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  #71  
Old August 2nd 13, 07:56 PM posted to uk.media.tv.misc,uk.rec.cycling,uk.rec.driving
Bertie Wooster[_2_]
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Posts: 2,958
Default Routemasters (again)

On Fri, 2 Aug 2013 17:12:02 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"JNugent" wrote in message
...
On 02/08/2013 11:12, Bertie Wooster wrote:

From what you appear to be saying, so long as the lights on the
pedestrian crossing were green for the cyclist, and the cyclist wasn't
engaged in wanton or furious cycling, no offence occurred (section 170
of the 1988 road traffic act does not apply to cyclists).


Is a bicycle not a "mechanically propelled vehicle" for the purposes of the
act?


No. A bicycle is a human powered machine.

Presumably there are other more general obligations that apply to
anyone who injures someone else, irrespective of the circumstances.


Morally, certainly. I'm unsure of the legal situation.

For what it is worth, I think that the cyclist's actions in fleeing
the scene of the crash is contemptible.

Presumably the cyclist would still be guilty offences relating to failure to
stop at the crossing to let pedestrians cross (and relating to causing
injury if anyone was injured) - *please* tell me that cyclists are not
exempt from this requirement too (!)


If the light is green, I still feel that the cyclist should have
stopped.

Years ago I witnessed a cyclist who injured a pedestrian who was already on
a zebra crossing: I was walking towards the crossing and heard someone
behind me yell "Out of my f**cking way" so I turned round and saw a cyclist
overtake two cars that had stopped to give way to a woman pushing a pram on
the crossing. Again yelling "Out of my f**cking way, he swerved between the
offside of the leading car and the traffic island in the centre of the road,
and clipped the woman as she scurried into the central island. Having come
off his bike he skidded across the road and narrowly avoided going under the
wheels of an oncoming HGV.

He tried to run off but my mate who was built like a brick outhouse
restrained him and "persuaded" him to wait until the police arrived. There
were a lot of witnesses so the police moved most of us on and didn't take
statements, but my mate who did give a statement said the cyclist was
ranting and raving about how the pedestrian and the cars had got in his way,
and was livid that the police didn't release him as the innocent party.
Utterly bewildering that a tiny minority of cyclists think that they have
priority over everyone else on the road, and give the vast majority a bad
name. I never heard how it ended, but I presume he was convicted - hard to
see how he could not be in the circumstances and with so many witnesses.

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  #72  
Old August 2nd 13, 07:56 PM posted to uk.media.tv.misc,uk.rec.cycling,uk.rec.driving
Bertie Wooster[_2_]
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Posts: 2,958
Default Routemasters (again)

On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 18:45:01 +0100, Phil W Lee
wrote:

Bertie Wooster considered Fri, 02 Aug 2013
11:12:20 +0100 the perfect time to write:

On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 07:50:58 +0100, JNugent
wrote:

ITYF that the car driver is still expected to anticipate such hazards

I will *not* "find" that, for the simple and obvious reason that it is
not true. You are mistaking the general duty to react in amelioration
(where possible) of other peoples' bad behaviour as a duty to ensure or
guarantee that the bad behaviour cannot have any negative effects on the
person behaving badly.

That people may act negligently does not oblige others to act as if the
negligence is permanently under way. Everyone has a right to expect
everyone else to obey the rules insofar as they might impinge on one's
own rights.


If that is the case, what do you make of the cyclist who, as described
in another thread, mowed down a young child on a pedestrian crossing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-23492094

From what you appear to be saying, so long as the lights on the
pedestrian crossing were green for the cyclist, and the cyclist wasn't
engaged in wanton or furious cycling, no offence occurred (section 170
of the 1988 road traffic act does not apply to cyclists).


The signals displayed by a traffic light mean stop, stop, stop, and
give way.
There is no Go, as even a green only allows you to proceed if the way
is clear.


That is what I would expect.
  #73  
Old August 2nd 13, 08:52 PM posted to uk.media.tv.misc,uk.rec.cycling,uk.rec.driving
Nick Finnigan
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Posts: 531
Default Routemasters (again)

On 02/08/2013 18:58, Max Demian wrote:

My understanding is that jaywalking refers to reckless crossing of the road
by a pedestrian, and wouldn't apply to crossing against a red man if there
is no traffic in sight.


