The idiocy of Tom Sherman

In article ,
A Muzi wrote:

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
On 17 Aug 2008 18:00:54 GMT, Barry Harmon
said in 54:

The crime drop is the one thing that the anti-gun forces both
can't explain and choose to ignore.

And the pro-gun forces ignore the inconvenient fact that the
highest rates of homicide are in the countries with the highest
rates of gun ownership.

How many of these militant gun owners are members of the
well-regulated militia?

What, like Chicago and DC with the oldest and most draconian bans?

We gun owners keep you free, just as the Founders knew. It's good to
live where this is a discussion.

It is good to live where this discussion among others can be had, but it
is rather arrogant for gun owners to claim that they are what is keeping
me free. The only freedom of mine that gun owners have protected is the
right to own a gun, in which I have no interest.

Locally at least, gun owners have been a greater danger to the right to
continue breathing than they have been defenders of freedom. There have
been zero reported successful self-defenses by permitted gun owners in
Minnesota since the conceal and carry law was passed in 2003. There has
been no decrease in the number of murders, typically 45-55 per year in
Minneapolis; the overall crime rate has in Minneapolis dropped slightly
thus far in 2008 versus 2007 but this appears to be related to various
law enforcement initiatives and not to the efforts of law-abiding gun
owners. There has been a spate of murders by gunshot this summer.

Unfortunately too many gun owners just parrot the empty rhetoric of the
NRA, long on assumptions and short of facts (just as too many anti-gun
people also parrot the empty rhetoric of the other side).

A. Muzi wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:
Does the National Guard have any weapons larger than a rifle?

YGBSM. You should get out more.

I hear the Wisconsin 128th on their training flights.

There are enough A10s at Truax to destroy this city.
not even talking F16s. Sheesh.

It was a rhetorical question for TK, who said militia would only have
light weapons.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
On Aug 17, 6:09 pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
"Bill C" wrote in message
...
I've said it before, and it's still true IMO, these folks beliefs and
actions have much more basis in Marx, Stalin, and Trotsky than they do
in Jefferson, Adams, Paine, and Franklin.
Amen brother. If they can't have socialism they'll destroy Democracy
anyway.
If you have not noticed, Democracy is in pretty poor shape in the US,
with the two party monopoly,...

lol. I think one party would make it a monopoly, if "mono-" means
anything at all.

But if you're saying they are merely brands of the same thing, well...

Well, both parties feed at the same campaign contribution trough.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

Bill C? wrote:
On Aug 17, 7:40 pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Bill C? wrote:
On Aug 17, 7:19 pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Bill C? wrote:
On Aug 17, 4:34 pm, Tom Sherman
wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:
"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Tom Kunich wrote:
Hmm apparently you don't understand that the Constitution overrules
any lesser laws. Also you seem to have missed the point that after
gun control laws were voided in places like Florida, crime took a
HUGE drop. But of course you may pretend otherwise.
Having most everyone armed has also resulted in huge drops in violence
in places like Iraq.
Yeah, you're right - Iraq was a much safer place when only Saddam
Hussein was "disappearing" people literally by the thousands. It was so
much safer than today when people can defend themselves.
Iraq was a much safer place - only about 30,000 murdered under Hussein,
plus 250,000 to 500,000 casualties in the proxy war fought for the US
against Iran.
Compare to the million plus dead and 5 million refuges created by the
neo-colonial conquest of Iraq by the US.
Germany, The Soviet States, etc...werer much safer under their
leadership than under freedom too, if you don't count the governmet
actions. Iraq could be corrected quite quickly using these actions you
find so attractive.
Really? The US would need to put millions of troops on the ground to do
so. Get those draft boards organized.
Nope the Shiites would be happy to exterminate anyone objecting, it
worked for Hussein using the minority Sunnis. Don't let reality
interfere, even when you cited it.
Yeah, and the Shia would then by happy to be US puppets. Only in neo-con
fantasy world. The real world works a bit differently.

We were discussing lack of crime. That ia a hallmark of vicious
authoritarian governments. Those you love were examples of those.
Freedom is messy. I'll take messy freedom any day:

Who said I love those governments?

Can Bill C? debate honestly, or does he just throw out falsehoods like a
talk show host?

'Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither' -
Benjamin Franklin

Gee, but the political right in the US has been advocating restrictions
on many freedoms in the name of security for the last 6+ years.

How's disarming the folks worked out in Jamaica?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/caribbean/news/...3_murderlist.s...
Jamaica 'murder capital of the world'
PJ Patterson: crime is Jamaica's most pressing problem
Crime in the Caribbean region - especially that resulting in murder -
continues to concern authorities.
The crime is the result of letting an elite oppress the people into dire
poverty. Ever notice how much lower violent crime rates are when poverty
is effectively eliminated?
Yep, once again we have the Stalinist approach and psycho liberal
answer. Typical. Noone is responsible for their behavior, and no Stae
excess is unexcuseable as long as it's done in the name of the
"people".
Zeig Heil Mein Freund! Power to the Proletariat!
Ever notice how right-wingers trot out the strawmen and red herrings at
the first sign of challenge to their ideology based conclusions? The
above is too silly to deserve any further response.

Because you can't refute it in any intellectually honest way.

Bill C? commenting on intellectually honest debating? There is an irony!

Freedom as long as it's controlled by the "peoples" government.
Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, East Germany, Cambodia, Tibet all salute
and support you for supporting their enslavement!
Apparently Bill C? is incapable of a reasoned argument, so he trots out
all the old "Red Scare" propaganda.

