VDB admits doping...?

"Nick Burns" wrote in message
m...

"TritonRider" wrote in message
...
This is the most telling part of this article for me:

snip
Promising though these results appear, gene therapy may not be risk-free.
Last autumn, an 18-year-old patient died after receiving gene therapy for
a
rare liver ailment, delivered via an adenovirus. It is still uncertain
what
went wrong, but scientists are anxiously re-examining the safety of gene
therapy in the light of this incident.

Unless safety turns out to be an insuperable problem, we could see
clinical
trials of epo gene therapy within the next few years. And if the trials
prove
successful, athletes would inevitably be tempted to hike up their
hematocrit - and thus their endurance - with a single injection.

Well, yeah. Here is the key statement:

*if the trials prove successful*

Call me when that happens, then we can talk.



Dumbass -

They've gotten it to work in mice and primates.

A genetic vaccine becoming useful for performance enhancement is inevitable,
just as it was inevitable that some drugs became useful for performance
enhancement. It will happen well before the *next* Athens Olympics.

I'd be willing to bet a lot of money on it. How about you?

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in
message

I'd be willing to bet a lot of money on it. How about you?

Sure. Name the bet.

"Nick Burns" wrote in message
m...

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in
message

I'd be willing to bet a lot of money on it. How about you?

Sure. Name the bet.



That it will happen before the *next* Athens Olympics (the next time it's
held in Athens after 2004)?



If that's correct, then my proposal is:


$1000, payable by paypal.


If genetic vaccines are used before then, you owe me, on the spot. If not,
then I pay you the day of the Opening Ceremonies of the 20?? Athens Olympics.

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in
message et...

"Nick Burns" wrote in message
m...

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in
message

I'd be willing to bet a lot of money on it. How about you?

Sure. Name the bet.



That it will happen before the *next* Athens Olympics (the next time it's
held in Athens after 2004)?



If that's correct, then my proposal is:


$1000, payable by paypal.


If genetic vaccines are used before then, you owe me, on the spot. If not,
then I pay you the day of the Opening Ceremonies of the 20?? Athens
Olympics.

I don't care when they are used, I claim they won't do any good until then.
That is what I have said all along.

"Nick Burns" wrote in message
m...

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in
message et...

"Nick Burns" wrote in message
m...

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in
message

I'd be willing to bet a lot of money on it. How about you?

Sure. Name the bet.



That it will happen before the *next* Athens Olympics (the next time it's
held in Athens after 2004)?



If that's correct, then my proposal is:


$1000, payable by paypal.


If genetic vaccines are used before then, you owe me, on the spot. If
not,
then I pay you the day of the Opening Ceremonies of the 20?? Athens
Olympics.

I don't care when they are used, I claim they won't do any good until then.
That is what I have said all along.



I'd make that bet.

The problem is verification. Genetic vaccines (right now) are not detectable.

That's pretty amazing to me that you could read that article about changing
the EPO gene (raising the hct as high as 70%) and think that it's impossible
for a genetic vaccine to have a significant impact on performance.

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in
message

I'd make that bet.

The problem is verification. Genetic vaccines (right now) are not
detectable.

That's pretty amazing to me that you could read that article about
changing
the EPO gene (raising the hct as high as 70%) and think that it's
impossible
for a genetic vaccine to have a significant impact on performance.

Call me a skeptic.

"Nick Burns" wrote in message endurance - with a single injection.

Well, yeah. Here is the key statement:

*if the trials prove successful*

Call me when that happens, then we can talk.

From "Hormonal doping and androgenization of athletes: a secret
program of the German Democratic Republic government"
http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/full/43/7/1262
which is a _very_ interesting article btw.:

"""
Mestanolone, which was available only as an experimental preparation
from the research institute ZIMET, was also given to female gymnasts
and handball and volleyball players (e.g. (44)) without having been
approved for administration to humans, not even in clinical phase I
trials. Höppner reported it to the Stasi as something he was not
willing to be held responsible for. However, the person responsible
for the illegal use of STS 646 and other steroids, a pharmacology
professor, was even honored for his supportive role in the GDR doping
system (32).
"""

See? If the system is unscrupulous enough, and has enough resources,
they will just try it. If you read said article, you'll see more
informations proofing the point that the GDR system often didn't
bother to proof anything before starting experiments on (also minor)
humans.

Kyle Legate wrote:
Maybe by the _next_ Athens Olympics, but not these ones. The technology
is not there yet. What you quoted was an ill-informed piece of fluff.



I have a feeling Kurgmeister is right.

Tetracycline induceable systems for regulated expression are showing
promise. Adeno associated vectors can be made to integrate into the
genome, or to just transiently infect:




DNA Cell Biol. 2002 Dec;21(12):895-913. Related Articles, Links


Adenovirus and adeno-associated virus vectors.

Lai CM, Lai YK, Rakoczy PE.

