The idiocy of Tom Sherman

"Bill C" wrote in message
...

I've said it before, and it's still true IMO, these folks beliefs and
actions have much more basis in Marx, Stalin, and Trotsky than they do
in Jefferson, Adams, Paine, and Franklin.

Amen brother. If they can't have socialism they'll destroy Democracy anyway.

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 15:29:16 -0700, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo.
com said in :

Do I need to point out that you can be grabbed by the navy and put on a ship
against your will at any time?

You might need to point that out, since as far as I know I can't. I
think that's one of those old chestnuts that is no longer true; we
also removed hanging for arson in a naval dockyard some years back.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

On Aug 17, 4:34*pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Tom Kunich wrote:

Hmm apparently you don't understand that the Constitution overrules
any lesser laws. Also you seem to have missed the point that after
gun control laws were voided in places like Florida, crime took a
HUGE drop. But of course you may pretend otherwise.

Having most everyone armed has also resulted in huge drops in violence
in places like Iraq.

Yeah, you're right - Iraq was a much safer place when only Saddam
Hussein was "disappearing" people literally by the thousands. It was so
much safer than today when people can defend themselves.

Iraq was a much safer place - only about 30,000 murdered under Hussein,
plus 250,000 to 500,000 casualties in the proxy war fought for the US
against Iran.

Compare to the million plus dead and 5 million refuges created by the
neo-colonial conquest of Iraq by the US.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Germany, The Soviet States, etc...werer much safer under their
leadership than under freedom too, if you don't count the governmet
actions. Iraq could be corrected quite quickly using these actions you
find so attractive.
How's disarming the folks worked out in Jamaica?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/caribbean/news/...rderlist.shtml

Jamaica 'murder capital of the world'

PJ Patterson: crime is Jamaica's most pressing problem
Crime in the Caribbean region - especially that resulting in murder -
continues to concern authorities.



http://www.davekopel.com/2a/LawRev/lrnylstk.htm

The country that I think has the most direct application for us,
however, is one that we don't have a lot in common with, and that's
Jamaica. In response to a sharply rising crime rate in Jamaica in the
early 1970s, the government imposed complete gun prohibition. In fact,
possession of a bullet meant a mandatory life sentence in prison.
There was a special gun court where people would be tried in secret
for gun possession offenses. And in conjunction with this tremendous
crackdown on guns, they also did everything else that you can imagine
Oliver North or Ross Perot doing to our Bill of Rights in your worst
nightmares. They had gun sweeps, drug sweeps, militarized law
enforcement, the government breaking into people's houses, with no
probable cause at all, to look for illegal weapons and drugs. Every
kind of oppressive measure you could want, censorship of violent
television and movies, everything you could want in terms of "let's
get really serious and crack down and get rid of all these silly
constitutional liberties that are standing in the way of rough and
tough law enforcement," they did. What happened was the crime rate and
the homicide rate dropped substantially for the first six months. They
then started to rise again, got back to their old levels, and within a
few years were far ahead of their old levels, and a few years later
were at double and triple the levels which had inspired this kind of
crackdown in the first place.

Bill C

In article , sunsetss0003
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
A. Muzi wrote:
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
On 17 Aug 2008 18:00:54 GMT, Barry Harmon
said in 54:

The crime drop is the one thing that the anti-gun forces both can't
explain and choose to ignore.

And the pro-gun forces ignore the inconvenient fact that the highest
rates of homicide are in the countries with the highest rates of gun
ownership.

How many of these militant gun owners are members of the
well-regulated militia?

What, like Chicago and DC with the oldest and most draconian bans?

We gun owners keep you free, just as the Founders knew. It's good to
live where this is a discussion.

How does one explain the existence of free societies with almost
non-existent personal gun ownership?

In the same way we explain societies with high rates of gun ownership
and much lower murder rates than the US, such as Canada. We know gun
ownership is correlated with many other phenomena, but we don't really
understand the causal relationships.

One thing is for sure -- having drug dealers and gang members roaming
the streets carrying guns isn't exactly a good thing. But how to stop
it? Unfortunately, anti-gun laws don't appear to do it.

Java

On Aug 17, 3:19 pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:


Tom, why... ? ... you insist on arguing over any point you
can find.

:-)

Tom Kunich wrote:
"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...

Would a militia (as opposed to individuals) have a need for artillery?
Does the Second Amendment allow individuals to own heavy weapons?

Do you understand what a militia is? "The term militia is commonly used
today to refer to a military force composed of ordinary citizens to
provide defense, emergency law enforcement, or paramilitary service, in
times of emergency without being paid a regular salary or committed to a
fixed term of service."

Does the National Guard have any weapons larger than a rifle?

The military is responsible for things like armor, heavy weapons etc.
The militia is only responsible for themselves and sometimes the light
weapons they would normally carry in service.

Tom, why are you trying to make it seem like the founders were complete
fools? Is that to impress people with your powers of analysis? You seem
an unusually intelligent person yet you insist on arguing over any point
you can find.

