OT Is anyone really surprised?

"Michael Press" wrote in message
...

I could not read Ayn Rand at length. Never got any traction,
and had to quit. And every time somebody kindly offers a
quotation that I take to be a succinct embodiment of one
of her notions I read it closely, scratch my head, read it
closely again, think, puzzle, associate, fit concepts together
as if they are jigsaw pieces, then throw up my hands and
admit that it is beyond my ken.

Are you saying that there's a difference between Hitler murdering Jews and
Stalin murdering the middle class?

In article ,
Michael Press wrote:

In article ,
"Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:

"SLAVE of THE STATE" wrote in message
...
On Jan 23, 8:11 am, Woland99 wrote:

This is gibberish.
Why dont you start thinking for yourself instead of perpetuating
FOX bullsite about "liberals". There are maybe 200 people that fit
their idiotic propaganda - in whole of US of A - and most of them
in Berkeley.

http://freedomkeys.com/berkeley.htm

That will likely be so foreign to Woland that he won't understand what
you're getting at.

Certainly the lefties here won't understand a word of it.

The significant quote: "The secret dread of modern intellectuals, liberals
and conservatives alike, the unadmitted terror at the root of their
anxiety,
which all of their current irrationalities are intended to stave off and to
disguise, is the unstated knowledge that Soviet Russia [was] the full,
actual, literal, consistent embodiment of the morality of altruism, that
Stalin did not corrupt a noble ideal, that this is the only way altruism
has
to be or can ever be practiced." -- Ayn Rand

I could not read Ayn Rand at length. Never got any traction,
and had to quit. And every time somebody kindly offers a
quotation that I take to be a succinct embodiment of one
of her notions I read it closely, scratch my head, read it
closely again, think, puzzle, associate, fit concepts together
as if they are jigsaw pieces, then throw up my hands and
admit that it is beyond my ken.

Seriously, Michael, agree or disagree, Ms. Rand's quote up there isn't
that hard to parse, even with the crazy structure.

She means that altruism is evil. She says that Stalinism was the
essential, pure, extreme form of altruism.

The first part says that she feels that subconsciously, modern
intellectuals (of all political ilks) know this, and it makes them
anxious.

I, as a good Catholic boy (albeit one with a weird libertarian bent that
has no business being there) think this is completely wrong: a mad
equivalency of totalitarianism and altruism. But it's not that hard to
understand.

Rand's often knocked as a bad writer, but I don't think she's peculiarly
incomprehensible, at least not here.

ObBike:
"Road racing imitates life, the way it would be without the corruptive
influence of civilization. When you seen an enemy lying on the ground,
what's your first reaction? To help him to his feet. In road racing you
kick him to death." - Tim Krabbe, The Rider

Ayn Rand would have loved bike racing. Shrug, you sprinters, shrug!

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing

In article ,
Bill C wrote:

On Jan 23, 6:03*pm, SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:


Yet they keep repeating that myth of "vast liberal
conspiracy". I guess some methods never get old, eh?

We have new audio trainer/training tapes. *(A "liberal" just ain't
what they once were.)


Goes along with Howard's noone in the US new or supported Mugabe:
http://www.slate.com/id/81386/
Quoted:

It was not supposed to be this way. Mugabe, the last great African
liberator still in power, was supposed to be Southern Africa's savior.
The son of a carpenter, he was radicalized to Marxism while studying
at South Africa's black Fort Hare University, whose alumni include
Nelson Mandela. In the early '60s, Mugabe joined Rhodesia's black
resistance and was almost immediately jailed by the thuggish white
government of Ian Smith. Released in 1975, Mugabe took command of one
of Zimbabwe's two black guerrilla movements

According to Howard I'm wrong and he was a minor player, who had
little to NO support here among the left because noone knew who he
was.

I didn't say he was a minor player. He wasn't really in the foreground until after
the Smith govt. had just about folded. Anyway, that article has a few errors. It
states that there were two resistance groups, when there were actually more like 20.
One of the largest and most militant groups was led by Joshua Nkomo, while another
large grouop was put together by other people who were more interested in political
solutions (although they too had a military wing). Mugabe did take over in '75 but
mostly continued the political angle, though the military part of the resistance
still played a big role.

