VDB admits doping...?

From: "Kyle Legate"

Cool. I'll just package some random DNA with some sterile water and lipids
and move into a bigger apartment.


Isn't that pretty much what a lot of supplement companies do now? You come up
with a product, pay for a few "scientific" studies that show how great it is,
start running ads and raking in the cash.
When they realize that it really isn't doing much, you bring out your next big
supplement and start the cycle all over again.
Bill C

"Kyle Legate" wrote in message ws.com...
TritonRider wrote:
From: "Kyle Legate"

Kyle, what do microbiologists make for a salary? ****, compared to
what they are worth. Selling the promise of benefits, even if you
don't deliver will make them more money in one year than they would
in ten in the lab.

Cool. I'll just package some random DNA with some sterile water and lipids
and move into a bigger apartment.

Yeah, as well as it's ok for you that this arpartment might be located
in say, Shanghai, that might work. I don't think Kurgan has always the
most efficient way to argue his point, or that he has always a point
at all, but you guys should really read up about the large scale
doping experiments done in the DDR or other totalitarian (or whatever
you might call it) regimes. There _will_ be people/groups willing to
invest in performance enhancing "drugs", even if they have just be
"proveen" with mice.

From: (enoch)

Yeah, as well as it's ok for you that this arpartment might be located
in say, Shanghai, that might work. I don't think Kurgan has always the
most efficient way to argue his point, or that he has always a point
at all, but you guys should really read up about the large scale
doping experiments done in the DDR or other totalitarian (or whatever
you might call it) regimes. There _will_ be people/groups willing to
invest in performance enhancing "drugs", even if they have just be
"proveen" with mice.




I never said that I disagreed with him. I think he's right on the money. The
discussion has split into two tracks. You're on the first-Will or wont this
research lead to more effective doping. My opinion is yes, but with a lot of
really nasty accidents too. The second track was that even if the stuff is
never proven effective at all, people will buy it in large quantities, or even
placebos that are linked to the stuff people think the pros are taking. The
best example of this is all the steroid substitute crap that is everywhere.
Bill C

"enoch" wrote in message
om...
"Kyle Legate" wrote in message
ws.com...
TritonRider wrote:
From: "Kyle Legate"

Kyle, what do microbiologists make for a salary? ****, compared to
what they are worth. Selling the promise of benefits, even if you
don't deliver will make them more money in one year than they would
in ten in the lab.

Cool. I'll just package some random DNA with some sterile water and
lipids
and move into a bigger apartment.

Yeah, as well as it's ok for you that this arpartment might be located
in say, Shanghai, that might work. I don't think Kurgan has always the
most efficient way to argue his point,



Dumbass -

You are correct, I am not being very clear in this thread.

Nick and Legate have been making the contention that genetic vaccines are
still years away from being proven in clinical trials, but that doesn't
factor into my position at all.

The on the fringe athletes aren't going to care about those clinical trials
or side effects and they won't be getting the stuff from a normal lab.

Like Ben Johnson's doctor, from Haiti (or Jamaica, I can't remember).

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in message
Dumbass -

You are correct, I am not being very clear in this thread.

Nick and Legate have been making the contention that genetic vaccines are
still years away from being proven in clinical trials, but that doesn't
factor into my position at all.

The on the fringe athletes aren't going to care about those clinical trials
or side effects and they won't be getting the stuff from a normal lab.

Like Ben Johnson's doctor, from Haiti (or Jamaica, I can't remember).


Like Dario Frigo's "Hemassist" dealer at the airport?

"Carl Sundquist" wrote in message
...

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in
message
Dumbass -

You are correct, I am not being very clear in this thread.

Nick and Legate have been making the contention that genetic vaccines are
still years away from being proven in clinical trials, but that doesn't
factor into my position at all.

The on the fringe athletes aren't going to care about those clinical
trials
or side effects and they won't be getting the stuff from a normal lab.

Like Ben Johnson's doctor, from Haiti (or Jamaica, I can't remember).


Like Dario Frigo's "Hemassist" dealer at the airport?



You got it.

Surely there will be bogus stuff going out, but there's going to be some
enterprising lab rat who's going to send out something that works too (with
unknown side effects).