The founders were certainly not as unambiguous as they could have been
when writing the Second Amendment.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

Tom Kunich wrote:
"Bill C" wrote in message
...

I've said it before, and it's still true IMO, these folks beliefs and
actions have much more basis in Marx, Stalin, and Trotsky than they do
in Jefferson, Adams, Paine, and Franklin.

Amen brother. If they can't have socialism they'll destroy Democracy
anyway.

If you have not noticed, Democracy is in pretty poor shape in the US,
with the two party monopoly, and entry to Congress priced in the
millions of dollars.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

Tom Kunich wrote:
"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...

Iraq was a much safer place - only about 30,000 murdered under
Hussein, plus 250,000 to 500,000 casualties in the proxy war fought
for the US against Iran.

Why is it that you don't have any problems accepting those numbers?

Any more credible numbers? Those trumpeted by US pundits and politicians
in trying to justify the conquest of Iraq are about as credible as
their claims of massive Iraqi stocks of "WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION".

Compare to the million plus dead and 5 million refuges created by the
neo-colonial conquest of Iraq by the US.

And grab those as if they were gospel?

The methodology is well established. No one had any problems accepting
the same methodology for numbers killed in Rwanda or Darfur. But wait,
those killings were not done by the US/UK.

In both Iraq and Pakistan we're seeing those really wonderful "freedom
fighters" committing suicides in the middle of poor religious gatherings
murdering old men, women and children. And somehow it hasn't yet sunken
into the heads of people such as yourself what precisely we're fighting.

People resisting foreign occupation?

Of course, Kunich is only going to believe what fits his ideology.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

Bill C? wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:34 pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Tom Kunich wrote:
Hmm apparently you don't understand that the Constitution overrules
any lesser laws. Also you seem to have missed the point that after
gun control laws were voided in places like Florida, crime took a
HUGE drop. But of course you may pretend otherwise.
Having most everyone armed has also resulted in huge drops in violence
in places like Iraq.
Yeah, you're right - Iraq was a much safer place when only Saddam
Hussein was "disappearing" people literally by the thousands. It was so
much safer than today when people can defend themselves.
Iraq was a much safer place - only about 30,000 murdered under Hussein,
plus 250,000 to 500,000 casualties in the proxy war fought for the US
against Iran.

Compare to the million plus dead and 5 million refuges created by the
neo-colonial conquest of Iraq by the US.


Germany, The Soviet States, etc...werer much safer under their
leadership than under freedom too, if you don't count the governmet
actions. Iraq could be corrected quite quickly using these actions you
find so attractive.

Really? The US would need to put millions of troops on the ground to do
so. Get those draft boards organized.

How's disarming the folks worked out in Jamaica?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/caribbean/news/...rderlist.shtml

Jamaica 'murder capital of the world'

PJ Patterson: crime is Jamaica's most pressing problem
Crime in the Caribbean region - especially that resulting in murder -
continues to concern authorities.

The crime is the result of letting an elite oppress the people into dire
poverty. Ever notice how much lower violent crime rates are when poverty
is effectively eliminated?

http://www.davekopel.com/2a/LawRev/lrnylstk.htm

The country that I think has the most direct application for us,
however, is one that we don't have a lot in common with, and that's
Jamaica. In response to a sharply rising crime rate in Jamaica in the
early 1970s, the government imposed complete gun prohibition. In fact,
possession of a bullet meant a mandatory life sentence in prison.
There was a special gun court where people would be tried in secret
for gun possession offenses. And in conjunction with this tremendous
crackdown on guns, they also did everything else that you can imagine
Oliver North or Ross Perot doing to our Bill of Rights in your worst
nightmares. They had gun sweeps, drug sweeps, militarized law
enforcement, the government breaking into people's houses, with no
probable cause at all, to look for illegal weapons and drugs. Every
kind of oppressive measure you could want, censorship of violent
television and movies, everything you could want in terms of "let's
get really serious and crack down and get rid of all these silly
constitutional liberties that are standing in the way of rough and
tough law enforcement," they did. What happened was the crime rate and
the homicide rate dropped substantially for the first six months. They
then started to rise again, got back to their old levels, and within a
few years were far ahead of their old levels, and a few years later
were at double and triple the levels which had inspired this kind of
crackdown in the first place.

The Ross Perot quote casts doubt on the rest of the analysis. Ross Perot
made a fortune on no-bid government contracts, but was not more opposed
to civil rights than the run of the mill corporatist.

The above analysis also neglects to mention that this increase in
violence also coincided with the imposition of neo-liberal economic
policies.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

Tom Kunich wrote:
"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...

How does one explain the existence of free societies with almost
non-existent personal gun ownership?

Completely homogenous racial groups tend to get along a great deal
better than mixed groups.

Ah, the racial behavior expertise of Kunich.

Are not the racial problems in the US the result of centuries of racist
policies by the dominant white majority?

The guns will not help you if the government decides to come for you.
Just ask the Branch Davidians in Waco.

Why are you complaining about the acts of your pal Bill Clinton?

Dude, I never voted or supported Bill Clinton. By his actions, Clinton
was a (small c) conservative president.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”