Flashing lights cause accidents -- police experience

On Feb 15, 7:54*pm, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:
Per Andre Jute:

Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
an apparently very experienced police instructor.
http://www.policedriving.com/article145.htm

In a local newspaper article last *year a state police officer
characterized lights on a vehicle that is parked on the shoulder
as "drunk magnets".
--
PeteCresswell

This guy I refer to distinguishes between ineffective/
counterproductive lights and effective lights. He says that the mess
of flashing blue, red and white lights are, among other things, drunk
magnets, but amber lights work; as evidence he cites falling numbers
of secondary roadside accidents to police and emergency vehicles when
the red/white/blue are switched off and only the amber remains.

In short, red, white and blue bad, amber good.

Andre Jute
I once met a girl called Amber. On a train.

On 16 Feb, 02:57, Andre Jute wrote:
On Feb 15, 7:54*pm, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Per Andre Jute:

Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
an apparently very experienced police instructor.
http://www.policedriving.com/article145.htm

In a local newspaper article last *year a state police officer
characterized lights on a vehicle that is parked on the shoulder
as "drunk magnets".
--
PeteCresswell

This guy I refer to distinguishes between ineffective/
counterproductive lights and effective lights. He says that the mess
of flashing blue, red and white lights are, among other things, drunk
magnets, but amber lights work; as evidence he cites falling numbers
of secondary roadside accidents to police and emergency vehicles when
the red/white/blue are switched off and only the amber remains.

In short, red, white and blue bad, amber good.

Well they have been used as "hazard warning lights" for a long time.

Hi,

Andre Jute wrote:
(Full quote removed)
Your point of view is very clear, Bernard. I'm disappointed to hear
the German authorities are no more accomplished at arranging safe
cycling than my own...

As if they even tried - they invented the bike lanes some time during
the last millenium, which made riding bikes more dangerous...

1. The hunter instinct you mention (thanks for bringing it up) is
indeed attracted to a blinking (moving) part of the landscape first.

Right, so people keep looking at your flash lights and since most people
tend to drive / ride / walk where they look, they might actually hit you?

2. It is well known in psychology that the best light to attract
attention is an amber light and the more so if it blinks.

Amber blinking lights are used (a) as turning indicator or (b) as
emergency indicator. Many people here confuse them with parking lights
(when parking illegally), but I'm not sure whether that indicates their
state of mind or rather just the blankness of their mind...

4. I conclude that red steady lights for legal purposes and to
identify the rear of the bicycle, plus steady white lights ditto for
the front and of course to light up the road (now that dynamo LED
lights actually do perform that purpose adequately) are good,
especially if they are backed up by flashing amber lights that shout,
Look at me; I'm dangerous to your blunt instrument's panel- and paint-
work, to your driving license, to your continued freedom (if the
courts should get real), to your wealth, and to your conscience (if
you have one).

Your argument will backfire - at least in Germany. Someone at court will
have your lights analyzed, will find out that your lights don't conform
with the legal requirements (Exactly one white front light, exactly one
red rear light) and then you take all the (legal) blame. Check your
local requirements!

As for the rest, I used to have my customized light, which had six LEDs
built in, five of them steady (one with capacitor) and one with a
blinking circuit. You didn't see the blinking while the others were on,
the light was just a bit "unsteady", but the blinking light kept on
blinking for about two hours after the dynamo stopped working (while
riding home in a rainy night). This light was purely for backup - and
that's what it did. But with a modern hub dynamo, there's no longer any
necessity for it.

Yesterday I had a cyclist with a flashing rear light in front of me. The
guy was quite crazy, with lots of extra reflectors all over his bike.
But due to the blinking light, I didn't know whether he was further off
or closer than he seemed to be - apart from that it was extremely
annoying, because it disturbed my vision - with my eyes constantly
trying to adjust between bright and dark. If you intend to keep your
flashers, please don't mind my not riding near you.