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in
message

Dumbass -

Just as with hgh, the type of athletes who will try the genetic vaccine
will
accept the risks of the potential side-effects you mention.

That is a ridiculous argument. Every time someone tries to explain that it
is virtually impossible to gain benefits, you say, "Well, that does not mean
they won't try".

But you were talking about RESULTS when you started the thread, not whether
someone will start playing with it. Who cares if there are a few
Frankenstiens coming? That has nothing to do with sports performance, unless
a top athlete tries it and ruins his health.

"Carl Sundquist" wrote in message
...

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in
message
Dumbass -

You are correct, I am not being very clear in this thread.

Nick and Legate have been making the contention that genetic vaccines
are
still years away from being proven in clinical trials, but that doesn't
factor into my position at all.

The on the fringe athletes aren't going to care about those clinical
trials
or side effects and they won't be getting the stuff from a normal lab.

Like Ben Johnson's doctor, from Haiti (or Jamaica, I can't remember).


Like Dario Frigo's "Hemassist" dealer at the airport?


Exactly. And what all came from that? Nothing performance wise. It was a
case of intent. You are arguing my point.

"Nick Burns" wrote in message
m...

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in
message

Dumbass -

Just as with hgh, the type of athletes who will try the genetic vaccine
will
accept the risks of the potential side-effects you mention.

That is a ridiculous argument. Every time someone tries to explain that it
is virtually impossible to gain benefits, you say, "Well, that does not
mean
they won't try".

But you were talking about RESULTS when you started the thread, not whether
someone will start playing with it. Who cares if there are a few
Frankenstiens coming? That has nothing to do with sports performance,
unless
a top athlete tries it and ruins his health.


Dumbass -

They'll be able to get results.

What differentiates someone like Lance Armstrong from you and me?

Attitude certainly, but what else? genetics.


http://maxmag.maxsportsinternational...e28/28sci1.htm

With relatively few old-timers showing an inclination to pump iron three
times a week for the rest of their of lives, the potential market for an
alternative muscle-building drug is clearly enormous. Science finally appears
close to creating one.

In separate experiments over the past couple of years at the University of
Pennsylvania Medical Center in Philadelphia, and University College Medical
School in London, as well as the Copenhagen Muscle Research Center in Sweden,
researchers have tested muscle-building vaccines based on engineered genes.
Injected into mice, these vaccines have boosted muscle mass in the animals
legs by 15 to 27%. Amazingly, these increases were measurable in only a month
or so and did not require any exercise at all! Many muscle researchers
believe that the first human trials will occur within the next couple of
years. This could also be a major breakthrough for the treatment of a host of
degenerative muscle diseases, including the various forms of muscular
dystrophy.

On the down side, it takes little imagination to see the possibilities for
abuse of the vaccines by healthy young athletes in power sports such as
football, weight lifting, sprinting and short-distance swimming. Compared
with anabolic steroids, a vaccine based on an engineered gene would offer
some major advantages. It would need to be administered only one time, rather
than periodically, and it would be essentially undetectable in the body.

MUSCLE PHYSIOLOGY 101

A single muscle cell consists of a membrane, many scattered nuclei that
contains genes and thousands of inner strands called myofibrils. Filling the
inside of muscle fiber, the myofibrils can be as long as the fiber and are
the part that enables the cells to contract forcefully in response to nerve
impulses. The actual contraction is accomplished by the myofibril tiny
component units which are called sarcomeres. Within each sarcomere are two
proteins, called myosin and actin, whose interaction causes contraction of
the muscle. Basically, during contraction a sarcomere is shortened like a
collapsing telescope, as the actin filaments at each end of a central myosin
filament slide toward to the myosin's center.

Muscle cells, also known as fibers cannot split themselves to form completely
new fibers. A muscle can become more massive only when its individual fibers
become thicker. What causes this thickening is the creation of new
myofibrils. The mechanical stresses that exercise exerts on tendons and other
structures connected to the muscle trigger different biochemical pathways
that ultimately cause the muscle cells to make more proteins.