It seems to in Ontario
http://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/stat/rso-1990-c-h8/latest/rso-1990-c-h8.html

  #74  
Old August 2nd 13, 09:58 PM posted to uk.media.tv.misc,uk.rec.cycling,uk.rec.driving
Judith[_4_]
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Posts: 11,000
Default Routemasters (again)

On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 19:51:14 +0100, JNugent wrote:

snip


Cyclists, on the same "had", are also only permitted to move through a
green light if the way is clear.

Aren't they?



Are you sure?

I see so many cyclists doing otherwise, that I think you may not be correct on
this one.

  #75  
Old August 2nd 13, 10:02 PM posted to uk.media.tv.misc,uk.rec.cycling,uk.rec.driving
Judith[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,000
Default Routemasters (again)

On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 19:48:42 +0100, Bertie Wooster
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 17:40:29 +0100, JNugent
wrote:

On 02/08/2013 16:08, Bertie Wooster wrote:
On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 14:54:20 +0100, JNugent
wrote:

On 02/08/2013 11:12, Bertie Wooster wrote:

JNugent wrote:

ITYF that the car driver is still expected to anticipate such hazards

I will *not* "find" that, for the simple and obvious reason that it is
not true. You are mistaking the general duty to react in amelioration
(where possible) of other peoples' bad behaviour as a duty to ensure or
guarantee that the bad behaviour cannot have any negative effects on the
person behaving badly.

That people may act negligently does not oblige others to act as if the
negligence is permanently under way. Everyone has a right to expect
everyone else to obey the rules insofar as they might impinge on one's
own rights.

If that is the case, what do you make of the cyclist who, as described
in another thread, mowed down a young child on a pedestrian crossing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-23492094

From what you appear to be saying, so long as the lights on the
pedestrian crossing were green for the cyclist, and the cyclist wasn't
engaged in wanton or furious cycling, no offence occurred (section 170
of the 1988 road traffic act does not apply to cyclists).

Was it a pelicon, or a zebra, crossing?

Please be pinpoint clear in your answer (one patent possibility being
that you don't know the answer, which need not be your fault) and be
aware that I may have a supplementary question upon the answer to which
any response to your question would hang.

Pelicon, he
http://goo.gl/maps/bMJI8
http://goo.gl/maps/1XfpP
http://goo.gl/maps/CPhwL


Supplementary question(s):

1. Was the light red for the carriageway traffic when the collision
occurred?

Choose from:

(a) Yes
(b) No
(c) I don't know.

2. If the answer to (1) is (b), could the cyclist nevertheless has
avoided huitting and injuring the pedestrian using the crossing (whether
the pedestrian was using the crossing properly or not)?

Choose from:

(a) Yes
(b) No
(c) I don't know.


c, c.




Well what a surprise.


  #76  
Old August 2nd 13, 10:05 PM posted to uk.media.tv.misc,uk.rec.cycling,uk.rec.driving
Judith[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,000
Default Routemasters (again)

On Fri, 2 Aug 2013 17:12:02 +0100, "NY" wrote:

snip


Utterly bewildering that a tiny minority of cyclists think that they have
priority over everyone else on the road, and give the vast majority a bad
name.



Spot on

Porky Chapman, Anchor Lee, Tom Crispin, Justipoo's, Numb Nuts Mason
..............

The list goes on, and on, and .........

  #77  
Old August 2nd 13, 10:43 PM posted to uk.media.tv.misc,uk.rec.cycling,uk.rec.driving
NY
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 34
Default Routemasters (again)

"Judith" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Aug 2013 17:12:02 +0100, "NY" wrote:

snip


Utterly bewildering that a tiny minority of cyclists think that they have
priority over everyone else on the road, and give the vast majority a bad
name.



Spot on

Porky Chapman, Anchor Lee, Tom Crispin, Justipoo's, Numb Nuts Mason
.............

The list goes on, and on, and .........