Anyway (again), my recollection of those times is that people saw the Smith
government as racist and oppressive as hell (people knew that they drafted about
every white male and hired all kinds of mercenaries to fight the blacks and, much
less wellknown until recently, used such tactics as releasing anthrax on innocent
civilians). When they (Smith's govt.) realized that they were surrounded by nations
that had de-colonized (except for South Africa) and that they were outnumbered by
about 100 to 1, they knew that they had better negotiate. When the transitional
government took over, it did seem to be fairly well behaved, hence they did get
approval from many sources (not just "the Left"), including many governments. About
the time that Mugabe started doing stupid **** that got public notice, the situation
in South Africa was kicking into high gear. Media attention on Zimbabwe vaporized.

I don't think the average person here knew who Mugabe is until Zimbabwe started
getting attention for having huge inflation and seizing farms. They just haven't been
on the radar screen, Bill. it's not all that uncommon, especially in Africa. For
example, what do you think is the deadliest conflict since WW II? At least 3.8
million people have died in only six years in the area around the Democratic Republic
of the Congo. How much of that do we hear about in the news?

--
tanx,
Howard

Now it's raining pitchforks and women,
But I've already got a pitchfork...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

In article , "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com
wrote:

"SLAVE of THE STATE" wrote in message
...
On Jan 23, 8:11 am, Woland99 wrote:

This is gibberish.
Why dont you start thinking for yourself instead of perpetuating
FOX bullsite about "liberals". There are maybe 200 people that fit
their idiotic propaganda - in whole of US of A - and most of them
in Berkeley.

http://freedomkeys.com/berkeley.htm

That will likely be so foreign to Woland that he won't understand what
you're getting at.

Certainly the lefties here won't understand a word of it.

The significant quote: "The secret dread of modern intellectuals, liberals
and conservatives alike, the unadmitted terror at the root of their anxiety,
which all of their current irrationalities are intended to stave off and to
disguise, is the unstated knowledge that Soviet Russia [was] the full,
actual, literal, consistent embodiment of the morality of altruism, that
Stalin did not corrupt a noble ideal, that this is the only way altruism has
to be or can ever be practiced." -- Ayn Rand

Anyone who approvingly quotes Rand as a source of enlightenment on anything is a
few bricks short of a load.

--
tanx,
Howard

Now it's raining pitchforks and women,
But I've already got a pitchfork...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Howard Kveck wrote:
I didn't say he was a minor player. He wasn't really in the foreground
until after
the Smith govt. had just about folded. Anyway, that article has a few
errors. It states that there were two resistance groups, when there were
actually more like 20. One of the largest and most militant groups was led
by Joshua Nkomo, while another large grouop was put together by other
people who were more interested in political solutions (although they too
had a military wing). Mugabe did take over in '75 but mostly continued the
political angle, though the military part of the resistance still played a
big role.

And back in the eighties Mugabe and his army committed
genocide on Nkomo whose party and tribe were in
opposition to him.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljust...2002/0106z.htm

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
I, as a good Catholic boy (albeit one
with a weird libertarian bent that
has no business being there)

Admitting you ride a bent around here could get you into
more trouble than telling the pope you wear a condom.

In article ],
Ryan Cousineau wrote:

In article ,
Michael Press wrote:

I could not read Ayn Rand at length. Never got any traction,
and had to quit. And every time somebody kindly offers a
quotation that I take to be a succinct embodiment of one
of her notions I read it closely, scratch my head, read it
closely again, think, puzzle, associate, fit concepts together
as if they are jigsaw pieces, then throw up my hands and
admit that it is beyond my ken.

Seriously, Michael, agree or disagree, Ms. Rand's quote up there isn't
that hard to parse, even with the crazy structure.

She means that altruism is evil. She says that Stalinism was the
essential, pure, extreme form of altruism.

The first part says that she feels that subconsciously, modern
intellectuals (of all political ilks) know this, and it makes them
anxious.

I, as a good Catholic boy (albeit one with a weird libertarian bent that
has no business being there) think this is completely wrong: a mad
equivalency of totalitarianism and altruism. But it's not that hard to
understand.

