stop all bike paths etc please!!

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 04:04:04 -0800 (PST), Ozark Bicycle
wrote:

On Nov 17, 5:55 am, "Papa Tom" wrote:
I guess the reason I'm not "getting" this is that the bike paths here are
always empty. As cool as they are, they're just too far from anywhere to
attract a lot of people -- especially since most would have to buy racks for
their cars. I say, in New York, we don't need anymore paths. We just need
safe biking roads that lead to them.

If there are enough "safe biking roads", the need for bike paths
disappears.

Hmmm, like in the Netherlands?

In more of the NL than you might like to think...
http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pj...ix/ddbb3-3.jpg and
http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pj...ix/ddbb5-1.jpg are pictures
taken on rural roads in NL, no fietspad in sight, no need for one
either. We'd meet cars on these roads and were treated with the sort of
courtesy that's typically what makes riding in NL safe.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

thanks to all that have responded-prisoner of war--anyone with a dwi should
never be able to drive again--person who sold alcohol to heim/her should
also be persecuted...

i dont know about educating people about bike safety--we have in the
bronx--people wearing hoods like medieval priests--cannot see their face
usually have a pit bull on chain and a shirt that says "**** you you ****ing
****" or just plain "**** you"-- i have never seen them in manhattan--

thanks once again

peter
"Prisoner at War" wrote in message
...
On Nov 16, 7:51 pm, "Papa Tom" wrote:
As a lifelong resident of a town that has gone from "country" to
urban-like
suburb in less than fifty years, I've been torn about bike paths for some
time myself. Yeah, I wish the roads would go back to the way they were
when
I was a kid and I was able to ride them anywhere I wanted to go. And I
wish
drivers and cyclists could figure out how to live together and share the
pavement. But that isn't going to happen around here anytime soon.

Motorists need to realize that they are licensed to drive for a
reason: driving is a ****ing privilege, not a right! The government
needs to emphasize that, too. They need to hammer the concept in when
people take driving lessons, driving tests, apply for licenses, renew
their licenses, pay fines for violating rules (double-parking, idling
engines, etc.)...driving is a right and should be reserved to those
who can operate a vehicle properly.

ANYONE CAUGHT DWI/DUI SHOULD HAVE THEIR LICENSES SUSPENDED FOR TEN
YEARS. SECOND VIOLATION IS A PERMANENT SUSPENSION. DRIVING WITHOUT A
LICENSE SHOULD MEAN AT LEAST HALF A YEAR IN JAIL. NO ****ING
EXCEPTIONS.

That'll solve the problem, guaran-****in'-teed.

I say this as a sometime-motorist, too, of course. Driving is a
privilege, not a right.

Meanwhile, fewer and fewer people here are allowing their kids to even
own
bicycles, let alone ride them anywhere. And I understand why. As an
experienced cyclist who has ridden the same roads on a regular basis for
the
past 35-40 years, I find I'm constantly in life-threatening situations
when
I get out on the road. So more and more, I'm packing my bike into the
car
and driving to bike paths in Westchester, in New Jersey, and right here
on
Long Island. A lot of other Long Islanders are doing the same. For me,
sometimes it's either that - or leave the bike in the garage and go eat a
sandwich.

I've only started exploring the surround environs of NYC, like within
the last three years, so I guess I've been extremely lucky in not
having had any experiences which make me seriously question my safety
out on the road. I think it's a lot of fear-mongering that goes on,
partly for economic reasons (helmet industry), partly for political
reasons (bicycling lobbies), partly due to human nature
(melodramatic)...what we need are draconian laws severely limiting who
gets to drive and under what conditions. Unfortunately, we live in a
"democracy," so-called, where the powerful auto lobby can run over any
attempt at fairness and common decency, whether it involves the
environment or American workers or motorist safety or pedestrian/
bicyclist rights.

Regarding this problem with the police and the laws of the road, I think
there needs to be better education all around. I ran bicycle safety
programs in our local schools for a number of years and always tried to
involve the police. Sadly, I never found one who understood the basic
bicycle laws.

Likewise, I am constantly frustrated by how little people know or CARE to
know about how to ride a bicycle safely in traffic. And why should they,
when the rules of safe automobile driving are so universally ignored?