5. Too much of the debate, especially in the States, is conducted as
if the sole responsibility for the cyclist's safety lies with the
automobilist. Yet we're all, except for me, car drivers as well as

No, I'd rather see the automobile as a potentially lethal weapon - cars
kill lots of people all over the world. Adding the fact that (in urban
areas) the car traffic is often more jammed than running, I'd say that
the concept of "car traffic" has proven itself being wrong. So I do
suggest stricter traffic regulation (e.g. lower speed limits for cars),
which would have the main effects:
* traffic is less dangerous (if the restrictions are enforced)
* cycling will be more attractive (the car's speed advantage is reduced)
* people need to start to see that cars are dangerous (not the cyclists
nor the pedestrians nor the children)...

As for your "cyclist is responsible" - I do support your argument as far
that the cyclist is responsible to have working lights, to use common
sense while cycling and to keep to the basic traffic rules (stop on red
light, ...).

If the cyclist learns to cycle well (e.g. vehicular cycling), he/she
should be relatively safe while cycling. It really does depend on the
behaviour of the cyclist - and I do see a lot of "stupid" cyclists, some
of who have little (if any) control over their bike, run red lights,
don't look where they're going or just cycle without lights on the
sidewalk - at top speed...

Once the cyclist behaves well, he/she is very likely to not have an
accident - but then, remember what I said about mandatory bike lanes?

6. Wherever this balance of responsibility lies, it should be clear by
now g that I think flashing lights help, and know that flashing
amber lights front and rear are superior to rear red and front white
flashing lights.

Basically it's a question of "warfare" - if cars have brighter lights,
cyclists want that, too. Then we start with daytime running lights
(which is pretty common by now) and the "german AAA" starts equipping
children with idiotic reflective vests. Actually they (more or less)
demand that children do not walk to school - but do you want to punish
children? Just to allow car drivers to speed? This is crazy - did you
know that a sinificant number of children who have serious accidents sit
in their parents' car while having these accidents? So, shouldn't we
punish cars (- lethal weapon) instead of the children (for whom not
being able to visit a friend may be "real" punishment!)?

As for cycling lights, get a good dynamo-driven bike light (these are
quite good). Check your regulations (and if allowed, mount a second
headlight if you want). But please, don't come near me with flashing
lights on a bike.

Actually, most of the people I do see with flashing bike lights would be
better off with some basic lessons in riding a bike or with some common
sense (that surely does not apply to you, but to many riders I do see).

You see, recently someone with a bike helmet was in front of me. He
didn't look where he was going, cycled on the wrong side of the street
and I finally saw him running a red light. He probably thought that he
was safe, because he was wearing a helmet (which he payed money for).
So, my experience is that people like to "buy safety" - but then they
take unnecessary risks in compensation.

Sure, buying "more" lights may gain you more safety, but does it really
make you safer or do you just /feel/ safer?

Ciao...

PS: please don't full-quote again, my newsreader don't like that ;-)

Andre Jute wrote:

I knew about amber lights already -- every well-trained psychologist
knows; you'll remember I searched for amber flashing lights and found
none available to me. (I tried to order some from a police supplier
who refused to supply me because i wasn't the police! I noticed he
since went out of business.)

I use an amber xenon strobe with my 12V lighting system.

See
"http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/STROBE-3A/AMBER-XENON-FLASHER/-/1.html".
Look at the reviews--apparently I'm not the only one using it on a bicycle!

Yes, amber is the best choice, but good luck finding one. Remember the
old Belt Beacon?

For an AA powered amber LED light look at
"http://www.lightsforalloccasions.com/Ultra-Bright-LED-Beacon-battery-operatedJack-AMBER-410.aspx"

On 16 Feb, 16:25, Phil W Lee phil(at)lee-family(dot)me(dot)uk wrote:
Bernhard Agthe considered Tue, 16 Feb 2010
11:18:58 +0100 the perfect time to write:



Hi,

Andre Jute wrote:
(Full quote removed)
Your point of view is very clear, Bernard. I'm disappointed to hear
the German authorities are no more accomplished at arranging safe
cycling than my own...

As if they even tried - they invented the bike lanes some time during
the last millenium, which made riding bikes more dangerous...