Enormous amounts of these proteins, chiefly myosin and actin, are needed as
the cell produces additional myofibrils. As muscle cells cannot divide, the
new nuclei are donated by so-called satellite cells, which are scattered
among the many nuclei on the surface of a skeletal muscle fiber. Satellite
cells proliferate in response to the stresses and wear and tear of exercise.
As they multiply, some remain as satellites on the fiber, but others become
incorporated into it. With these additional nuclei, the fiber is able to turn
out more proteins and create more myofibrils.

Rigorous exercise inflicts tiny "micro tears" in muscle fibers. The damaged
area attracts the satellite cells, which incorporate themselves into the
muscle tissue and begin producing proteins to fill the gap. Gradually, as
more micro tears are repaired in this manner, the overall number of nuclei
grows, as does the fiber itself (i.e. muscle enlarges).

One component of the myosin molecule, the so-called heavy chain, determines
the functional characteristics of the muscle fiber. In an adult, this heavy
chain exists in three different forms, known as isoforms. These isoforms are
designated Type I, Type IIa, and Type IIx, as are the fibers that contain
them.

Type I fibers are also known as slow fibers; Type IIa and IIx are referred to
as fast fibers. The fibers are called slow and fast for good reason; the
maximum contraction velocity of a single Type I fiber is approximately 1/10th
of every Type IIx fiber. The velocity of Type IIa fibers are somewhere
between those of Type I and IIx. Slow fibers depend more on relatively
efficient aerobic exercise where as the fast fibers depend more on anaerobic
exercise. Thus, slow fibers are important for endurance activities and sports
such as long distance running, cycling, or swimming, where as fast fibers are
key to power pursuits such as weight lifting and sprinting.

The "average" healthy adult has relatively equal numbers of slow and fast
fibers in say the quadriceps muscle of the thigh. But as a species, humans
show a great variation in this regard. A person with a predominance of slow
fibers would probably become an accomplished marathoner but would never get
anywhere as a sprinter or power lifter; the opposite would be true of a
person with the predominance of fast fibers.

MUSCLE CONVERSION

When healthy muscles are loaded heavily and repeatedly, as in weight training
programs, the number of fast IIx fibers declines as they convert to fast IIa
fibers. In those fibers, the nuclei stop expressing the IIx gene and begin
expressing the IIa. If vigorous exercise continues for about a month or more,
the IIx fibers will completely transform to IIa fibers. At the same time, the
fibers increase their production of proteins, becoming thicker (hypertrophy).

CONVERTING SLOW TO FAST?

Is it possible to convert the slower Type I fibers to faster Type II fibers?
In the early 1990's there was an indication that a rigorous exercise regimen
could convert slow fibers to fast IIa fibers. Researchers at the University
of Copenhagen Muscle Research Center suggested that a program of vigorous
weight training supplemented with other forms of anaerobic exercise converts
not only Type IIx fibers to IIa, but also Type I fibers to IIa. If a certain
type of exertion can convert some Type I fibers to IIa, we might naturally
wonder if some other kind can convert IIa to I. It may be possible, but so
far no link in human training studies has unambiguously demonstrated such a
shift. It is true, star endurance athletes such as long-distance runners and
swimmers, cyclists and cross-country skiers generally have remarkably high
proportions (up to 95%, as mentioned earlier) of slow Type I fibers in their
major muscle groups, such as in the legs. Yet at present we do not know
whether these athletes were born with such a high percentage Type I fibers
and gravitated toward sports that take advantage of unusual inborn traits or
whether they very gradually increased the proportion of Type I fibers in
their muscles as they trained over a period of many months or years.

Researchers have found that hypertrophy from resistance training enlarges
Type II fibers twice as much as it does type I fibers. Thus, weight training
can increase the cross-sectional area of the muscle covered by fast fibers
without changing the relative ratio between the number of slow and faster
fibers in the muscle. It is the relative cross-sectional area of the fast and
slow fiber that determines the functional characteristics of the entire
muscle. The more area covered by fast fibers, the fast and more powerful the
overall muscle will be. So a sprinter at least has the option of altering the
characteristics of his or her leg muscles by exercising them with weights to
increase the relative cross section of fast fibers.