I think there should be very few rules on how to ride -- or walk! --
in traffic. Driving is a privilege, not a right. It follows then
that pedestrian/bicyclist needs ought to trump in most any situation.
Somebody in the middle of the street? STOP YOUR ****ING CAR. It's
very simple. Period. **** this **** about "sharing" the road...the
road is OURS, OURS TO SHARE -- AS SPACE PERMITS!

The problems between cops and cyclists can be broken down to the basic
components of a fist fight: When two people are arguing and both run out
of
intelligence, the fists inevitably start flying. Similarly, when neither
the cops nor the cyclists know what the hell they are talking about, the
bullying begins...and the cops usually win.

I hate to say it, but because of the auto lobby -- and the fact that
most Americans are fat-assed lazy slobs -- they think cars are among
God's creation and sacred and holy and the Number One Priority when it
comes to public policy.

Against that attitude, anything we suggest is taken as a fanciful
letter to Santa, to be somewhat humored in Christian charity when the
economics presents itself.

Folks like you will go on with your official appeals, all reasonable
and polite, while folks like me will continue to **** show our ass to
the motorists honking behind us; both arms need to be used in a fight.

Folks like you will go on with your official appeals, all reasonable and
polite, while folks like me will continue to **** show our ass to the
motorists honking behind us; both arms need to be used in a fight.

I'm not sure what that means, but it seemed worth repeating.

Anyway, I understand your frustration and anger. However, I don't think we
can overlook cyclists' responsibilities if we're going to trash auto drivers
that way. I see plenty of cyclists causing situations where they - and
other people on the road - can get seriously hurt because of stupid,
irresponsible behavior. If we look at this issue as one that can only be
black or white, things will just go on the same way forever, and cyclists
and peds will continue to lose.

Have you noticed that those Critical Mass things never accomplish anything?

Meanwhile, fewer and fewer people here are allowing their kids to even
own
bicycles, let alone ride them anywhere. And I understand why. As an
experienced cyclist who has ridden the same roads on a regular basis for
the
past 35-40 years, I find I'm constantly in life-threatening situations
when
I get out on the road. So more and more, I'm packing my bike into the
car
and driving to bike paths in Westchester, in New Jersey, and right here
on
Long Island. A lot of other Long Islanders are doing the same. For me,
sometimes it's either that - or leave the bike in the garage and go eat
a
sandwich.

I sympathise with your post.
We ranters must stick together.
A few years ago I flew into Orlando airport to trike around Florida camping.
After 400 miles I gave up and got a rental car.
My experience of triking on the roads and paths was stressfull and
dangerous-to me.
You should move over to Europe or holiday here especially in Holland or
Germany--East Germany has lots of space and brand new cycle facilities.
Ive triked in
Spain-France-Luxemburg-Switzerland-Belgium-Denmark-Holland-Poland-the Canary
Islands and dangerous Crete.
Only Crete is on a level with Florida.
Tam

I'm getting the impression that you're just trolling now, dude. Have I been
had?


"Prisoner at War" wrote in message
...
On Nov 19, 5:46 pm, "Papa Tom" wrote:


I'm not sure what that means, but it seemed worth repeating.

I just meant to applaud your efforts at bicycling advocacy, while
noting that my cruder efforts -- as would be apparent from my vitriol
when talking about such matters -- complement yours in the "bigger
picture" sense of things.

Anyway, I understand your frustration and anger. However, I don't think
we
can overlook cyclists' responsibilities if we're going to trash auto
drivers
that way.

I was also obliquely questioning what "responsibilities" we truly
have. Not to cause accidents, sure, but simply being on the road --
even a highway, for whatever reason -- is not irresponsible of us as
bicyclists. I know that's a radical notion, and I'm not saying that
bicycles should be on highways, but to me it's the kind of violation
that's like jaywalking: no big deal.

Basically, aside from doing what we can to ensure our own safety as
cyclists, I think the onus should be on motorists to exercise the vast
majority of any responsibility involved in safety issues...they're the
ones with the power, as measured by horse-engine, and with greater
power goes greater responsibility, naturally....

I see plenty of cyclists causing situations where they - and
other people on the road - can get seriously hurt because of stupid,
irresponsible behavior.

I'm not sure what irresponsible behavior you might be referring to.
Cycling the wrong way, or on the wrong side of the road? Come on!
That's no big deal; not a crime at all -- the whole point of using a
bicycle for getting around, in fact: freedom!