1. The hunter instinct you mention (thanks for bringing it up) is
indeed attracted to a blinking (moving) part of the landscape first.

Right, so people keep looking at your flash lights and since most people
tend to drive / ride / walk where they look, they might actually hit you?

1st lesson in motor racing is never to watch the guy in front
crashing. . .

2. It is well known in psychology that the best light to attract
attention is an amber light and the more so if it blinks.

Amber blinking lights are used (a) as turning indicator or (b) as
emergency indicator. Many people here confuse them with parking lights
(when parking illegally), but I'm not sure whether that indicates their
state of mind or rather just the blankness of their mind...

Yeah, we get that here too - illegal parking markers.

4. I conclude that red steady lights for legal purposes and to
identify the rear of the bicycle, plus steady white lights ditto for
the front and of course to light up the road (now that dynamo LED
lights actually do perform that purpose adequately) are good,
especially if they are backed up by flashing amber lights that shout,
Look at me; I'm dangerous to your blunt instrument's panel- and paint-
work, to your driving license, to your continued freedom (if the
courts should get real), to your wealth, and to your conscience (if
you have one).

Your argument will backfire - at least in Germany. Someone at court will
have your lights analyzed, will find out that your lights don't conform
with the legal requirements (Exactly one white front light, exactly one
red rear light) and then you take all the (legal) blame. Check your
local requirements!

Is Germany not a party to the European convention allowing the use of
equipment legal in one EU country to be used in another?
I know I can use StVZO approved lights here in the UK as a legal
alternative to BS approved ones, and understood that it was a
requirement of European legislation that members recognised each
other's standards in this way.

And I've never heard of tourists being advised to change lights when
they cross borders.

As for the rest, I used to have my customized light, which had six LEDs
built in, five of them steady (one with capacitor) and one with a
blinking circuit. You didn't see the blinking while the others were on,
the light was just a bit "unsteady", but the blinking light kept on
blinking for about two hours after the dynamo stopped working (while
riding home in a rainy night). This light was purely for backup - and
that's what it did. But with a modern hub dynamo, there's no longer any
necessity for it.

Dynamos are great if your night use is enough to justify them, but the
same light units are available on battery lights in most cases (which
also allows you to have one good light to move between several bikes
as required, which is much better than having a crappy light on each).

Yesterday I had a cyclist with a flashing rear light in front of me. The
guy was quite crazy, with lots of extra reflectors all over his bike.
But due to the blinking light, I didn't know whether he was further off
or closer than he seemed to be - apart from that it was extremely
annoying, because it disturbed my vision - with my eyes constantly
trying to adjust between bright and dark. If you intend to keep your
flashers, please don't mind my not riding near you.

Yes, flashing rear lights are evil in group riding.



5. Too much of the debate, especially in the States, is conducted as
if the sole responsibility for the cyclist's safety lies with the
automobilist. Yet we're all, except for me, car drivers as well as

No, I'd rather see the automobile as a potentially lethal weapon - cars
kill lots of people all over the world. Adding the fact that (in urban
areas) the car traffic is often more jammed than running, I'd say that
the concept of "car traffic" has proven itself being wrong. So I do
suggest stricter traffic regulation (e.g. lower speed limits for cars),
which would have the main effects:
* traffic is less dangerous (if the restrictions are enforced)
* cycling will be more attractive (the car's speed advantage is reduced)
* people need to start to see that cars are dangerous (not the cyclists
nor the pedestrians nor the children)...

That's the way we need to be moving.
Unfortunately, it's a tough fight when people have so much invested in
motor transport (both personally and as a society).
"I didn't see him" needs to be regarded as an admission of careless
driving - nobody has any business driving a motor vehicle onto any
stretch of road that they can't be sure is clear.





As for your "cyclist is responsible" - I do support your argument as far
that the cyclist is responsible to have working lights, to use common
sense while cycling and to keep to the basic traffic rules (stop on red
light, ...).

If the cyclist learns to cycle well (e.g. vehicular cycling), he/she
should be relatively safe while cycling. It really does depend on the
behaviour of the cyclist - and I do see a lot of "stupid" cyclists, some
of who have little (if any) control over their bike, run red lights,
don't look where they're going or just cycle without lights on the
sidewalk - at top speed...

