#11
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TdF and recumbents
On Jul 27, 10:27*am, Hank wrote:
On Jul 27, 8:52*am, Tim McNamara wrote: Pat writes: How would a recumbent handle the Tour? You mean, if the UCI rules permitted the use of recumbents? They'd like have some advantage on flat breakaways and time trials, but the disadvantages in sprinting and climbing would scupper them compared to regular bikes. Another factor is that recumbents are heavier than regular bikes, although there are now some 20-22 lb recumbents (e.gg., Bacchetta) that can be bought by Joe Everedge. *That would go a long way towards improving climbing. *My friend Don's titanium Bacchetta seems to work pretty good on climbs. I'm wondering how well they'd handle switchbacks, since all lowracers are LWB, right? Plus, having the rider closer to the ground reduces lean clearance. I think they'd be great for TTs and probably flat road stages. In the mountains, both climbing and descending (unless the descent is a straightaway), not so much. And every time Tom uses the phrase "foam hat" I want to punch him in the neck. Not that I'm pro- or anti-helmet, it's just a jackass thing to call it. Hey, I am a proud wearer of a foam hat. My current one bears the marks of a fall and it is cracked on one side. I had another one that I cracked in half. Don't know what damage I would have sustained without the foam hat, but I am certainly glad I was wearing it on those two occasions. So, I take no offense in wearing a foam hat. Mine I got on sale at sierra trading post many years ago and it fits very comfy. Its blue with yellow and red, sort of like one of those hot-rods with flames on the sides. Any anti-helmet proponents would be envious of my excellent taste and looks. Style man and the Fav five would certainly approve and wear one just to walk if they saw me. Also, I like to paint and all my cyclists wear foam hats and look good. http://www.geocities.com/andresmuro/desert.html Anyways, its been raining like crazy hear in the El Pazso dessert for the last couple of days. So, I am going running instead of riding. See ya latter. Andres |
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#12
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TdF and recumbents
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#13
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TdF and recumbents
Tim McNamara wrote:
Pat writes: How would a recumbent handle the Tour? You mean, if the UCI rules permitted the use of recumbents? They'd like have some advantage on flat breakaways and time trials, but the disadvantages in sprinting and climbing would scupper them compared to regular bikes. Would the upright sprinter ever catch the recumbent breakaway so as to be able to use their greater [1] sprinting power? Another factor is that recumbents are heavier than regular bikes, although there are now some 20-22 lb recumbents (e.gg., Bacchetta) that can be bought by Joe Everedge. Gee, I know people that have Razz-Fazz lowracers that are in the 7.5 kgf (16˝ pound) range, much lighter than the Bacchetta Arrow, er Aero. That would go a long way towards improving climbing. My friend Don's titanium Bacchetta seems to work pretty good on climbs. While that bicycle is higher performance that most commercially available recumbents, it is not in the class of a Razz Fazz with a tailbox or a Velokraft NoCom. [1] Probably 1.5:1 or 2:1 based on the meager evidence. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia “Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken / She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.” |
#14
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TdF and recumbents
Hank Wirtz wrote:
On Jul 27, 8:52 am, Tim McNamara wrote: Pat writes: How would a recumbent handle the Tour? You mean, if the UCI rules permitted the use of recumbents? They'd like have some advantage on flat breakaways and time trials, but the disadvantages in sprinting and climbing would scupper them compared to regular bikes. Another factor is that recumbents are heavier than regular bikes, although there are now some 20-22 lb recumbents (e.gg., Bacchetta) that can be bought by Joe Everedge. That would go a long way towards improving climbing. My friend Don's titanium Bacchetta seems to work pretty good on climbs. I'm wondering how well they'd handle switchbacks, since all lowracers are LWB, right? Plus, having the rider closer to the ground reduces lean clearance. Every commercially produced lowracer and most homebuilt ones are short wheelbase [1]. I can only think of a few homebuilt lowracers that are long wheelbase. What limits the turning radius on many lowracers is running the chain by the front wheel for less drive train friction. This limits the turning diameter to about 20 to 30 feet, or similar to most front wheel drive subcompact cars on the market. So no problems on any road built for automobiles. Ground clearance is not an issue. On my lowracers the BB is about 46 cm above the ground, and the bike can be leaned over by hand to more than 60° from the vertical before any "ground strike". As Jobst Brandt has pointed out, if your lean angle goes much beyond 45°, you are crashing. It is uprights that typically have the clearance issues (pedal strike) with their lower bottom brackets and preferences for longer cranks than are optimum on recumbents. I think they'd be great for TTs and probably flat road stages. In the mountains, both climbing and descending (unless the descent is a straightaway), not so much. With some vertical compliance built into the frame while retaining torsional stiffness [2], passive suspension occurs which can help greatly when traversing high speed bumps. The limited sight line over obstructions is much less of an issue on a closed road that can be pre-ridden (as is the case in the TdF). As for cornering grip/speed, I see no theoretical or practical reasons which this should differ significantly from that of an upright bicycle. I will not repeat my discussion on climbing performance here that is posted elsewhere in this thread. And every time Tom uses the phrase "foam hat" I want to punch him in the neck. Not that I'm pro- or anti-helmet, it's just a jackass thing to call it. Not in the face? butbutbut, the primary component is expanded polystyrene which is commonly known as Styrofoam®, and it is worn in the same location as clothing items known as hats. Is it also not being a jackass to spew pro-bicycle alleged protective headgear propaganda that is not backed by evidence? [1] This is defined by the BB being ahead of the head tube (SWB), adjacent to the head tube (MWB) or behind the head tube (LWB). Actual wheel base length does not factor, except to distinguish compact long wheel base (CLWB) which is less than 1.5-m from LWB (1.5-m or greater). [2] Quite possible on a single tube CFRP frame, and possible to a lesser extent on metal single tube frames and only partially triangulated metal frames. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia “Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken / She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.” |