THE ERA OF GENETIC MANIPULATION

Although certain types of fiber conversion, such as IIa to I appear to be
difficult to bring about through exercise, the time is rapidly approaching
when researchers do have the capability to accomplish such conversions easily
through genetic techniques. Such genetic manipulations, most likely in the
form of vaccines that insert artificial genes into the nuclei of muscle
cells, will almost certainly be the performance enhancing drugs of the
future. The tiny snippets of genetic material and the proteins that gene
therapy will leave behind in the athletes muscle cells may be difficult, if
not will be impossible, to identify as foreign.

Gene therapy is now being researched intensively in most developed countries
for a host of very good reasons. Instead of treating the deficiencies by
injecting drugs, doctors will be able to prescribe genetic treatments that
will induce the bodies own protein-making machinery to produce the proteins
needed to combat illness. Like ordinary genes, the artificial gene consists
of DNA. It can be delivered to the body in several ways. Suppose the gene is
encoded for one of the many signaling proteins or hormones (testosterone or
growth hormone) that stimulate muscle growth. The approach would be to inject
the DNA via vaccine into the muscle. The muscle fibers would then take up the
DNA and add it to the normal pool of genes.

This method is not very efficient yet, so researchers often use viruses to
carry the gene payload into a cells nuclei. A virus is essentially a
collection of genes packed in a protein capsule that is able to bind to a
cell and inject the genes. Scientists replace the viruses own genes with the
artificial gene (i.e. the muscle growth stimulator gene), which the virus
will then efficiently deliver to the cells in the body.

GET PUMPED THE EASY WAY

It is easy to see how the narcissist would find the drug irresistible. A
vaccine to build muscle mainly where it was injected, making it possible for
even the lazy and uncoordinated to sculpt their bodies by doing nothing more
strenuous than lifting a hypodermic needle. Big biceps, nice calves and big
bulging pecs would all be just a few injections away. Of course, an instant
physique of this kind would not come without a physiological price. To
improve performance or look really buff, athletes and body builders would
probably need to take considerably larger doses than what doctors will
prescribe for therapy. Thus, they would probably suffer some of the already
known or suspected side effects for abuse of IGF-1, such as an enlarged heart
and possibly cardiac arrest.

THE GENETICALLY ENGINEERED SUPER ATHLETE

These techniques will be abused by athletes in the future. Sports officials
will be hard-pressed to detect the abuse, because the artificial genes will
produce proteins that in many cases are identical to the normal proteins.
Furthermore, only one injection will be needed, minimizing the risk of
disclosure. It is true that officials would be able to detect the DNA of the
artificial gene itself, but to do so they would have to know the sequence of
the artificial gene, and the esters would have to obtain a sample of the
tissue containing the DNA. Today, however, biopsies are not permitted as part
of a routine anti-doping test. For all intents and purposes, gene doping will
be undetectable.

"Nick Burns" wrote in message
m...

"Carl Sundquist" wrote in message
...

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in
message
Dumbass -

You are correct, I am not being very clear in this thread.

Nick and Legate have been making the contention that genetic vaccines
are
still years away from being proven in clinical trials, but that doesn't
factor into my position at all.

The on the fringe athletes aren't going to care about those clinical
trials
or side effects and they won't be getting the stuff from a normal lab.

Like Ben Johnson's doctor, from Haiti (or Jamaica, I can't remember).


Like Dario Frigo's "Hemassist" dealer at the airport?


Exactly. And what all came from that? Nothing performance wise. It was a
case of intent. You are arguing my point.


Dumbass -

http://maxmag.maxsportsinternational...e28/28sci1.htm

With relatively few old-timers showing an inclination to pump iron three
times a week for the rest of their of lives, the potential market for an
alternative muscle-building drug is clearly enormous. Science finally appears
close to creating one.

In separate experiments over the past couple of years at the University of
Pennsylvania Medical Center in Philadelphia, and University College Medical
School in London, as well as the Copenhagen Muscle Research Center in Sweden,
researchers have tested muscle-building vaccines based on engineered genes.
Injected into mice, these vaccines have boosted muscle mass in the animals
legs by 15 to 27%. Amazingly, these increases were measurable in only a month
or so and did not require any exercise at all! Many muscle researchers
believe that the first human trials will occur within the next couple of
years. This could also be a major breakthrough for the treatment of a host of
degenerative muscle diseases, including the various forms of muscular
dystrophy.