If you mean sudden turns and swerves, well, motorists do that too --
but motorists should be driving so fast that they can't brake for a
sudden turn or stop. If the rider was a driver in a car, it would
still be the same thing; there's nothing particular to a bicycle or
being a bicyclist involved here.

Frankly, I just don't see how a bicyclist could ever be a fault. I
know it sounds really radical, but my attitude is the road belongs to
pedestrians -- and then bicyclists and skaters -- first and foremost.
Cars are -- should be -- an after-thought. Unfortunately, everything
is organized around cars -- whole neighborhoods are demolished for the
sake of cars being able to speed along on a highway -- such that we
can imagine such a ridiculous notion as "bicyclist responsibility."

The only responsibility a cyclist has is to pedestrians and him or
herself (and other cyclists). Motorists ought to be the ones on the
look-out. The same way most traffic laws assign a much greater
responsibility, if not total responsibility outright, to the motorist
on the "driver's side of an accident," so too should motorists bear
the vast majority of the burden for traffic safety all-around!

If we look at this issue as one that can only be
black or white, things will just go on the same way forever, and cyclists
and peds will continue to lose.

I don't see that we're continuing to lose at all. Indeed, bike paths
are all the rage in urban planning! Drivers are certainly much more
aware of us, and it seems that more and more people are actually
bicycling in the cities. There are many reasons for all these happy
developments, but I don't think being a "radical bicyclist" has hurt
the cause at all. Again, a fighter fights with both arms: the
radicals like me make the respectable get-along types like you seem a
bargain to deal with.

Have you noticed that those Critical Mass things never accomplish
anything?

I don't know how you measure their actions. It took Al Gore many
years before he got his Oscar and Nobel, after all.

Prisoner at War wrote:
...
You morons don't realize that nothing was ever won through dialog
alone...your ****ing paid holidays, your paid sick days, your paid
maternity leave, your ****ing eight-hour workdays, your health
benefits, everything you can think of someone at some point paid for
with more than just talk at a table....

How many jobs in the US have all of the above (or any of the above) now?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"the grinning buddy bear carries a fork." - g.d.

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Prisoner at War wrote:
...
You morons don't realize that nothing was ever won through dialog
alone...your ****ing paid holidays, your paid sick days, your paid
maternity leave, your ****ing eight-hour workdays, your health
benefits, everything you can think of someone at some point paid for
with more than just talk at a table....

How many jobs in the US have all of the above (or any of the above) now?

Jeez, I don't know about any of the above. Isn't that what Congress is for -
to sit at a table and talk about these things? I think they even hold
thousands of hearings in order to get the best possible information before
they decide what to do. The main thing is that we do not want assholes like
'****ing' PW and a liberal-socialist-communist like TS dictating anything to
us.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Prisoner at War wrote:

Who the **** cares about why drivers do what they do. They're
assholes, which is why it's so important to them to drive at 90 miles
an hour on city streets.

I don't drive my car at 90 mph even on 6 lane dual carriageways. I like
to at least /think/ my attitude to how I drive is similar to my attitude
to how I ride.

I find if I treat other road users with consideration, whether I'm on a
bike or in the car, I typically get consideration back. The "us vs.
them" attitude just doesn't help IMHO.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"tam" wrote in message
o.uk...



A few years ago I flew into Orlando airport to trike around Florida
camping.

wow that's commitment.
What would you do if you called ahead to make sure the flight is not
delayed

and it was

mk5000

"For example a download
speed test for my isp which is SBC/Yahoo DSL is at
http://support.sbcglobal.net/dsl/speedtest/ . This sort of speed test
often uses JAVA. "--cwdjrxyz

"Papa Tom" wrote in message
...


People out here will never sit through a class on the rules of safe
cycling.

usually the classes are too far

ok if it is right across the street that is good. At least I won't have to
worry about driving in evening or night light.
I would mapquest the trip and see if there are any alternatives , although I
am doubtful.

Aren't you aware that all of us New Yorkers (especially Long Islanders)
already know everything there is to know about everything?

One of the definite options is you pick a mentor and I know that you have to
figure out a plan of action.

mk5000


"And when the movie starts, it's deceptively quiet. Philip Seymour Hoffman
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Once home, Andy feels that getting back to Brazil and starting all over
again will save their marriage. He sets out on a dangerous course to try and
get them there, involving his younger brother Hank (Ethan Hawke) in a plot
meant to knock off their parents jewelry store"--
http://tragicrighthip.blogspot.com/2...oure-dead.html