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Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 31st 18, 05:43 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.transport
Nick Finnigan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 531
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

On 31/08/2018 13:13, NY wrote:
"JNugent" wrote in message
...
The drivers and riders of motor vehicles - and cyclists - are
obliged to give way to pedestrians crossing any road into which
they are turning in both the UK and the USA.


Being obliged to give way to pedestrians who are actually crossing (ie
they're already in the road) makes a lot of sense, on a best-endeavours
basis if not a legal obligation, just as you would do you best to avoid
someone crossing anywhere else. But does UK and US law actually require you
to stop for someone who is waiting on the pavement to cross: is there a
portion of every road junction which has *implicit* zebra-crossing rules?


In the UK, the 'footway' is part of the 'road' and the rule is that
pedestrians already crossing the 'road' have priority. But if you are
waiting (e.g. with earphones on, looking at a hand held device, by a
pelicon crossing), it may not be clear what you intend to do.

As a pedestrian, I would never step off the pavement unless I could see
that the road was clear: I would never *make* a car stop for me with the
single exception of a zebra crossing.


What do you mean by clear (vehicles moving away, vehicles 400 yards away)?
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  #22  
Old August 31st 18, 07:30 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Mr Pounder Esquire
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,896
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

Simon Jester wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 10:37:17 AM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote:
On 31/08/18 00:06, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 21:29, TMS320 wrote:
On 30/08/18 19:32, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 15:20, TMS320 wrote:
On 30/08/18 14:25, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 00:19, TMS320 wrote:
On 29/08/18 20:56, Bret Cahill wrote:

This 4 year old article finally appeared in the U. S. media
with little attempt to hide the plagiarism:

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26073797

Visiting your side of the water a couple of years ago, I found
the larger towns and cities very walkable. Probably because
they tend to be
in grids, there usually isn't much reason to cross except at
intersections. Roads are wider so th ecrossing time requires
larger gaps between vehicles but, compared to the UK,
intersections with sidewalks are better marked and, unlike the
UK, drivers give way when turning.

The drivers and riders of motor vehicles - and cyclists - are
obliged to give way to pedestrians crossing any road into which
they are turning in both the UK and the USA. The American right
(in most places) to turn right against a red traffic light does
not undermine that.

Obligation and practice are not necessarily the same thing.

My observed experience is clearly different from yours. Drivers in
the UK and the USA do generally give way where they are supposed
to, subject always to the fact that a small minority either flout
the law or are ignorant of it.

If only one could say the same of cyclists, the majority of whom
appear oblivious to this and most other traffic rules (that's
putting it charitably).

Since you don't walk far how would you know?

What?


Perhaps an internet translation helps...

Since yous dun corky and chalk dead far 'ow would ye nah?


Please remember Nugent is a long term mental health inmate.
The fact that it believes motorists give way to pedestrians at
junctions demonstrates that it has not walked on a public street for
several decades.


If nobody else has told you that you are boring ****, please allow me to be
the first to tell you that you are a boring ****.


  #23  
Old August 31st 18, 07:44 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.transport
TMS320
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,875
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

On 31/08/18 15:26, wrote:
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 15:10:59 +0100 TMS320 wrote:
On 31/08/18 13:13, NY wrote:

Being obliged to give way to pedestrians who are actually
crossing (ie they're already in the road) makes a lot of sense,
on a best-endeavours basis if not a legal obligation, just as you
would do you best to avoid someone crossing anywhere else. But
does UK and US law actually require you to stop for someone who
is waiting on the pavement to cross: is there a portion of every
road junction which has *implicit* zebra-crossing rules?


Whether or not it is law, I find a noticeable difference in
culture. The best we get in the UK is that it is wrong to run
someone over that is already crossing. Quite different to actual
give way.

In the US, as mainland Europe, vehicles and pedestrians going
straight on at traffic lights are treated as equal and pedestrians
have strict priority over turning vehicles. They will get green
lights at the same time. In the UK, a pedestrian phase always turns
vehicular traffic lights red.


