute by bike (same roads) is 60 minutes.

http://inrix.com/blog/2019/02/scorecard-2018/


  #48  
Old October 8th 19, 05:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default John Forester Speaks

On 10/8/2019 11:51 AM, Lars Lehtonen wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Frank Krygowski wrote:

Here in the U.S., a universal 20 mph speed limit would never, ever be
accepted - not even by me. It would make it impossible to ever visit my
family members and most of my friends.


Interstates excluded, of course.


That doesn't fix the concept of "20 mph everywhere". Of the friends I
can visit only by driving, the two I see most often live 35 miles away.
The route to their houses uses only three miles of interstate. The rest
of the roads are minor highways or country roads with speed limits from
40 mph to 55 mph.

The route to my brother has roughly ten miles of interstate and 35 miles
of minor highways and country roads. And I have other examples.

Low speeds may be appropriate in dense surroundings, but certainly not
everywhere. To make that practical, you'd have to completely rebuild
America.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #49  
Old October 8th 19, 05:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default John Forester Speaks

On 10/8/2019 10:20 AM, Duane wrote:
On 08/10/2019 10:14 a.m., jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 6:48:12 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/7/2019 3:59 PM, John B. wrote:

snip

Lets be rational and say that in the U.S. there will
never be any real
change. Speed limits are not going to be lowered and no
significant
bicycle only paths are going to be built. Oh yes, there
will be lines
painted on roads and old, unused, railway right of ways
renamed
"Bicycle Path" but will over passes or tunnels at
intersections to
allow crossing the intersection on city streets without
worrying about
stop lights and folks turning be built as they are for
cars?

I guess we're spoiled in Silicon Valley, but we have
built, and are
building more, infrastructure with tunnels and
overpasses. The key is to
eliminate choke points and create connectivity where it
has been poor.
One key thing is to not have bicycle routes that are on
roads with
freeway entrances and exits.

A few weeks ago we had a City Council meeting where the
only agenda item
was whether or not to build a short trail along a creek,
opening the
gates, putting down hard-pack or asphalt, and adding some
fencing. I had
130 residents sign up to speak on this agenda item and
the meeting went
from 6:45 p.m. to 4:35 a.m.. The trail would be what we
believe would
be a safer pedestrian and bicycle route to some schools
and to our
library. We voted 5-0 to proceed. Those opposed to the
trail have houses
that back up to the creek and did not want people walking
and cycling
behind their houses. Their concerns about the loss of
privacy were
understandable, but it's public land and the water
district, who owns
the land, is encouraging more use of their land for trails.

We also are starting a community shuttle system trial
later this month.
This is a response to continued cuts in our county's
transit system
which has the lowest fare-recovery of any system in the
world, and is
operated as a social service rather than as a way to
support commuters
going from housing-rich areas to job-rich areas. The
shuttle will go
around the city as well as to specific locations in
neighboring cities
(medical centers and train stations). The shuttle is
subsidized, though
the subsidy per ride is much less than the subsidy that
the county
transit agency provides.

We are also putting in protected bike lanes, the first
one just opened.
There was basically a realization that the only way to
keep vehicles
from driving, parking, stopping, delivering, dropping
off/picking up,
etc. in bike lanes was to have a physical barrier, lines
and paint just
were not sufficient. Unfortunately, it took the death of
high school
student riding to school to spur the city to do
something. The latest
thing I saw was real estate agents putting their "Open
House" signs in
bike lanes. This was the final straw for me. I had my
City Manager
authorize overtime for our Code Enforcement department
and on one
Saturday they collected 62 illegally placed "Open House"
signs that were
blocking sidewalks, bike lanes, wheelchair ramps, etc..

I remember, years ago in Los Angeles there was an
attempt by the city
government to get a bond issue approved to built a public
transportation system and it was voted down two years in
a row. "What
for a public transportation system? Just take the car."

Los Angeles is all-in on expanding their transit system.
https://www.fastcompany.com/40490942/los-angeless-120-billion-bet-on-transit-innovation.


Transit is also the only possible solution to the housing
issue in
California. You're not going to convince most middle
class families to
live in rental housing forever, or to live in a high-rise
condo once
they have kids. You have to give them a way to commute
sufficiently fast
from areas with enough land for the type of housing they
are going to
live in.

Unfortunately, in Silicon Valley, we have no organization
that is
lobbying for cyclists. The "Silicon Valley Bicycle
Coalition" has been
co-opted by development and corporate interests and
lobbies for more
money for highway construction, especially the conversion
of HOV lanes
to "Express Lanes" where solo drivers can pay to use the
HOV lane. A
token amount of money was provided for bicycle
infrastructure and
transit in the last tax that was approved by voters.


Just a heads-up, don't put the sheltered facility and a
bus or shuttle stop together. My favorite unnecessary
hazard going to work is the sheltered bike lane where the
bus whips around me to the left, I go into the facility to
the right, the bus stops, and passengers launch into the
bike lane in front of me -- crossing the bike lane without
looking to get to the bus. At the stops where the bus
pulls to the curb, I at least have a chance of getting
around it. I frequently wonder what designers are thinking.

-- Jay Beattie.


I found my new least favorite idea for cycling facilities.
My son moved to a new place on the Plateau in Montreal and I
drove him to carry some stuff to the new place. So I park
in a slot in a long line of cars. This is a one way street
with parking on both sides. There is a two direction bike
lane on the outside of my passenger door with bike traffic
coming toward me. When I'm alone, the only way I can see
around the SUVs etc. in front of me would be to pull out
into the oncoming bikes. And there are a lot of bikes.

At least when they're by my door zone I can use my mirror to
look back and can see around the car in front. This is
ridiculous.



I just checked and it seems England has utterly run out of
bad ideas for kiddy paths:
http://wcc.crankfoot.xyz/facility-of.../March2019.htm

Hasn't been updated for 8 months. Maybe they can accept
your Canadian entry.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #50  
Old October 8th 19, 05:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default John Forester Speaks

On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 9:01:39 AM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 10/8/2019 7:14 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

Just a heads-up, don't put the sheltered facility and a bus or shuttle stop together. My favorite unnecessary hazard going to work is the sheltered bike lane where the bus whips around me to the left, I go into the facility to the right, the bus stops, and passengers launch into the bike lane in front of me -- crossing the bike lane without looking to get to the bus. At the stops where the bus pulls to the curb, I at least have a chance of getting around it. I frequently wonder what designers are thinking.


Well in my area there are lot more cyclists than bus riders, which I'm
sure is different than in Portland.

I know that this issue has been discussed. Is it better for the bus stop
to be by the curb and buses cross the bike lane, or is it better for the
protected bike lane to be next to the curb and have bus passengers cross
the bike lane?


Having pedestrians cross the bike lane is a problem. Another example: https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2774/4...9c178bc1f1.jpg The PSU cycle track is a scrum of unconscious students stepping off the curb into the bike lane, staring down at phones or walking to the bus -- and people walking over to get in their cars, which create the barrier. I much preferred the curb parking and door-zone-ish bike lane. You could get out of harm's way. The current facility is a dangerous chute. South waterfront is a two-way mess because of idiots on bikes intermixed with pedestrians. I preferred when it was a pot-holed old road through an abandoned shipyard, but alas, we needed to put more people in hives. https://odis.homeaway.com/odis/listi...607a8c.f10.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.
 




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