On the down side, it takes little imagination to see the possibilities for
abuse of the vaccines by healthy young athletes in power sports such as
football, weight lifting, sprinting and short-distance swimming. Compared
with anabolic steroids, a vaccine based on an engineered gene would offer
some major advantages. It would need to be administered only one time, rather
than periodically, and it would be essentially undetectable in the body.

MUSCLE PHYSIOLOGY 101

A single muscle cell consists of a membrane, many scattered nuclei that
contains genes and thousands of inner strands called myofibrils. Filling the
inside of muscle fiber, the myofibrils can be as long as the fiber and are
the part that enables the cells to contract forcefully in response to nerve
impulses. The actual contraction is accomplished by the myofibril tiny
component units which are called sarcomeres. Within each sarcomere are two
proteins, called myosin and actin, whose interaction causes contraction of
the muscle. Basically, during contraction a sarcomere is shortened like a
collapsing telescope, as the actin filaments at each end of a central myosin
filament slide toward to the myosin's center.

Muscle cells, also known as fibers cannot split themselves to form completely
new fibers. A muscle can become more massive only when its individual fibers
become thicker. What causes this thickening is the creation of new
myofibrils. The mechanical stresses that exercise exerts on tendons and other
structures connected to the muscle trigger different biochemical pathways
that ultimately cause the muscle cells to make more proteins.

Enormous amounts of these proteins, chiefly myosin and actin, are needed as
the cell produces additional myofibrils. As muscle cells cannot divide, the
new nuclei are donated by so-called satellite cells, which are scattered
among the many nuclei on the surface of a skeletal muscle fiber. Satellite
cells proliferate in response to the stresses and wear and tear of exercise.
As they multiply, some remain as satellites on the fiber, but others become
incorporated into it. With these additional nuclei, the fiber is able to turn
out more proteins and create more myofibrils.

Rigorous exercise inflicts tiny "micro tears" in muscle fibers. The damaged
area attracts the satellite cells, which incorporate themselves into the
muscle tissue and begin producing proteins to fill the gap. Gradually, as
more micro tears are repaired in this manner, the overall number of nuclei
grows, as does the fiber itself (i.e. muscle enlarges).

One component of the myosin molecule, the so-called heavy chain, determines
the functional characteristics of the muscle fiber. In an adult, this heavy
chain exists in three different forms, known as isoforms. These isoforms are
designated Type I, Type IIa, and Type IIx, as are the fibers that contain
them.

Type I fibers are also known as slow fibers; Type IIa and IIx are referred to
as fast fibers. The fibers are called slow and fast for good reason; the
maximum contraction velocity of a single Type I fiber is approximately 1/10th
of every Type IIx fiber. The velocity of Type IIa fibers are somewhere
between those of Type I and IIx. Slow fibers depend more on relatively
efficient aerobic exercise where as the fast fibers depend more on anaerobic
exercise. Thus, slow fibers are important for endurance activities and sports
such as long distance running, cycling, or swimming, where as fast fibers are
key to power pursuits such as weight lifting and sprinting.

The "average" healthy adult has relatively equal numbers of slow and fast
fibers in say the quadriceps muscle of the thigh. But as a species, humans
show a great variation in this regard. A person with a predominance of slow
fibers would probably become an accomplished marathoner but would never get
anywhere as a sprinter or power lifter; the opposite would be true of a
person with the predominance of fast fibers.

MUSCLE CONVERSION

When healthy muscles are loaded heavily and repeatedly, as in weight training
programs, the number of fast IIx fibers declines as they convert to fast IIa
fibers. In those fibers, the nuclei stop expressing the IIx gene and begin
expressing the IIa. If vigorous exercise continues for about a month or more,
the IIx fibers will completely transform to IIa fibers. At the same time, the
fibers increase their production of proteins, becoming thicker (hypertrophy).

CONVERTING SLOW TO FAST?