It was scary to watch the 5th (last) episode of Route Masters (about
London's roads) on BBC1 a couple of weeks ago and see how cyclists seem to
think that the road laws should treat them differently from engine-powered
vehicles. Cyclists were weaving in and out of other traffic, overtaking
first one one side then on the other, right in front of the eyes of police
officers, and only the worst offenders were even mentioned, never mind
stopped, instead of staying in the bus/bike lane (where they are relatively
safe because cars must not use it).

Maybe I'm weird in that I will not do anything as a cyclist which would get
me prosecuted if I did it as a car driver.

  #78  
Old August 2nd 13, 10:46 PM posted to uk.media.tv.misc,uk.rec.cycling,uk.rec.driving
Bertie Wooster[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,958
Default Routemasters (again)

On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 22:02:23 +0100, Judith
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 19:48:42 +0100, Bertie Wooster
wrote:

On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 17:40:29 +0100, JNugent
wrote:

On 02/08/2013 16:08, Bertie Wooster wrote:
On Fri, 02 Aug 2013 14:54:20 +0100, JNugent
wrote:

On 02/08/2013 11:12, Bertie Wooster wrote:

JNugent wrote:

ITYF that the car driver is still expected to anticipate such hazards

I will *not* "find" that, for the simple and obvious reason that it is
not true. You are mistaking the general duty to react in amelioration
(where possible) of other peoples' bad behaviour as a duty to ensure or
guarantee that the bad behaviour cannot have any negative effects on the
person behaving badly.

That people may act negligently does not oblige others to act as if the
negligence is permanently under way. Everyone has a right to expect
everyone else to obey the rules insofar as they might impinge on one's
own rights.

If that is the case, what do you make of the cyclist who, as described
in another thread, mowed down a young child on a pedestrian crossing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-23492094

From what you appear to be saying, so long as the lights on the
pedestrian crossing were green for the cyclist, and the cyclist wasn't
engaged in wanton or furious cycling, no offence occurred (section 170
of the 1988 road traffic act does not apply to cyclists).

Was it a pelicon, or a zebra, crossing?

Please be pinpoint clear in your answer (one patent possibility being
that you don't know the answer, which need not be your fault) and be
aware that I may have a supplementary question upon the answer to which
any response to your question would hang.

Pelicon, he
http://goo.gl/maps/bMJI8
http://goo.gl/maps/1XfpP
http://goo.gl/maps/CPhwL

Supplementary question(s):

1. Was the light red for the carriageway traffic when the collision
occurred?

Choose from:

(a) Yes
(b) No
(c) I don't know.

2. If the answer to (1) is (b), could the cyclist nevertheless has
avoided huitting and injuring the pedestrian using the crossing (whether
the pedestrian was using the crossing properly or not)?

Choose from:

(a) Yes
(b) No
(c) I don't know.


c, c.




Well what a surprise.


It shouldn't be... I'd already said as much.
  #79  
Old August 2nd 13, 11:16 PM posted to uk.media.tv.misc,uk.rec.cycling,uk.rec.driving
Max Demian
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default Routemasters (again)

"JNugent" wrote in message
...

The signals displayed by a traffic light mean stop, stop, stop, and
give way.
There is no Go, as even a green only allows you to proceed if the way
is clear.


Can you give the Highway Code reference (page number, etc) for that,
please?


Well it must be against some law to run someone over deliberately.

--
Max Demian


  #80  
Old August 2nd 13, 11:41 PM posted to uk.media.tv.misc,uk.rec.cycling,uk.rec.driving
jnugent
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,574
Default Routemasters (again)

On 02/08/2013 23:16, Max Demian wrote:
"JNugent" wrote in message
...

The signals displayed by a traffic light mean stop, stop, stop, and
give way.
There is no Go, as even a green only allows you to proceed if the way
is clear.


Can you give the Highway Code reference (page number, etc) for that,
please?


Well it must be against some law to run someone over deliberately.


I was referring to Lee LJ's claim that there are three traffic light
phases ("stop / stop / stop / give way" as he put it).

Your unhelpful snip has disguised that fact.

Have *you* any idea of the HC reference for his claim?


 




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