Which IMO is a good thing. Not all drivers stop for people on
crossings so you can guarantee they wouldn't stop if they had a green
light.


You might want to rephrase it that there is no guarantee they will stop
if they have a green light.

But I disagree. Without a separate pedestrian phase, everything moves
more quickly; less frustration amongst drivers, less incentive for
pedestrians to get bored and cross on red. And as I said, I think a
separate pedestrian phase suppresses a culture of giving way.
  #24  
Old August 31st 18, 08:11 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
TMS320
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,875
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

On 31/08/18 15:34, Simon Jester wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 10:37:17 AM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote:
On 31/08/18 00:06, JNugent wrote:


What?


Perhaps an internet translation helps...

Since yous dun corky and chalk dead far 'ow would ye nah?


Please remember Nugent is a long term mental health inmate. The fact
that it believes motorists give way to pedestrians at junctions
demonstrates that it has not walked on a public street for several
decades.


Indeed. Unfortunately Nugent doesn't know it.
  #25  
Old August 31st 18, 08:21 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.transport
TMS320
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,875
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

On 31/08/18 13:53, JNugent wrote:
On 31/08/2018 13:15, TMS320 wrote:
On 31/08/18 10:59, JNugent wrote:
On 31/08/2018 10:37, TMS320 wrote:
On 31/08/18 00:06, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 21:29, TMS320 wrote:
On 30/08/18 19:32, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 15:20, TMS320 wrote:
On 30/08/18 14:25, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 00:19, TMS320 wrote:
On 29/08/18 20:56, Bret Cahill wrote:

This 4 year old article finally appeared in the U. S. media with
little attempt to hide the plagiarism:

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26073797

Visiting your side of the water a couple of years ago, I found
the
larger towns and cities very walkable. Probably because they
tend to be
in grids, there usually isn't much reason to cross except at
intersections. Roads are wider so th ecrossing time requires
larger
gaps between vehicles but, compared to the UK, intersections
with sidewalks are better marked and, unlike the UK, drivers
give way when turning.

The drivers and riders of motor vehicles - and cyclists - are
obliged to give way to pedestrians crossing any road into which
they are turning in both the UK and the USA. The American right
(in most places) to turn right against a red traffic light does
not undermine that.

Obligation and practice are not necessarily the same thing.

My observed experience is clearly different from yours. Drivers
in the UK and the USA do generally give way where they are
supposed to, subject always to the fact that a small minority
either flout the law or are ignorant of it.

If only one could say the same of cyclists, the majority of whom
appear oblivious to this and most other traffic rules (that's
putting it charitably).

Since you don't walk far how would you know?

What?

Perhaps an internet translation helps...

Since yous dun corky and chalk dead far 'ow would ye nah?

You get more weird with every post, it seems.


You want weird?

On 07/06/18 17:23, JNugent wrote:
"It all arises out of experience and acquired
information, much of it gained in this very NG".

You should cease having fantasies about your "observed experiences"
being of value.


You seem to think it is not possible to acquire information via reading.


Wrong. You lumped experience and information together in the phrase I
quoted. You cannot acquire both from reading. With experience you get
the ability to filter information, instead of taking it in at face value.
  #26  
Old August 31st 18, 08:37 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Simon Jester
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,727
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 7:30:49 PM UTC+1, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
Simon Jester wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 10:37:17 AM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote:
On 31/08/18 00:06, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 21:29, TMS320 wrote:
On 30/08/18 19:32, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 15:20, TMS320 wrote:
On 30/08/18 14:25, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 00:19, TMS320 wrote:
On 29/08/18 20:56, Bret Cahill wrote:

This 4 year old article finally appeared in the U. S. media
with little attempt to hide the plagiarism:

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26073797

Visiting your side of the water a couple of years ago, I found
the larger towns and cities very walkable. Probably because
they tend to be
in grids, there usually isn't much reason to cross except at
intersections. Roads are wider so th ecrossing time requires
larger gaps between vehicles but, compared to the UK,
intersections with sidewalks are better marked and, unlike the
UK, drivers give way when turning.

