wheel aerodynamic advantage

Question:

Lately I've been riding by myself for about 50-60 flat miles on
weekends. I do long stretches where I try to keep it above 20mph.

I have a tribike and a road bike and use them interchangeably. Both
have conventional 19mm deep rims with 32 spokes.

If I got a wheels with 28 to 30 mm rims and 16 to 24 aero spokes,
will I feel a difference at speeds over 20mph?

Any advantages in speed over the more conventional 24mm wheels?

I am considering the neuvation m28 aeros. There are also a few other
wheels in the market with 30 mm rims and 24 aero apokes for less than
$200.

Opinions, advise?

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 09:38:27 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Question:

Lately I've been riding by myself for about 50-60 flat miles on
weekends. I do long stretches where I try to keep it above 20mph.

I have a tribike and a road bike and use them interchangeably. Both
have conventional 19mm deep rims with 32 spokes.

If I got a wheels with 28 to 30 mm rims and 16 to 24 aero spokes,
will I feel a difference at speeds over 20mph?

Any advantages in speed over the more conventional 24mm wheels?

I am considering the neuvation m28 aeros. There are also a few other
wheels in the market with 30 mm rims and 24 aero apokes for less than
$200.

Opinions, advise?

Dear Andre,

This page lets you try various wheels on various courses:
http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course
-------
461.80 standard 32-spoke box wheels
452.11 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)

That's about 2% faster, roughly an average of 19.8 mph versus 19.4
mph. The difference can be seen on a cyclocomputer, but probably not
felt by the rider.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 09:38:27 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Question:

Lately I've been riding by myself for about 50-60 flat miles on
weekends. I do long stretches where I try to keep it above 20mph.

I have a tribike and a road bike and use them interchangeably. Both
have conventional 19mm deep rims with 32 spokes.

If I got a wheels with 28 to 30 mm rims and 16 to 24 aero spokes,
will I feel a difference at speeds over 20mph?

Any advantages in speed over the more conventional 24mm wheels?

I am considering the neuvation m28 aeros. There are also a few other
wheels in the market with 30 mm rims and 24 aero apokes for less than
$200.

Opinions, advise?

Dear Andre,

This page lets you try various wheels on various courses:
http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course
-------
461.80 standard 32-spoke box wheels
452.11 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)

That's about 2% faster, roughly an average of 19.8 mph versus 19.4
mph. The difference can be seen on a cyclocomputer, but probably not
felt by the rider.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I don't think this is picking at nits, but Andres said _over_ 20 mph, not
_at_ 20 mph.

Carl Fogel wrote:

Andres Muro wrote:

If I got a wheels with 28 to 30 mm rims and *16 to 24 aero spokes,
will I feel a difference at speeds over 20mph?

Any advantages in speed over the more conventional 24mm wheels?

This page lets you try various wheels on various courses:
*http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds * for 4km standing-start generic TT course
-------
*461.80 * standard 32-spoke box wheels
*452.11 * lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)

That's about 2% faster, roughly an average of 19.8 mph versus 19.4
mph. The difference can be seen on a cyclocomputer, but probably not
felt by the rider.

Funny. Almost all my wheels have 48 round spokes, and I ride so
slowly I sometimes wonder whether I'm moving backwards. I had always
credited the foolishly unaerodynamic wheels for my laughable
performance. I reckoned if I only had enough money to buy some swell
wheels with NACA airfoil rims and 7 bladed spokes in a three-quarters
radial pattern, I'd be even faster than those Euro pros who are
handicapped by Luddite UCI rules.

Now you're telling me all I have to gain is two lousy percent?!
That's just not going to work. I need a second opinion.

Chalo

On Nov 16, 2:15*pm, "Carl Sundquist" wrote:
wrote in message

...



On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 09:38:27 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Question:

Lately I've been riding by myself for about 50-60 flat miles on
weekends. I do long stretches where I try to keep it above 20mph.