Once the cyclist behaves well, he/she is very likely to not have an
accident - but then, remember what I said about mandatory bike lanes?

6. Wherever this balance of responsibility lies, it should be clear by
now g that I think flashing lights help, and know that flashing
amber lights front and rear are superior to rear red and front white
flashing lights.

Basically it's a question of "warfare" - if cars have brighter lights,
cyclists want that, too. Then we start with daytime running lights
(which is pretty common by now) and the "german AAA" starts equipping
children with idiotic reflective vests. Actually they (more or less)
demand that children do not walk to school - but do you want to punish
children? Just to allow car drivers to speed? This is crazy - did you
know that a sinificant number of children who have serious accidents sit
in their parents' car while having these accidents? So, shouldn't we
punish cars (- lethal weapon) instead of the children (for whom not
being able to visit a friend may be "real" punishment!)?

Absolutely.
Cycles can never win a lighting battle, and motorists need to be
educated that not everything that they need to watch out for will be
lit - which means the absence of lighting is no excuse when you hit
it.



As for cycling lights, get a good dynamo-driven bike light (these are
quite good). Check your regulations (and if allowed, mount a second
headlight if you want). But please, don't come near me with flashing
lights on a bike.

I think flashers have a place in well streetlit areas, but preferably
as a secondary light.



Actually, most of the people I do see with flashing bike lights would be
better off with some basic lessons in riding a bike or with some common
sense (that surely does not apply to you, but to many riders I do see).

Good lights cost proper money.
So does training.
It's no surprise to find that people who cut costs in one area are
willing to do so in another.



You see, recently someone with a bike helmet was in front of me. He
didn't look where he was going, cycled on the wrong side of the street
and I finally saw him running a red light. He probably thought that he
was safe, because he was wearing a helmet (which he payed money for).
So, my experience is that people like to "buy safety" - but then they
take unnecessary risks in compensation.

I've seen plenty of examples of that.

Sure, buying "more" lights may gain you more safety, but does it really
make you safer or do you just /feel/ safer?

Far better to have good lights than many lights (although a backup is
good, particularly on battery systems).

Ciao...

PS: please don't full-quote again, my newsreader don't like that ;-)

The lights you need to match car headlights are reflectors. Put white
reflective tape in three sections on your wheel rims and you get the
flashing lights while the headlights are upon them. You also need a
big red (legal) or amber rear reflector. I decided to hang the amber
trailer reflector from my saddle loops because the red official one is
good enough for closer proximity.

Andre Jute wrote:
On Feb 15, 7:54 pm, "(PeteCresswell)" wrote:
Per Andre Jute:

Here's an article that would feed those who oppose my method; it's by
an apparently very experienced police instructor.
http://www.policedriving.com/article145.htm
In a local newspaper article last year a state police officer
characterized lights on a vehicle that is parked on the shoulder
as "drunk magnets".
--
PeteCresswell

This guy I refer to distinguishes between ineffective/
counterproductive lights and effective lights. He says that the mess
of flashing blue, red and white lights are, among other things, drunk
magnets, but amber lights work; as evidence he cites falling numbers
of secondary roadside accidents to police and emergency vehicles when
the red/white/blue are switched off and only the amber remains.

In short, red, white and blue bad, amber good.

Here's one mo

"http://www.ledsafetylights.com/safety_light_details.asp?ProductID=85"

THE law enforcement type has a point but it's the greater evil.
If all lights are ..... then what's left are best emergency lights.
amber falls into this latter light groups.
white and or red and blue from Christtmas tree lights seem to be pop
with LET. and are cheerful which is also in the latter grouping ,
left ?
amber flashing fronts are useful on busy dark intersections. Used here
are small rectagular lights once sold thru Nashbar. 6-7 hung on bars,
rack, backpack. In FLA, my passage was often called out with amusment
at the passing show.