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#16
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TdF and recumbents
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 09:23:07 +0100, Pat wrote: How would a recumbent handle the Tour? Pineapples. Kiwi fruit. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia “Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken / She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.” |
#17
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TdF and recumbents
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 09:23:07 +0100, Pat
wrote: How would a recumbent handle the Tour? Dear Pat, It's common to confuse recumbency with fairings. But no one is allowed to use fairings in the Tour de France. As Scott Adams might say, no wool jumpsuits are involved: Dogbert: "Who would win if a giant moth fought a giant but modest bee in an all wool jumpsuit?" Dilbert: "Wait . . . who's wearing the jumpsuit--the giant moth or the giant bee?" Dogbert: "The bee." Dilbert: Is this just hypothetical?" http://books.google.com/books?id=erx...um=3&ct=result In 1934, a single unfaired recumbent did okay against upright teams (but was by no means overpowering) in a dozen or so one-day, fairly flat city-to-city races out of Paris. An unknown contemporary enthusiast argued that the recumbent rider, Manuel Morand, was medioc "The writer [of a letter to Mochet, the recumbent designer] states that the Velocar must be an outstanding and excellent machine, if a mediocre rider like Manuel Morand can get such good results with it! He therefore proposes creating a pro-team of good riders for the next Tour de France. He offers to take responsibility for this and for finding sponsors and other support, such as masseurs. Mochet would only have to deal with the technical aspects: to build the Velocars." Alas, no recumbent team materialized, possibly because the UCI banned recumbents when literally second-class riders like Faure on unfaired recumbents began winning track races. So far, recumbents haven't attracted enough competitive riders and fans to set up their own Tour de France for comparison. There was a shorter TDF with fewer days for women for a few years--I think that it reappeared this year. And a woman finished the 1924 Giro, though she had to have the time-cut rule waived: http://speedychix.blogspot.com/2008/...g-history.html Anyway, back to unfaired recumbents competing against unfaired uprights . . . The rider, Morand, hired by the recumbent designer, Mochet, often did well on the flats, but he was usually dropped uphill: "All the early hours [of the 1934 Paris-Angers 310 km, over 9 hours] would have been desperately monotonous but for the Spaniard Morand, who rode a recumbent bicycle, and kept us amused. Then when he was leading the field he did an easy 50 kph for several kilometres at a time. This forced his rivals to work terribly hard. Fortunately for them, he did not rub it in too much, and uphill he was generally dropped." Mochet felt that his unfaired recumbent was better, one-on-one, than an upright, but that team tactics defeated Morand: "Morand was hired at the beginning of 1934 to take part in road competitions. He was not a super champion but a good, serious and conscientious professional racer. He practised on the Velorizontal with application. He participated in about 15 pro events with distances in the order of 250 to 350 km. I believe he finished them all and in honourable places. He was all on his own with no team-mates, no following car, nothing. Given the circumstances, his performances were admirable." "The Velorizontal was clearly superior and performed better than a classic bicycle. We had believed that Morand would win a classic race quite easily. However, we had ignored the fact that a bicycle race comprises a bunch of teams. These form very fast elements. If Morand could last against a bunch over 20 to 30 km, he had against him the 50 to 100 he would have dominated individually. But acting together, they left him no chance to finish first. His determination to keep going was admirable. He demonstrated that riding a Velorizontal was easy in a bunch. Despite the hostility of all, he finished these long competitive rides honorably, and he was a great and good chap." Of course, a team of good riders _might_ have had more success than Morand on his lonesome unfaired recumbent. (As long as they weren't wearing wool jumpsuits.) More details and three photos of Morand on his unfaired recumbent: http://www.hadland.me.uk/velocar.pdf Cheers, Carl Fogel |
#18
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TdF and recumbents
Pat wrote:
How would a recumbent handle the Tour? I have no idea, but I got a ride on one of these http://www.meta-bikes.com/welcome.html and it was pretty awesome. |
#19
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TdF and recumbents
On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 21:25:01 +0200, Tosspot wrote:
Pat wrote: How would a recumbent handle the Tour? I have no idea, but I got a ride on one of these http://www.meta-bikes.com/welcome.html and it was pretty awesome. Oh well, if you're looking for the exotic... http://www.johnstone-wheelers.co.uk/killian_mic.php |
#20
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TdF and recumbents
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