Centre for Ophthalmology and Visual Science, University of Western
Australia, Nedlands, Western Australia.

Recombinant adenovirus (rAd) and recombinant adeno-associated virus
(rAAV) are among the most extensively used vectors in gene therapy
studies to date. These two vectors share some similar features such as a
broad host range and ability to infect both proliferating and quiescent
cells. However, they also possess their own unique set of properties
that render them particularly attractive for gene therapy applications.
rAd vectors can accommodate larger inserts, mediate transient but high
levels of protein expression, and can be easily produced at high titers.
Development of gutted rAd vectors has further increased the cloning
capacity of these vectors. The gaining popularity of rAAV use in gene
therapy can be attributed to its lack of pathogenicity and added safety
due to its replication defectiveness, and its ability to mediate
long-term expression in a variety of tissues. Site-specific integration,
as occurs with wild-type AAV, will be a unique and valuable feature if
incorporated into rAAV vectors, further improving their safety. This
paper describes these properties of rAd and rAAV vectors, and discusses
further development and vector improvements that continue to extend the
utility of these vectors, such as cell retargeting by capsid
modification, differential transduction by use of serotypes, and
extension of the cloning capacity of rAAV vectors by dual vector
heterodimerization.


Hum Gene Ther. 2003 Sep 1;14(13):1265-77.

Tight positive regulation of transgene expression by a single adenovirus
vector containing the rtTA and tTS expression cassettes in separate
genome regions.

Mizuguchi H, Xu ZL, Sakurai F, Mayumi T, Hayakawa T.

Division of Cellular and Gene Therapy Products, National Institute of
Health Sciences, Tokyo 158-8501, Japan.

We previously developed single adenovirus (Ad) vectors that contained
the components for a tetracycline-regulatable gene-expression system
in the E1 and E3 deletion regions, and showed that the Ad vectors
containing the tet-on system exhibit a much inferior regulation of
transgene expression than those containing the tet-off system. In many
cases, the tet-on system may be preferable because of its positive
regulation of transgene expression. To this end, in the present study,
by introducing the latest generation reverse tetracycline-responsive
transcriptional activator (rtTA2s-M2 or rtTA2s-S2) and the
tetracycline-controlled transcriptional silencer (tTS) into the
original tet-on system, we constructed various modified Ad-mediated
tet-on systems. Among them, the novel single Ad vector, which
contained three heterologous gene-expression cassettes of the gene of
interest, rtTA2s-S2, and tTS in the E1 deletion region, the E3
deletion region, and the region between E4 and 3'ITR, respectively,
displayed vastly improved doxycycline-inducible gene expression in
terms of low basal expression, high induced expression, and high
responsiveness to doxycycline both in vitro and in vivo. These results
also suggest that the low responsiveness to doxycycline may explain
why the original tet-on system in the context of the Ad vector is not
effective in vivo. This is the first report describing the cloning of
three heterologous gene-expression cassettes into three separate
regions of the E1/E3-deleted Ad genome. This improved Ad-mediated
tet-on system might be useful for gene therapy and greatly facilitate
the analyses of gene function.

PMID: 12952598 [PubMed - in process]



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Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
"Kyle Legate" wrote in message
s.com...


Yack yack yack, you've already posted this in it's entirety, you
don't have to do it again. What I would appreciate more is a
reference to the peer reviewed literature from the groups mentioned
above.

After the scientists injected the virus into the
animals' muscles, it infiltrated their cells, inserting the epo gene
and spurring the cells to pump out the protein. This boosted mouse
hematocrits (the proportion of the blood volume made up of red blood
cells) from 49 per cent to 81 per cent, while the monkeys'
hematocrits rose from 40 per cent to 70 per cent or more (Human Gene
Therapy, vol 8, p 1797). A single injection elevated hematocrits for
over a year in the mice and for 12 weeks in the monkeys.

Researchers at the biotech company Chiron in Emeryville, California,
reported similar results in a 1998 trial that used AAVs to deliver
the epo gene to two baboons (Gene Therapy, vol 5, p 665). After 10
weeks, their hematocrits had risen from 38 per cent and 40 per cent
to 62 and 75 per cent, respectively, and stayed at those levels for
the entire 28 weeks of the study.

Read this again and tell me if it's a feasible approach in humans. My
original questions all still stand, and you have made no effort to answer
them.

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
"Kyle Legate" wrote in message
s.com...
Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

The on the fringe athletes aren't going to care about those clinical
trials or side effects and they won't be getting the stuff from a
normal lab.

Where are they going to get it from, then? You're talking about a
highly technical endeavor here (creating a functional gene vaccine);
it won't be available from a drug store or a family doctor.


Dumbass -

Where do they get EPO from? The drug store or the family doctor?

Dumbass -

They get EPO from a drug store. But you will not be able to obtain an
engineered virus from a drug store. Once again you fail to answer my
question and attempt to steer the discussion away from your failure by
asking an unrelated question.