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#71
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Who is at fault and how should it be dealt?
"Theo Bekkers" wrote in message ... BTH could be saying "I'm not going to pay for that $600 Columbus frame, they should be riding a K-Mart bike like I am", but I can't picture him in the Hell Ride peleton. :-) + this is where a pharmacist I know worked for a while mk5000 "Basically we're setting up the entire network around the concept of communities, As you travel down the road of life you go into and out of different [medical] communities, whether directly or indirectly.People should be able to become part of one, two or all different pieces of our network."--marc krigsman |
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#72
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Who is at fault and how should it be dealt?
SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
The customary rules of conduct for group rides includes/allows close riding, and all the riders taking part practice "tailgating." And as I've said before, a custom does not make a law. (and that I am not a lawyer, and legal advice obtained from the Internet, well, says it all...) You get the idea. I wonder what a real judge in a real court would actually do if someone actually pushed it that far. According to strict State vehicle code prevalent in the US, the rear-ender is almost always at fault. But does that help? I can only speak for New South Wales because they're the only road laws I'm vaguely familiar with. If you're on the road with a bicycle, you assume the same rules as a motor vehicle. A poofy waiver saying you don't, doesn't change the law. In the unlikely event you backend someone one a bike, resulting in the carbon splintering and impaling the other guy through the heart (unlikely but bear with me here), you WILL be held liable. Lesser grades of injuries or property damage don't change the law. There is no such thing as a document that you can sign that makes you invincible to laws that apply under the prevailing conditions. This also holds true for _private_ land, but because there aren't any "road" laws that apply on private land, THEN it might be a different story depending on the conditions. However, there are STILL property damage rights, and death and/or injury rights that apply even if incident occurred on private property. On a public road that isn't closed for an event, the rules of the road apply -- he's responsible for controlling his vehicle and avoiding stopped traffic. That is a very stiff legal positivist attitude. Strictly true, but "right?" Learned Hand: "Do justice, sir, do justice." Oliver Wendell Holmes: "That is not my job. It is my job to apply the law." There is no place for justice in a court of law. I suppose there was once supposed to be, but doesn't appear that way now. I don't think it is vague at all. It is very well understood pack riding behavior. Participants would seem to be consenting. (Well some dumbasses are flakes, but they should be getting chewed out. Normal/basic social pressure most often provides the needed correction.) Collective idiocy doesn't negate current law. -- Linux Registered User # 302622 http://counter.li.org |
#73
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Who is at fault and how should it be dealt?
In article 0d8796da-43b6-466c-8905-51ac4aad67e8
@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com, says... On Nov 23, 10:40 am, wrote: Ethically, there's no doubt the negligent rider should pay for the damage he caused. That sort of assumes that the statute law -- the vehicle code -- is well applied in a fairness sense to this sort activity. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant that *ethically*, entirely apart from the legal question, the rider who screwed up should pay for the damage he did. Not paying attention when approaching an intersection is dumb, reckless riding. -- is Joshua Putnam http://www.phred.org/~josh/ Braze your own bicycle frames. See http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html |
#75
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Who is at fault and how should it be dealt?
In article ,
Donald Munro wrote: Artoi wrote: Getting a tougher frame may reduce the damage, but may still get damaged or even totaled. The question really has nothing to do with what the equipment is, it's about how the situation should be managed. -- Dumbass, Just get a Bianchi and the warranty will cover all the appaling damage. Bianchi's warranty is only 3 years IIRC. -- |
#76
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Who is at fault and how should it be dealt?