I have a tribike and a road bike and use them interchangeably. Both
have conventional 19mm deep rims with 32 spokes.

If I got a wheels with 28 to 30 mm rims and *16 to 24 aero spokes,
will I feel a difference at speeds over 20mph?

Any advantages in speed over the more conventional 24mm wheels?

I am considering the neuvation m28 aeros. There are also a few other
wheels in the market with 30 mm rims and 24 aero apokes for less than
$200.

Opinions, advise?

Dear Andre,

This page lets you try various wheels on various courses:
http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds * for 4km standing-start generic TT course
-------
461.80 * standard 32-spoke box wheels
452.11 * lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)

That's about 2% faster, roughly an average of 19.8 mph versus 19.4
mph. The difference can be seen on a cyclocomputer, but probably not
felt by the rider.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I don't think this is picking at nits, but Andres said _over_ 20 mph, not
_at_ 20 mph.

Not much over 20mph. However, 0.4 miles an hour is something
significant. Sometimes, with headwinds, I am going 19.X mph and want
to get over 20mph. The 0,4 difference may get me there. I usually
cruise at around 21ish with little to no wind or with sidewinds. With
a tail wind I really don't try to go any harder. However, with a
headwind I try to keep it as close to 20 as I can. 20 seems to be some
sort of magical number for me.

I'm trying to figure out if I can get a reasonable advantage with
little investment. I won't go to either a trispoke or a full disk
because they get tricky on sidewinds especially going downhill. In El
Paso 15 mile an hour sidewinds are pretty common along with
dustdevils. I also want to keep my investment at less than $200.

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 15:15:59 -0600, "Carl Sundquist"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 09:38:27 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

Question:

Lately I've been riding by myself for about 50-60 flat miles on
weekends. I do long stretches where I try to keep it above 20mph.

I have a tribike and a road bike and use them interchangeably. Both
have conventional 19mm deep rims with 32 spokes.

If I got a wheels with 28 to 30 mm rims and 16 to 24 aero spokes,
will I feel a difference at speeds over 20mph?

Any advantages in speed over the more conventional 24mm wheels?

I am considering the neuvation m28 aeros. There are also a few other
wheels in the market with 30 mm rims and 24 aero apokes for less than
$200.

Opinions, advise?

Dear Andre,

This page lets you try various wheels on various courses:
http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course
-------
461.80 standard 32-spoke box wheels
452.11 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)

That's about 2% faster, roughly an average of 19.8 mph versus 19.4
mph. The difference can be seen on a cyclocomputer, but probably not
felt by the rider.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I don't think this is picking at nits, but Andres said _over_ 20 mph, not
_at_ 20 mph.

Dear Carl,

That's just the defaults, which work out to about 20 mph for fast
wheels.

Anyone interested can change the watts to produce whatever imaginary
speeds they like, with a wide variety of wheels--most of which cost
over $200.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 13:37:58 -0800 (PST), Chalo
wrote:

Carl Fogel wrote:

Andres Muro wrote:

If I got a wheels with 28 to 30 mm rims and *16 to 24 aero spokes,
will I feel a difference at speeds over 20mph?

Any advantages in speed over the more conventional 24mm wheels?

This page lets you try various wheels on various courses:
*http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds * for 4km standing-start generic TT course
-------
*461.80 * standard 32-spoke box wheels
*452.11 * lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)

That's about 2% faster, roughly an average of 19.8 mph versus 19.4
mph. The difference can be seen on a cyclocomputer, but probably not
felt by the rider.

Funny. Almost all my wheels have 48 round spokes, and I ride so
slowly I sometimes wonder whether I'm moving backwards. I had always
credited the foolishly unaerodynamic wheels for my laughable
performance. I reckoned if I only had enough money to buy some swell
wheels with NACA airfoil rims and 7 bladed spokes in a three-quarters
radial pattern, I'd be even faster than those Euro pros who are
handicapped by Luddite UCI rules.