Note the busy intersection and what do you see - flashing amber
signals dangerous icebergs port and starboard. White ? White cancells
out as completely negative.

the negative or positive effect is called by med types - consumation -
that is the nervous system has filled with flashing lights to the max
available, brain has noted to X effect, and that's it for the time
being.

try the cranial nerve excercise. to activate cranal nerves, grasp
hands behind back and pull in various directions as isometrics.

the exercise tends to activate the system allowing consumation itself.

On Feb 15, 11:40*am, Bernhard Agthe wrote:
... The
following is the one (and only) legal setup he

- 1 white front light (non-flashing)
- 1 red rear light (non-flashing)
- 1 Dynamo 6V 3W (to power the lights)
- about 15 reflectors:
* *- 1 white in front,
* *- 1 red at the rear,
* *- 1 red at the rear (Z-Reflector),
* *- 8 in the wheels (two per wheel, two sides of the wheel, two wheels),
* *- 4 in the pedals.

All lighting equipment must be approved and be marked with a "K"-Number.

Here in the US, the requirements of the law vary state by state,
although most states are similar. However, even blatant violations by
cyclists are almost always ignored by police. I've never heard of a
cyclist ticketed for even a total lack of lights; I'm sure nobody
would be ticketed for (for example) having only one reflector in each
wheel!

Similarly, I assume that a tourist in Germany (or elsewhere in the EU)
who had some variation on that system would do just fine, am I
correct? I plan on taking a bike to Europe this year, so it does
matter to me.

- Frank Krygowski

On 02/17/2010 02:19 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Feb 15, 11:40 am, Bernhard wrote:
... The
following is the one (and only) legal setup he

- 1 white front light (non-flashing)
- 1 red rear light (non-flashing)
- 1 Dynamo 6V 3W (to power the lights)
- about 15 reflectors:
- 1 white in front,
- 1 red at the rear,
- 1 red at the rear (Z-Reflector),
- 8 in the wheels (two per wheel, two sides of the wheel, two wheels),
- 4 in the pedals.

All lighting equipment must be approved and be marked with a "K"-Number.

Here in the US, the requirements of the law vary state by state,
although most states are similar. However, even blatant violations by
cyclists are almost always ignored by police. I've never heard of a
cyclist ticketed for even a total lack of lights; I'm sure nobody
would be ticketed for (for example) having only one reflector in each
wheel!

Similarly, I assume that a tourist in Germany (or elsewhere in the EU)
who had some variation on that system would do just fine, am I
correct? I plan on taking a bike to Europe this year, so it does
matter to me.

- Frank Krygowski

Along the same lines, does anyone make "suitable" wheel reflectors of
any type? This is more of an academic question than one that has actual
bearing on my life, as they are not required where I live, but if there
were some available that actually stayed put, didn't rattle, etc. I
*might* consider trying them out.

I did put some pieces of reflective tape on the "sidewalls" of some
Deep-Vs on one of my bikes; it looks uber-fredly, but is quite visible
after dark. However, that's not an option for those without
deep-section wheels.

I like the idea of reflective-sidewall tires, but I'm not aware of any
for sale for a price anywhere near the bargain-basement prices for which
one can purchase Paselas...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

datakoll wrote:
THE law enforcement type has a point but it's the greater evil.
If all lights are ..... then what's left are best emergency lights.
amber falls into this latter light groups.
white and or red and blue from Christtmas tree lights seem to be pop
with LET. and are cheerful which is also in the latter grouping ,
left ?
amber flashing fronts are useful on busy dark intersections. Used here
are small rectagular lights once sold thru Nashbar. 6-7 hung on bars,
rack, backpack. In FLA, my passage was often called out with amusment
at the passing show.

Note the busy intersection and what do you see - flashing amber
signals dangerous icebergs port and starboard. White ? White cancells
out as completely negative.

the negative or positive effect is called by med types - consumation -
that is the nervous system has filled with flashing lights to the max
available, brain has noted to X effect, and that's it for the time
being.

try the cranial nerve excercise. to activate cranal nerves, grasp
hands behind back and pull in various directions as isometrics.

the exercise tends to activate the system allowing consumation itself.

The Oracle has spoken.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971