The drivers and riders of motor vehicles - and cyclists - are
obliged to give way to pedestrians crossing any road into which
they are turning in both the UK and the USA. The American right
(in most places) to turn right against a red traffic light does
not undermine that.

Obligation and practice are not necessarily the same thing.

My observed experience is clearly different from yours. Drivers in
the UK and the USA do generally give way where they are supposed
to, subject always to the fact that a small minority either flout
the law or are ignorant of it.

If only one could say the same of cyclists, the majority of whom
appear oblivious to this and most other traffic rules (that's
putting it charitably).

Since you don't walk far how would you know?

What?

Perhaps an internet translation helps...

Since yous dun corky and chalk dead far 'ow would ye nah?


Please remember Nugent is a long term mental health inmate.
The fact that it believes motorists give way to pedestrians at
junctions demonstrates that it has not walked on a public street for
several decades.


If nobody else has told you that you are boring ****, please allow me to be
the first to tell you that you are a boring ****.


There is no way you can ever understand how little I care what you think.

  #27  
Old September 1st 18, 01:39 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
JNugent[_10_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 350
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

On 31/08/2018 20:37, Simon Jester wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 7:30:49 PM UTC+1, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:
Simon Jester wrote:
On Friday, August 31, 2018 at 10:37:17 AM UTC+1, TMS320 wrote:
On 31/08/18 00:06, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 21:29, TMS320 wrote:
On 30/08/18 19:32, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 15:20, TMS320 wrote:
On 30/08/18 14:25, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 00:19, TMS320 wrote:
On 29/08/18 20:56, Bret Cahill wrote:

This 4 year old article finally appeared in the U. S. media
with little attempt to hide the plagiarism:

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26073797

Visiting your side of the water a couple of years ago, I found
the larger towns and cities very walkable. Probably because
they tend to be
in grids, there usually isn't much reason to cross except at
intersections. Roads are wider so th ecrossing time requires
larger gaps between vehicles but, compared to the UK,
intersections with sidewalks are better marked and, unlike the
UK, drivers give way when turning.

The drivers and riders of motor vehicles - and cyclists - are
obliged to give way to pedestrians crossing any road into which
they are turning in both the UK and the USA. The American right
(in most places) to turn right against a red traffic light does
not undermine that.

Obligation and practice are not necessarily the same thing.

My observed experience is clearly different from yours. Drivers in
the UK and the USA do generally give way where they are supposed
to, subject always to the fact that a small minority either flout
the law or are ignorant of it.

If only one could say the same of cyclists, the majority of whom
appear oblivious to this and most other traffic rules (that's
putting it charitably).

Since you don't walk far how would you know?

What?

Perhaps an internet translation helps...

Since yous dun corky and chalk dead far 'ow would ye nah?

Please remember Nugent is a long term mental health inmate.
The fact that it believes motorists give way to pedestrians at
junctions demonstrates that it has not walked on a public street for
several decades.


If nobody else has told you that you are boring ****, please allow me to be
the first to tell you that you are a boring ****.


There is no way you can ever understand how little I care what you think.


Probably a lot more than I care what you "think".


  #28  
Old September 1st 18, 01:42 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.transport
JNugent[_10_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 350
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

On 31/08/2018 20:21, TMS320 wrote:
On 31/08/18 13:53, JNugent wrote:
On 31/08/2018 13:15, TMS320 wrote:
On 31/08/18 10:59, JNugent wrote:
On 31/08/2018 10:37, TMS320 wrote:
On 31/08/18 00:06, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 21:29, TMS320 wrote:
On 30/08/18 19:32, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 15:20, TMS320 wrote:
On 30/08/18 14:25, JNugent wrote:
On 30/08/2018 00:19, TMS320 wrote:
On 29/08/18 20:56, Bret Cahill wrote:

This 4 year old article finally appeared in the U. S. media
with
little attempt to hide the plagiarism:

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26073797

Visiting your side of the water a couple of years ago, I
found the
larger towns and cities very walkable. Probably because they
tend to be
in grids, there usually isn't much reason to cross except at
intersections. Roads are wider so th ecrossing time requires
larger
gaps between vehicles but, compared to the UK, intersections
with sidewalks are better marked and, unlike the UK, drivers
give way when turning.