In article
, SLAVE of THE STATE wrote: That sort of assumes that the statute law -- the vehicle code -- is well applied in a fairness sense to this sort activity. That is dubious -- I suspect the law was mainly written for much higher mass vehicles with much higher velocity. A vehicle is a vehicle. Never heard weight being a criteria. The customary rules of conduct for group rides includes/allows close riding, and all the riders taking part practice "tailgating." Essentially the riders know the score (that something like that could happen) and are consenting by participating. If customary law were allowed to develop for this particular activity (meaning not get short- circuited by statute), the law may be quite different. If you want to apply some sort of strict rule according to legal positivism, then you can easily say things like "damage he caused." Alone, it is not persuasive in a common sense sort of way. Not sure about that. With specific reference to the hypothetical (or not so hypothetical) scenario. The bunch was coming to an intersection with signals being given, permission for close quarter drafting/tailgating would have ceased by this point. Drafting practice may be permitted during uninterrupted sections, but it's just common sense to back off when there's traffic condition ahead, especially one that can be seen by all in the bunch from a distance. I don't think it is vague at all. It is very well understood pack riding behavior. Participants would seem to be consenting. (Well some dumbasses are flakes, but they should be getting chewed out. Normal/basic social pressure most often provides the needed correction.) Yes, well understood pack riding behaviour to also look way ahead of the rider in front and follow to the calls and hand signals of the lead rider. In the hypothetical case, it was second wheel who crashed into the leader of the bunch. So the dumbass here being? -- |
#77
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Who is at fault and how should it be dealt?
In article ,
"Theo Bekkers" wrote: Artoi wrote: But going back. I note that there are some riders object to people riding high end bikes and make statements like "No way am I going to pay for that CF bike". Reverse snobbery? BTH could be saying "I'm not going to pay for that $600 Columbus frame, they should be riding a K-Mart bike like I am", but I can't picture him in the Hell Ride peleton. :-) Yes, I would take it as a form of reverse snobbery too. -- |
#78
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Who is at fault and how should it be dealt?
In article
, BT Humble wrote: On Nov 27, 1:50 pm, Artoi wrote: In article , "Theo Bekkers" wrote: Artoi wrote: But going back. I note that there are some riders object to people riding high end bikes and make statements like "No way am I going to pay for that CF bike". Reverse snobbery? BTHcould be saying "I'm not going to pay for that $600 Columbus frame, they should be riding a K-Mart bike like I am", but I can't picture him in the Hell Ride peleton. :-) Yes, I would take it as a form of reverse snobbery too. -- Hmm, and all this last week I was thinking that the burning feeling in my ears was just because of the sunburn! ;-) Much as I hate to have to admit that I'm not perfect in every way, there *is* a substantial element of reverse snobbery in what I'm doing. If you're trying to win big-name races where the difference between first and second place is measured in fractions of a second over a 100km race I suppose I can see how lighter weight, etc. might make a difference. However for your average club rider *it appears to me* that the performance-return-on-investment falls off a cliff once you go over $2k or so. I bid $1000. -- Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/ "My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook. Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing |
#79
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Who is at fault and how should it be dealt?
In article
], Ryan Cousineau wrote: In article , BT Humble wrote: On Nov 27, 1:50 pm, Artoi wrote: In article , "Theo Bekkers" wrote: Artoi wrote: But going back. I note that there are some riders object to people riding high end bikes and make statements like "No way am I going to pay for that CF bike". Reverse snobbery? BTHcould be saying "I'm not going to pay for that $600 Columbus frame, they should be riding a K-Mart bike like I am", but I can't picture him in the Hell Ride peleton. :-) Yes, I would take it as a form of reverse snobbery too. -- Hmm, and all this last week I was thinking that the burning feeling in my ears was just because of the sunburn! ;-) Much as I hate to have to admit that I'm not perfect in every way, there *is* a substantial element of reverse snobbery in what I'm doing. If you're trying to win big-name races where the difference between first and second place is measured in fractions of a second over a 100km race I suppose I can see how lighter weight, etc. might make a difference. However for your average club rider *it appears to me* that the performance-return-on-investment falls off a cliff once you go over $2k or so. I bid $1000. Others in my club would bid $500. -- |
#80
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Who is at fault and how should it be dealt?
performance-return-on-investment falls off a cliff
once you go over $2k or so. I bid $1000. Others in my club would bid $500. Depends on the club. We had a guy riding with us one winter riding on a cheap mountain bike with knobbies, while we were on road bikes. He did PBP a few months later (unless that was the year he did BMB). (PBP is Paris-Brest-Paris in 90 hours. BMB is similar, but Boston-Montreal-Boston). For him, the cheaper the mountain bike, and the knobbier the knobbies, the more performance enhancement he got. |
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