Now you're telling me all I have to gain is two lousy percent?!
That's just not going to work. I need a second opinion.

Chalo

Dear Chalo,

Okay, here's a second opinion: red paint.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Andres Muro wrote:
If I got a wheels with 28 to 30 mm rims and 16 to 24 aero spokes,
will I feel a difference at speeds over 20mph?
Any advantages in speed over the more conventional 24mm wheels?

Carl Fogel wrote:
This page lets you try various wheels on various courses:
http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course
-------
461.80 standard 32-spoke box wheels
452.11 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)

That's about 2% faster, roughly an average of 19.8 mph versus 19.4
mph. The difference can be seen on a cyclocomputer, but probably not
felt by the rider.

Chalo wrote:
Funny. Almost all my wheels have 48 round spokes, and I ride so
slowly I sometimes wonder whether I'm moving backwards. I had always
credited the foolishly unaerodynamic wheels for my laughable
performance. I reckoned if I only had enough money to buy some swell
wheels with NACA airfoil rims and 7 bladed spokes in a three-quarters
radial pattern, I'd be even faster than those Euro pros who are
handicapped by Luddite UCI rules.
Now you're telling me all I have to gain is two lousy percent?!
That's just not going to work. I need a second opinion.

wrote:
Okay, here's a second opinion: red paint.

Yep, works for Ferrari
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Based on my extensive review of wind tunnel tests of wheels (mostly
from Tour Magazine), a good rule of thumb is that you can gain ~1% in
speed by going from shallow rims with lots of round spokes to a common
25-30mm rim with few aero steel spokes. From there to a super fancy
set with 80-100mm deep rims gains you another 1% or so.

On Nov 16, 6:30 pm, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 13:37:58 -0800 (PST), Chalo



wrote:
Carl Fogel wrote:

Andres Muro wrote:

If I got a wheels with 28 to 30 mm rims and 16 to 24 aero spokes,
will I feel a difference at speeds over 20mph?

Any advantages in speed over the more conventional 24mm wheels?

This page lets you try various wheels on various courses:
http://www.analyticcycling.com/DiffE...urse_Page.html

4,000 meter standing-start course

seconds for 4km standing-start generic TT course
-------
461.80 standard 32-spoke box wheels
452.11 lowest drag C(obb data) wheels (Deep S90)

That's about 2% faster, roughly an average of 19.8 mph versus 19.4
mph. The difference can be seen on a cyclocomputer, but probably not
felt by the rider.

Funny. Almost all my wheels have 48 round spokes, and I ride so
slowly I sometimes wonder whether I'm moving backwards. I had always
credited the foolishly unaerodynamic wheels for my laughable
performance. I reckoned if I only had enough money to buy some swell
wheels with NACA airfoil rims and 7 bladed spokes in a three-quarters
radial pattern, I'd be even faster than those Euro pros who are
handicapped by Luddite UCI rules.

Now you're telling me all I have to gain is two lousy percent?!
That's just not going to work. I need a second opinion.

Chalo

Dear Chalo,

Okay, here's a second opinion: red paint.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Another option.

Place an advert for a rabbit whose speed exceeds yours and whose
pheremones incline you to give chase and stay close. $200 to go to his
or her bike club as a tax-deductible charitable contribution.

But, Carl, your advice wasn't dynamic, didn't anticipate Andres'
improvement. The stronger and more fit he becomes, the faster he goes,
and the greater the aerodynamic advantage of the expenditure. You
might have pointed out, also, that gains of such small magnitude are
easily achieved less expensively with the best tires, riding on the
smoothest, most worn part of the road, and probably enjoyed at slower
speeds, too. The difference between smooth concrete and asphalt in
friction is good for 2-3% at 20mph.

And a better aero position and smaller aero footprint comes free and
with yet larger speed advantage.

HarryTravis