Is it possible to convert the slower Type I fibers to faster Type II fibers?
In the early 1990's there was an indication that a rigorous exercise regimen
could convert slow fibers to fast IIa fibers. Researchers at the University
of Copenhagen Muscle Research Center suggested that a program of vigorous
weight training supplemented with other forms of anaerobic exercise converts
not only Type IIx fibers to IIa, but also Type I fibers to IIa. If a certain
type of exertion can convert some Type I fibers to IIa, we might naturally
wonder if some other kind can convert IIa to I. It may be possible, but so
far no link in human training studies has unambiguously demonstrated such a
shift. It is true, star endurance athletes such as long-distance runners and
swimmers, cyclists and cross-country skiers generally have remarkably high
proportions (up to 95%, as mentioned earlier) of slow Type I fibers in their
major muscle groups, such as in the legs. Yet at present we do not know
whether these athletes were born with such a high percentage Type I fibers
and gravitated toward sports that take advantage of unusual inborn traits or
whether they very gradually increased the proportion of Type I fibers in
their muscles as they trained over a period of many months or years.

Researchers have found that hypertrophy from resistance training enlarges
Type II fibers twice as much as it does type I fibers. Thus, weight training
can increase the cross-sectional area of the muscle covered by fast fibers
without changing the relative ratio between the number of slow and faster
fibers in the muscle. It is the relative cross-sectional area of the fast and
slow fiber that determines the functional characteristics of the entire
muscle. The more area covered by fast fibers, the fast and more powerful the
overall muscle will be. So a sprinter at least has the option of altering the
characteristics of his or her leg muscles by exercising them with weights to
increase the relative cross section of fast fibers.

THE ERA OF GENETIC MANIPULATION

Although certain types of fiber conversion, such as IIa to I appear to be
difficult to bring about through exercise, the time is rapidly approaching
when researchers do have the capability to accomplish such conversions easily
through genetic techniques. Such genetic manipulations, most likely in the
form of vaccines that insert artificial genes into the nuclei of muscle
cells, will almost certainly be the performance enhancing drugs of the
future. The tiny snippets of genetic material and the proteins that gene
therapy will leave behind in the athletes muscle cells may be difficult, if
not will be impossible, to identify as foreign.

Gene therapy is now being researched intensively in most developed countries
for a host of very good reasons. Instead of treating the deficiencies by
injecting drugs, doctors will be able to prescribe genetic treatments that
will induce the bodies own protein-making machinery to produce the proteins
needed to combat illness. Like ordinary genes, the artificial gene consists
of DNA. It can be delivered to the body in several ways. Suppose the gene is
encoded for one of the many signaling proteins or hormones (testosterone or
growth hormone) that stimulate muscle growth. The approach would be to inject
the DNA via vaccine into the muscle. The muscle fibers would then take up the
DNA and add it to the normal pool of genes.

This method is not very efficient yet, so researchers often use viruses to
carry the gene payload into a cells nuclei. A virus is essentially a
collection of genes packed in a protein capsule that is able to bind to a
cell and inject the genes. Scientists replace the viruses own genes with the
artificial gene (i.e. the muscle growth stimulator gene), which the virus
will then efficiently deliver to the cells in the body.

GET PUMPED THE EASY WAY

It is easy to see how the narcissist would find the drug irresistible. A
vaccine to build muscle mainly where it was injected, making it possible for
even the lazy and uncoordinated to sculpt their bodies by doing nothing more
strenuous than lifting a hypodermic needle. Big biceps, nice calves and big
bulging pecs would all be just a few injections away. Of course, an instant
physique of this kind would not come without a physiological price. To
improve performance or look really buff, athletes and body builders would
probably need to take considerably larger doses than what doctors will
prescribe for therapy. Thus, they would probably suffer some of the already
known or suspected side effects for abuse of IGF-1, such as an enlarged heart
and possibly cardiac arrest.

THE GENETICALLY ENGINEERED SUPER ATHLETE

These techniques will be abused by athletes in the future. Sports officials
will be hard-pressed to detect the abuse, because the artificial genes will
produce proteins that in many cases are identical to the normal proteins.
Furthermore, only one injection will be needed, minimizing the risk of
disclosure. It is true that officials would be able to detect the DNA of the
artificial gene itself, but to do so they would have to know the sequence of
the artificial gene, and the esters would have to obtain a sample of the
tissue containing the DNA. Today, however, biopsies are not permitted as part
of a routine anti-doping test. For all intents and purposes, gene doping will
be undetectable.