The drivers and riders of motor vehicles - and cyclists - are
obliged to give way to pedestrians crossing any road into
which they are turning in both the UK and the USA. The
American right (in most places) to turn right against a red
traffic light does not undermine that.

Obligation and practice are not necessarily the same thing.

My observed experience is clearly different from yours. Drivers
in the UK and the USA do generally give way where they are
supposed to, subject always to the fact that a small minority
either flout the law or are ignorant of it.

If only one could say the same of cyclists, the majority of whom
appear oblivious to this and most other traffic rules (that's
putting it charitably).

Since you don't walk far how would you know?

What?

Perhaps an internet translation helps...

Since yous dun corky and chalk dead far 'ow would ye nah?

You get more weird with every post, it seems.

You want weird?

On 07/06/18 17:23, JNugent wrote:
"It all arises out of experience and acquired
information, much of it gained in this very NG".

You should cease having fantasies about your "observed experiences"
being of value.


You seem to think it is not possible to acquire information via reading.


Wrong. You lumped experience and information together in the phrase I
quoted.


Ah.. right... I get it now.

You just aren't very good at comprehension.

Why didn't you say so earlier?

You cannot acquire both from reading. With experience you get
the ability to filter information, instead of taking it in at face value.


Indeed. Experience makes clear the difference between (a) believing what
cyclists here claim and (b) the truth.

  #29  
Old September 1st 18, 09:53 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling,uk.transport
NY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 34
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

"TMS320" wrote in message
news
In the US, as mainland Europe, vehicles and pedestrians going straight on
at traffic lights are treated as equal and pedestrians have strict
priority over turning vehicles. They will get green lights at the same
time. In the UK, a pedestrian phase always turns vehicular traffic lights
red.


I noticed in small-town Massachusetts (Ipswich and Georgetown) drivers were
much more willing to stop for a pedestrian who looked as if they *might* be
about to cross the road - and nowhere near a "Ped Xing" (pedestrian
crossing - the signs sat Ped Xing). It happened once when I was looking at a
house ont he opposite side of the road, with my body facing forward along
the road: as soon as I turned my head, a car stopped in anticipation that I
was about to cross.

  #30  
Old September 1st 18, 10:59 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Simon Jester
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,727
Default Interesting Article On How Cars Took Over the Road

On Saturday, September 1, 2018 at 9:53:41 AM UTC+1, NY wrote:
"TMS320" wrote in message
news
In the US, as mainland Europe, vehicles and pedestrians going straight on
at traffic lights are treated as equal and pedestrians have strict
priority over turning vehicles. They will get green lights at the same
time. In the UK, a pedestrian phase always turns vehicular traffic lights
red.


I noticed in small-town Massachusetts (Ipswich and Georgetown) drivers were
much more willing to stop for a pedestrian who looked as if they *might* be
about to cross the road - and nowhere near a "Ped Xing" (pedestrian
crossing - the signs sat Ped Xing). It happened once when I was looking at a
house ont he opposite side of the road, with my body facing forward along
the road: as soon as I turned my head, a car stopped in anticipation that I
was about to cross.


I remember being at a pedestrian crossing in Oslo some years ago.
When the pedestrian light turned green the pedestrians walked into the road without looking and the cars stopped. In the UK there would be mass casualties and the victims would be blamed because cars are not obliged to stop for pedestrians until the traffic light has been red for 10 seconds.
 




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