The 2008 version of this is Jonah Goldberg's recent book that purports to show
that liberals are fascists.

--
tanx,
Howard

Now it's raining pitchforks and women,
But I've already got a pitchfork...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

In article ,
Donald Munro wrote:

Howard Kveck wrote:
I didn't say he was a minor player. He wasn't really in the foreground
until after
the Smith govt. had just about folded. Anyway, that article has a few
errors. It states that there were two resistance groups, when there were
actually more like 20. One of the largest and most militant groups was led
by Joshua Nkomo, while another large grouop was put together by other
people who were more interested in political solutions (although they too
had a military wing). Mugabe did take over in '75 but mostly continued the
political angle, though the military part of the resistance still played a
big role.

And back in the eighties Mugabe and his army committed
genocide on Nkomo whose party and tribe were in
opposition to him.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/intljust...2002/0106z.htm

Yeah, that was his "Fifth Brigade" in action. It happened in the mid '80s but, as
I mentioned, that stuff was just not heard about much over here in the US. I guess
there was an attitude of "it's just Africans - that's what they do" so other things
were more important in the media.

The groups and armies in this are an absolute alphabet soup that all start with
'Z': ZAPU, ZANU, ZANLA, ZIPRA, etc.

--
tanx,
Howard

Now it's raining pitchforks and women,
But I've already got a pitchfork...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

On Jan 23, 11:24*pm, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In article ,
*Michael Press wrote:
*"Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:

The significant quote: "The secret dread of modern intellectuals, liberals
and conservatives alike, the unadmitted terror at the root of their
anxiety,
which all of their current irrationalities are intended to stave off and to
disguise, is the unstated knowledge that Soviet Russia [was] the full,
actual, literal, consistent embodiment of the morality of altruism, that
Stalin did not corrupt a noble ideal, that this is the only way altruism
has
to be or can ever be practiced." -- Ayn Rand

I could not read Ayn Rand at length. Never got any traction,
and had to quit. And every time somebody kindly offers a
quotation that I take to be a succinct embodiment of one
of her notions I read it closely, scratch my head, read it
closely again, think, puzzle, associate, fit concepts together
as if they are jigsaw pieces, then throw up my hands and
admit that it is beyond my ken.

Seriously, Michael, agree or disagree, Ms. Rand's quote up there isn't
that hard to parse, even with the crazy structure.

She means that altruism is evil. She says that Stalinism was the
essential, pure, extreme form of altruism.

The first part says that she feels that subconsciously, modern
intellectuals (of all political ilks) know this, and it makes them
anxious.

I, as a good Catholic boy (albeit one with a weird libertarian bent that
has no business being there) think this is completely wrong: a mad
equivalency of totalitarianism and altruism. But it's not that hard to
understand.

Rand's often knocked as a bad writer, but I don't think she's peculiarly
incomprehensible, at least not here.

ObBike:
"Road racing imitates life, the way it would be without the corruptive
influence of civilization. When you seen an enemy lying on the ground,
what's your first reaction? To help him to his feet. In road racing you
kick him to death." - Tim Krabbe, The Rider

Ayn Rand would have loved bike racing. Shrug, you sprinters, shrug!

The Ayn Rand quote is syntactically correct, but
hard to comprehend in that it equates terms by
redefining them. Rand had the tendency to argue
by calling tails legs. (As in the story of Abraham Lincoln,
who riddled "How many legs would a dog have if you
call a tail a leg?" and answered, "Four, because calling
a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.") Also, it's all one
sentence, with too many commas. Because, you know,
a true free man doesn't have to stint on commas like
some pinch-pennied socialist.

Ayn Rand would not have understood bike racing.
She would have liked the kicking-to-death part, but
fundamentally it's a team sport and Rand preferred
rugged individualist supermen. She wouldn't have
appreciated domestiques.

Ben

wrote:
Also, it's all one sentence, with too many commas. Because, you know, a
true free man doesn't have to stint on commas like some pinch-pennied
socialist.

Psst, don't tell greg but there's a planned tax on commas
in the next budget.