What a crock of ****. HRW and Amnesty have nicely documented their
actions, and the continuing actions in places like Vietnam, Tibet, and
China, but you don't want to discuss those records.

What does that have to do with the discussion at hand? Get a clue on
what a rational debate is, Bill C.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

Tom Kunich wrote:
"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...

Yeah, and the Shia would then by happy to be US puppets. Only in
neo-con fantasy world. The real world works a bit differently.

After all, they've always been so ready to follow the US lead.

Only using the US military to do their work for them.

Ever notice how right-wingers trot out the strawmen and red herrings
at the first sign of challenge to their ideology based conclusions?

Excuse me but exactly what is that you just did?

No.

Freedom as long as it's controlled by the "peoples" government.
Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, East Germany, Cambodia, Tibet all salute
and support you for supporting their enslavement!

Apparently Bill C? is incapable of a reasoned argument, so he trots
out all the old "Red Scare" propaganda.

Somehow history is on Bill's side and a long way off of yours.

Bill C. is mostly claiming false positions of others, which is dishonest.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

Tom Kunich wrote:
"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Tom Kunich wrote:
"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...

How does one explain the existence of free societies with almost
non-existent personal gun ownership?

Completely homogenous racial groups tend to get along a great deal
better than mixed groups.

Ah, the racial behavior expertise of Kunich.

My I hadn't considered that. So I guess you don't have any way to refute
my statement.

Unless you believe that there are inherent racial behavioral
differences, the only problems are causes by illogical and immoral
racism. In the US, there is a well documented history of white
supremacist racism, that only legally ended a few decades ago.

Are not the racial problems in the US the result of centuries of
racist policies by the dominant white majority?

Here's a clue - my father and his brothers couldn't attend public school
because they were Slav. Luckily that went away before my youngest aunt
got to high school age. You don't see Slav's fighting society. Oh, and
in case you weren't aware of it, the word "slave" comes from the name of
my race. Unlike blacks we weren't enslaved for a hundred years. It was
more like a thousand years.

Not in the US.

Chinese and Japanese were sorely treated in the USA and yet they are
some of the highest achievers with the lowest crime rates.

They were not brought here as slaves (totally destroying culture) and as
heavily discriminated against as people of black African descent. Duh.

So maybe you'd like to explain the "racial problem" in the USA?

Simple - a culture created by slavery and perpetuated by discrimination
that continues to this day. When the rules of society are rigged against
a group, many of the members of that group no longer feel the need to be
bound by ANY of the rules. If Kunich actually got out and met some
people he would realize this.

Dude, I never voted or supported Bill Clinton. By his actions, Clinton
was a (small c) conservative president.

Uh, THAT'S why he instituted so many socialist policies! I had wondered
about that.

Socialist policies by Clinton? What planet have you been on? Kunich is
insane if he thinks Bill Clinton was a socialist or promoted socialist
policies.

Under Clinton, the social safety net was cut further than Reagan or Bush
I attempted, NAFTA was passed, the financial industry was deregulated, etc.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
A. Muzi wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote:
Does the National Guard have any weapons larger than a rifle?

YGBSM. You should get out more.

I hear the Wisconsin 128th on their training flights.

There are enough A10s at Truax to destroy this city.
not even talking F16s. Sheesh.

It was a rhetorical question for TK, who said militia would only have
light weapons.

Psst - National Guard is not "militia".

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Tom Kunich wrote:
Unless you believe that there are inherent racial behavioral differences,
the only problems are causes by illogical and immoral racism. In the US,
there is a well documented history of white supremacist racism, that only
legally ended a few decades ago.

So you're saying the Chinese don't have different reaction patterns because
of the society they grew up in compared to people of East Anglia? Japanese
don't react differently to some stimuli than Africans?

Unlike blacks, Slavs weren't enslaved for a hundred years. It was more
like a thousand years.

Not in the US.

Well, that makes a world of difference doesn't it?

Chinese and Japanese were sorely treated in the USA and yet they are some
of the highest achievers with the lowest crime rates.

They were not brought here as slaves (totally destroying culture) and as
heavily discriminated against as people of black African descent. Duh.

Psst - Americans bought slaves - they were captured almost entirely by OTHER
black tribes and sold to Arabs. By the way - black slaves were sold ALL over
the world. They were treated the best here.

If Kunich actually got out and met some people he would realize this.

I was born in and grew up in an almost entirely black neighborhood in
Oakland. But I'm sure that you've had a much more instructive bringing up.

I've been enjoying this thread and - being a European - learning
about the US Constitution and its interpretations. We have a complete
gun ban in the UK, but what we are seeing is an epidemic of knife
crime instead. This may be quite unrelated since it appears to be
teenagers who are using knives and adults who are using guns. As has
been said regarding Jamaica etc. there may be multiple factors at work
and it is hard to make the correct attributions.

Andy

What does that have to do with the discussion at hand? Get a clue on
what a rational debate is, Bill C.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"In our country are evangelists and
zealots of many different political,
economic and religious persuasions
whose fanatical conviction is that
all thought is divinely classified
into two kinds -- that which is
their own and that which is false
and dangerous."
-- Justice Robert H. Jackson
(1892-1954), U. S. Supreme Court Justice

You are NO different than the neocon nutcases, just a different
flavor of authoritarian true believer.
Bill C