#11
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Planing
On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 11:31:17 AM UTC-8, wrote:
On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 12:30:54 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote: Axel That Basso brazed joint analysis is not correct at all. Either there was a communication problem or he is seriously ill informed about lugged bicycle frames. Ok, edify me. AFAIK, the brazing doesn't give way, at least based on my experience having crumpled the front-end of a custom steel frame hitting the side of a car that right hooked me. I had some great forks with a Cinelli semi-sloping cast crown that I drove right into a garage door header on a roof rack. The tubes bent and broke below the crown internal plug. The lugged joints in both cases were visually unaffected, but the frame was wrecked. Assuming Basso doesn't use tin/lead solder, I would expect the tube to buckle at the butt before the joint gave up. This is a popular wall-impact result: https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...161feb5564.jpg -- Jay Beattie. |
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#12
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Planing
On 2/14/2021 7:08 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 11:31:17 AM UTC-8, wrote: On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 12:30:54 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote: Axel That Basso brazed joint analysis is not correct at all. Either there was a communication problem or he is seriously ill informed about lugged bicycle frames. Ok, edify me. AFAIK, the brazing doesn't give way, at least based on my experience having crumpled the front-end of a custom steel frame hitting the side of a car that right hooked me. I had some great forks with a Cinelli semi-sloping cast crown that I drove right into a garage door header on a roof rack. The tubes bent and broke below the crown internal plug. The lugged joints in both cases were visually unaffected, but the frame was wrecked. Assuming Basso doesn't use tin/lead solder, I would expect the tube to buckle at the butt before the joint gave up. This is a popular wall-impact result: https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...161feb5564.jpg -- Jay Beattie. +1 As observed, the old maxim that a brazed sleeved joint is stronger than the tube is usually true in practice. Are there braze errors? Yep, but not as frequent as crash-damaged tubes. Basso is at least in the top half of Italians for braze QC. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
#13
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#14
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Planing
On Sun, 14 Feb 2021 17:08:05 -0800 (PST), jbeattie
wrote: On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 11:31:17 AM UTC-8, wrote: On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 12:30:54 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote: Axel That Basso brazed joint analysis is not correct at all. Either there was a communication problem or he is seriously ill informed about lugged bicycle frames. Ok, edify me. AFAIK, the brazing doesn't give way, at least based on my experience having crumpled the front-end of a custom steel frame hitting the side of a car that right hooked me. I had some great forks with a Cinelli semi-sloping cast crown that I drove right into a garage door header on a roof rack. The tubes bent and broke below the crown internal plug. The lugged joints in both cases were visually unaffected, but the frame was wrecked. Assuming Basso doesn't use tin/lead solder, I would expect the tube to buckle at the butt before the joint gave up. This is a popular wall-impact result: https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...161feb5564.jpg -- Jay Beattie. https://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/...ed-joints.aspx The Harris Products Group who make "silver solder" among other products state that a proper silver soldered joint can be over 70,000 PSI in strength. Assume a one inch O.D. tube with a lap joint of 1/2 inches. the strength of the joint would be in the neighborhood of 100,000 lbs. -- Cheers, John B. |
#15
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Planing
On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 7:13:57 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/14/2021 7:08 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 11:31:17 AM UTC-8, wrote: On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 12:30:54 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote: Axel That Basso brazed joint analysis is not correct at all. Either there was a communication problem or he is seriously ill informed about lugged bicycle frames. Ok, edify me. AFAIK, the brazing doesn't give way, at least based on my experience having crumpled the front-end of a custom steel frame hitting the side of a car that right hooked me. I had some great forks with a Cinelli semi-sloping cast crown that I drove right into a garage door header on a roof rack. The tubes bent and broke below the crown internal plug. The lugged joints in both cases were visually unaffected, but the frame was wrecked. Assuming Basso doesn't use tin/lead solder, I would expect the tube to buckle at the butt before the joint gave up. This is a popular wall-impact result: https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...161feb5564.jpg -- Jay Beattie. +1 As observed, the old maxim that a brazed sleeved joint is stronger than the tube is usually true in practice. Are there braze errors? Yep, but not as frequent as crash-damaged tubes. Basso is at least in the top half of Italians for braze QC. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 I have a crumpled up fillet brazed frame from a car/bike accident. Me on the bike. Fillet joints are all perfect. Tubes crumpled like a toilet paper tube or torn apart. Don Walker custom track frame. |
#16
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Planing
On Sunday, February 14, 2021 at 8:13:57 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/14/2021 7:08 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 11:31:17 AM UTC-8, wrote: On Saturday, February 13, 2021 at 12:30:54 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote: Axel That Basso brazed joint analysis is not correct at all. Either there was a communication problem or he is seriously ill informed about lugged bicycle frames. Ok, edify me. AFAIK, the brazing doesn't give way, at least based on my experience having crumpled the front-end of a custom steel frame hitting the side of a car that right hooked me. I had some great forks with a Cinelli semi-sloping cast crown that I drove right into a garage door header on a roof rack. The tubes bent and broke below the crown internal plug. The lugged joints in both cases were visually unaffected, but the frame was wrecked. Assuming Basso doesn't use tin/lead solder, I would expect the tube to buckle at the butt before the joint gave up. This is a popular wall-impact result: https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...161feb5564.jpg -- Jay Beattie. +1 As observed, the old maxim that a brazed sleeved joint is stronger than the tube is usually true in practice. Are there braze errors? Yep, but not as frequent as crash-damaged tubes. Basso is at least in the top half of Italians for braze QC. -- There may have been a language barrier as the frame builder was an older Portuguese immigrant (nice guy, his son and I were on the same team for a bit). I distinctly remember him saying the brazing was done with a soft solder, though. Still, that was over 30 years ago. Some memories fade and distort.. |
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